Debating Points On Catholic Theology

[Stryder06]

The Israelites were blindly following the law . Jesus illustrated that through the pharisees . they continually slew the prophets and then Jesus . most certainly did not get the point of the law . which is the premise of the new covenant . Love is the point . and Jesus is Love . the old covenant is passed away and with the death of Jesus Christ . the new has come .

I think too often we lump the entire Israelite camp into a single group when we ought not too. To be fair you wouldn't want all of "Christianity" to be lumped together would you? Do you think Moses, Joshua, Daniel, David, Esther, etc followed the law blindly? I don't disagree that the majority didn't get the point, but that's how it's always been. The majority of Christianity doesn't get the point today. Love is the Point and Jesus is love. The thing is though that that is always how it was, or at least, that's always how it was suppose to be.

Himself . the passage you're looking for is in Jeremiah . where he will take away our heart of stone . and give us a heart of flesh .

the heart of stone was the two tablets . the ten commandments .

the heart of flesh is Jesus Christ .

Not sure about that. But either way, what do you mean by "Himself"? I wasn't thinking about Jeremiah, I simply want to know what you understood the new law to be which was written on our hearts? Jesus isn't a "law".

Obviously, haven't you been reading my posts?

I have, just checking
I just see people join the curse with the law while forgetting that a blessing was also attached to the law, but no one talks about that.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I think too often we lump the entire Israelite camp into a single group when we ought not too. To be fair you wouldn't want all of "Christianity" to be lumped together would you? Do you think Moses, Joshua, Daniel, David, Esther, etc followed the law blindly? I don't disagree that the majority didn't get the point, but that's how it's always been. The majority of Christianity doesn't get the point today. Love is the Point and Jesus is love. The thing is though that that is always how it was, or at least, that's always how it was suppose to be.

The scripture clearly shows that the leaders who were named and the multitudes who followed were quite often . polar opposites of one another in their walks with the Lord . there was never a holy generation or a royal priesthood among them . but if there was a leader . they would follow . and a fierce man . they would be scared into line . but we are that chosen generation . and that royal priesthood . that is what Jesus does in us .

Not sure about that. But either way, what do you mean by "Himself"? I wasn't thinking about Jeremiah, I simply want to know what you understood the new law to be which was written on our hearts? Jesus isn't a "law".

Well neither is sin . but Paul characterizes sin as a law that rules his members . so in that sense . Jesus is that new law . it is a law that brings freedom . as opposed to a law that brings bondage .

I have, just checking
I just see people join the curse with the law while forgetting that a blessing was also attached to the law, but no one talks about that.

That's because you can get blessed by God without the law . and no risk of a curse if you mess up . it's like when you go out with someone . there's all this good stuff . but when it's over . you list all the reasons why you don't want to get back together with them so you don't . being directed by the law is what causes one to fall from grace . and when fallen from grace . you are an open target for the enemy .

but with Jesus Christ . we are blessed beyond blessed beyond any curse . so i left the law behind and followed Jesus and His grace . So the law is like a bad girlfriend . but Jesus is the one we are getting married to . if that figure helps .

 

[Stryder06]

The scripture clearly shows that the leaders who were named and the multitudes who followed were quite often . polar opposites of one another in their walks with the Lord . there was never a holy generation or a royal priesthood among them . but if there was a leader . they would follow . and a fierce man . they would be scared into line . but we are that chosen generation . and that royal priesthood . that is what Jesus does in us .

I disagree. The scriptures don't show that at all. You may have made that assumption, but that is not what is being taught. And us being a royal generation, and a chosen priesthood, that was taken straight from the OT. The people were to be that too God if they remained obedient to Him.

There were generations who followed God the way they were suppose to, but more so then not they were succeeded by a generation who knew not God.

Well neither is sin . but Paul characterizes sin as a law that rules his members . so in that sense . Jesus is that new law . it is a law that brings freedom . as opposed to a law that brings bondage .

Well that still doesn't answer the question of what the law is that God wrote on our hearts. You can't say Jesus because that doesn't explain anything. You're saying Jesus is that new law, but what is that law?

That's because you can get blessed by God without the law . and no risk of a curse if you mess up . it's like when you go out with someone . there's all this good stuff . but when it's over . you list all the reasons why you don't want to get back together with them so you don't . being directed by the law is what causes one to fall from grace . and when fallen from grace . you are an open target for the enemy .

but with Jesus Christ . we are blessed beyond blessed beyond any curse . so i left the law behind and followed Jesus and His grace . So the law is like a bad girlfriend . but Jesus is the one we are getting married to . if that figure helps .

The law that David called Perfect is like a bad girlfriend?
How do you figure that?

This is what you need to consider. Israel isn't that much different from Christianity today when it comes to being obedient to God. I'm not trying to get into the laws that were tailored specifically for them. But no one has to worry about being cursed simply because they messed up. Israel messed up all the time, that's what the sacrifices were for. The curse came when they deliberately and continually strayed from the path of righteousness and went to serve other gods. Tell me, do you think a christian who would turn his back to God and go off and serve other gods, wouldn't be cursed?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I disagree. The scriptures don't show that at all. You may have made that assumption, but that is not what is being taught. And us being a royal generation, and a chosen priesthood, that was taken straight from the OT. The people were to be that too God if they remained obedient to Him.

