Debating Question

Well, since the rules say you have to be Messianic to debate, I would have to ask how you classify yourself. Would you say that you lean more toward Messianic theology, or Christian?

Alot of people come in here under the guise of just wanting to learn.

Unfortunately what I see from the majority is they do not want to learn, rather they would point out scriptures that seemingly trample under foot the beliefs of Messianics.

When they are questioned or rebutted, they utterly ignore that which conflicts with their doctrine and take offense claiming oppression saying they only wanted to learn and our comments have proved to them that MJ is not for them.

But, thats just an observation of mine.

The biggest concern is that we don't want anything to turn into an inter-denominational debate.

However, and this is just my opinion, it seems that you may be at a point where debating Messianic Judaism may not be in your best interest. I'd definitely recommend asking questions and joining in on discussions, though.

Heck, it seems like most of the reading, etc., that I've done over the last 6 months has been about nothing but MJ, and I still don't feel qualified to debate anything, and I'm a moderator here!

Bruce S said:

Here is one.

When I went into the Synagogue I put on the head covering, Kippya [?] and grabbed a prayer shawl too. I was wondering why SOME had their heads covered and a shawl, and others didn't. Is there a proper protocol for these things?

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May I ask why you felt inclined to do so if you saw that not all were? Especially since you did not and still do not understand the meaning, tradition or Mitzvot behind the one?

I am not trying to be mean here Bruce but I would warn you to be aware of doing anything without understanding it first. For example if you were to go into a Catholic church and you saw those in front of you dipping their hands in the "Holy water" and crossing themselves, would you do the same before knowing the meaning behind it?

I make talliot and also tie tzitzit and will be happy to explain both to you as well as the mitzvot ( commandment) concerning them, I just would like to have you answer my above questions first.

Here's what http://www.jewfaq.org had to say about the tallit (prayer shawl).

The Torah also commands us to wear tzitzit (fringes) at the corners of our garments as a reminder of the mitzvot. Num. 15:37-41. There is a complex procedure for tying the knots of the tzitzit, filled with religious and numerological significance.


The mitzvah to wear tzitzit only applies to four-cornered garments, which were common in biblical times but are not common anymore. To fulfill this mitzvah, adult men wear a four-cornered shawl called a tallit (pictured above) during morning services, along with the tefillin. Strictly observant Jewish men commonly wear a special four-cornered garment, similar to a poncho, called a tallit katan ("little tallit"), so that they will have the opportunity to fulfill this important mitzvah all day long. The tallit katan is worn under the shirt, with the tzitzit hanging out so they can be seen. There is no particular religious significance to the tallit (shawl) itself, other than the fact that it holds the tzitzit (fringes) on its corners. There are also very few religious requirements with regard to the design of the tallit. The tallit must be long enough to be worn over the shoulders (as a shawl), not just around the neck (as a scarf), to fulfill the requirement that the tzitzis be on a "garment." It may be made of any material, but must not be made of a combination of wool and linen, because that combination is forbidden on any clothing. (Lev. 19:19; Deut. 22:11). Most tallitot are white with navy or black stripes along the shorter ends, as in the illustration above. They also commonly have an artistic motif of some kind along the top long end (the part that goes against your neck). This motif is referred to as an atarah (crown). There is no particular religious significance to the atarah; it simply tells you which end is up! It is quite common, however, to write the words of the blessing for putting on the tallit on the atarah, so you can read the blessing while you are putting the tallit on. If a blessing is written on your tallit, you should be careful not to bring the tallit into the bathroom with you! Sacred writings should not be brought into the bathroom. For this reason, many synagogues have a tallit rack outside of the bathroom.

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(((For example if you were to go into a Catholic church and you saw those in front of you dipping their hands in the "Holy water" and crossing themselves, would you do the same before knowing the meaning behind it?))))

Good example.

Hey Bruce, I sure hope that you didn't take that the wrong way, it was not meant to be confrontational, I was justing wondering what your motivation was. Now donning a kippot ( or yalmulke - yiddish) to go to service, I believe was the correct thing to do as it shows your respect for where you were and with whom you were worshipping and that is admirable. There are many in my synagogue that dont' do that even after coming for months and I don't think that is right.

Now as far as the Tzitzi. These are the "fringes" on the edges of the Tallit, or prayer shawl. Now the commandments ( mitzvot) regarding this are for a few things, I will make it simple and break it down for those unfamiliar with this.

1. You are to tie the fringes ( tzitzit) to your garment yourself

2. There are to be four ( the four corners)

3. You are to look upon them and remember all the commandments of the L-RD and DO THEM, and keep you eyes upon them so that you dont' turn away from Him and go a whoring off to other "gods"

4. One of the strings must be blue( the blue reminds one of heaven where HaShem dwells)

5. They are to remind you of The L-rd,His word and His Torah ( all the commandments) and to do the commandments which He gave you and be holy unto G-d

6. They are to be tied to the edge of the garment in the hem on the four corners.

7. These "fringes" are to be tied to your outer garment.

Now much in the way of Tradition has brought about what we have today called the Prayer shawl. If one wants to really follow the commandment it can not be done with just wearing a prayer shawl in services. A prayer shawl is more like a "little tent" and the word conotes such. Many choose to wrap themselves inside it when praying.

I believe that one that wears talliot should also be following Torah as that is the main function of the tzitzi , to remind one of all the commandments and to do them. So I think for now you would be best off just wearing the kippot, and will do well.