There were generations who followed God the way they were suppose to, but more so then not they were succeeded by a generation who knew not God.

i know my bible so i know the OT reference also . doesn't change anything . it appears we percieve things differently . but i do notice how the messengers of God complain all the time about how ungodly the Israelites were . i'm not sure where you get your idea from but it must be from silence .

Well that still doesn't answer the question of what the law is that God wrote on our hearts. You can't say Jesus because that doesn't explain anything. You're saying Jesus is that new law, but what is that law?

The law was a shadow . but the reality is a three dimensional body . Jesus Christ . the law is not a list . the law is God very God indwelling us .

The law that David called Perfect is like a bad girlfriend?
How do you figure that?

Here is another figure that Paul used . the law is a schoolmaster . and once Christ came . there was no need for the law anymore because God indwells us and teaches us . so one day one has to leave school and pursue their career in the real world . and so it is with the knowledge of God . there is the knowledge of God and the intimate knowing of God inside of us . and it is in that intimacy . we learn things that simply cannot be written down .

This is what you need to consider. Israel isn't that much different from Christianity today when it comes to being obedient to God. I'm not trying to get into the laws that were tailored specifically for them. But no one has to worry about being cursed simply because they messed up. Israel messed up all the time, that's what the sacrifices were for. The curse came when they deliberately and continually strayed from the path of righteousness and went to serve other gods. Tell me, do you think a christian who would turn his back to God and go off and serve other gods, wouldn't be cursed?

I am aware of the prophetic shadowing the church has done of the nation of Israel since its beginning . even now we are as the divided kingdom awaiting captivity . but that is because the church has been under the law for so long . so has inherited its curses as well . but it does not need to be so .

 

[sunlover1]

I've demonstrated that Jesus only gave prayer (proseuche) to the LORD.

It is faith in the Father that we are supposed to mimic, not faith in an angel.

The only time Jesus asked something of (erotao) which does not mean gave prayer to (proseuche) was in Luke 5:3, which was to someone flesh and blood in his vicinity, not to anyone who is only spiritually present.

Jesus never proseuche his mother Mary, nor any of the angels or his disciples.

No praying to angels.
Bad idea!

Luke 11
1And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. 2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3Give us day by day our daily bread.
4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

The only instance you'll find of Jesus 'praying to' anyone but the Father is this verse:

Luke 5:3
And he entered into one of the ships, which was Simon's, and prayed him that he would thrust out a little from the land. And he sat down, and taught the people out of the ship.

Prayed, the greek word EROTAO
Strong's Greek Dictionary: 2065. erótaó

Which is a different meaning than the word PROSEUCHOMAI
Strong's Greek Dictionary: 4336. proseuchomai

So he was not PROSEUCHOMAI Simon, he was EROTAO Simon.

Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

When ye PROSEUCHOMAI... which is PRAYER, not simply EROTAO, which is asking of a person.

Jesus never PROSEUCHOMAI another person, only the heavenly Father.

Thank you. This is even easier to understand now.

 

[Stryder06]

i know my bible so i know the OT reference also . doesn't change anything . it appears we percieve things differently . but i do notice how the messengers of God complain all the time about how ungodly the Israelites were . i'm not sure where you get your idea from but it must be from silence .

I like the insinuation that I don't know my bible that you provided. Again, were individuals like David and Daniel following the law out of fear. I know that the prophets complained about the people being ungodly. Guess what lead to that ungodliness?

The law was a shadow . but the reality is a three dimensional body . Jesus Christ . the law is not a list . the law is God very God indwelling us .

That doesn't make sense. A law is a set of rules. That what a law is by definition (so to speak). God is God. He set's the rules. How would you explain this to someone who didn't know the bible. If you told them that the law is now Jesus living inside of us, how would you want them to understand that?

Here is another figure that Paul used . the law is a schoolmaster . and once Christ came . there was no need for the law anymore because God indwells us and teaches us . so one day one has to leave school and pursue their career in the real world . and so it is with the knowledge of God . there is the knowledge of God and the intimate knowing of God inside of us . and it is in that intimacy . we learn things that simply cannot be written down .

What happens in school? You learn the letter. What happens in the real world? You learn the spirit? You don't forget the letter though, you simply learn how to accurately apply it. The foundation of a building isn't removed once the construction is completed. Same thing. You build upon the law and understand that it's not about "thou shalt not" but rather it's about loving the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and strength.

I am aware of the prophetic shadowing the church has done of the nation of Israel since its beginning . even now we are as the divided kingdom awaiting captivity . but that is because the church has been under the law for so long . so has inherited its curses as well . but it does not need to be so .

There it is. So quick to talk about curses when it comes to the law while forgetting totally about the blessings. The reason you are cursed is because you (and not you individually) are continually doing the wrong thing. How could, or even better, why would God curse someone because they were being obedient to the law?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I like the insinuation that I don't know my bible that you provided. Again, were individuals like David and Daniel following the law out of fear. I know that the prophets complained about the people being ungodly. Guess what lead to that ungodliness?


That doesn't make sense. A law is a set of rules. That what a law is by definition (so to speak). God is God. He set's the rules. How would you explain this to someone who didn't know the bible. If you told them that the law is now Jesus living inside of us, how would you want them to understand that?


What happens in school? You learn the letter. What happens in the real world? You learn the spirit? You don't forget the letter though, you simply learn how to accurately apply it. The foundation of a building isn't removed once the construction is completed. Same thing. You build upon the law and understand that it's not about "thou shalt not" but rather it's about loving the Lord your God with all your heart, and mind, and strength.


There it is. So quick to talk about curses when it comes to the law while forgetting totally about the blessings. The reason you are cursed is because you (and not you individually) are continually doing the wrong thing. How could, or even better, why would God curse someone because they were being obedient to the law?

You need to read Galatians again brother .

Galatians 3

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

 

[Stryder06]

You need to read Galatians again brother .

Galatians 3

1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

I've read Galatians, several times in fact. I'm working on I Samuel now ( i think). I'm not a fan of trumping scripture with another scripture. I believe all scripture works together harmoniously. I also believe that the lessons taught from the NT stem directly from the "OT".

As far as the scripture you've provided, I am in 100% agreement with brother Paul. It's about belief. Paul isn't discrediting keeping the law, rather he is trying to keep the Galatians from suffering the same fate that the Pharisee's did. When the law becomes your absolute focus, and you begin to try to obtain your salvation through works, then you've gone the wrong way.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I've read Galatians, several times in fact. I'm working on I Samuel now ( i think). I'm not a fan of trumping scripture with another scripture. I believe all scripture works together harmoniously. I also believe that the lessons taught from the NT stem directly from the "OT".

As far as the scripture you've provided, I am in 100% agreement with brother Paul. It's about belief. Paul isn't discrediting keeping the law, rather he is trying to keep the Galatians from suffering the same fate that the Pharisee's did. When the law becomes your absolute focus, and you begin to try to obtain your salvation through works, then you've gone the wrong way.

I've tried that . trying to add the law to what Jesus did . but all it was doing was driving the spikes further into His wrists and ankles . i'm done with that .

 

[Stryder06]

I've tried that . trying to add the law to what Jesus did . but all it was doing was nailing the spikes further into his wrists and ankles . i'm done with that .

What do you mean?

I know one day I was on the brink of losing it because I was worried that I hadn't done enough works to please God and enter in to His kingdom. My wife brought me back though. It's not about what we do but what Christ has done. This isn't to say that obedience isn't required, but that as we try to be like Christ, when we fall, His grace is sufficient for us.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

What do you mean?

I know one day I was on the brink of losing it because I was worried that I hadn't done enough works to please God and enter in to His kingdom. My wife brought me back though. It's not about what we do but what Christ has done. This isn't to say that obedience isn't required, but that as we try to be like Christ, when we fall, His grace is sufficient for us.

the Law is a poor substitute for the Spirit of God in one's life .

the fences they make are easily assailed by the enemy

but grace is an everlasting boundary that they cannot cross

i guess my question is: if you know the goodness of God's grace why would you want to focus on the law?

 

[Stryder06]

the Law is a poor substitute for the Spirit of God in one's life .

You won't find a disagreement here

the fences they make are easily assailed by the enemy

but grace is an everlasting boundary that they cannot cross

i guess my question is: if you know the goodness of God's grace why would you want to focus on the law?

It's because the law is not so easily cast aside. Were it possible to do away with the law then our Savior would not have needed to die. He became a curse for me. He became guilty of sin, having never sinned for me. The depths of that one cannot fathom. God's Son being condemned as guilty for a crime that He never committed, for my sake...it truly boggles the mind.

Focusing on the law is what Christ did, but He did it the right way. There is nothing wrong with keeping the law. The problem comes in when keeping of the law becomes a means to an end. The true purpose of keeping the law is to teach you how to Love God and to love your fellow man.

 

[MamaZ]

The law bringeth death. This is why Christ had to come and live and fulfill the law. It has been fulfilled and our righteousness now lies within Him fulfilling the law and us being in Him. For one love with the Love of God that has been shed abroad in our hearts by the HS. God Himself has filled our hearts with Love.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The law killed me . and as the scriptures say of it . aggrigavted my sin until it gave birth to death . i cut out the law . because without the law . sin has no power . and without law death has no sting . and without the power of death . the snake has no power . so it is no wonder that i hold steadfast to the grace . and leave the law behind . as a shadow of the sun of righteousness in front of me .

 

[Stryder06]

The law killed me . and as the scriptures say of it . aggrigavted my sin until it gave birth to death . i cut out the law . because without the law . sin has no power . and without law death has no sting . and without the power of death . the snake has no power . so it is no wonder that i hold steadfast to the grace . and leave the law behind . as a shadow of the sun of righteousness in front of me .

While I'm wholly with you on clinging to grace, I'm not making the connection with the rest of what you said.

By "cutting out the law" you are essentially placing yourself in the same place as you were before you knew of the law. We are born into condemnation. That doesn't change until the day we accept Christ as our Savior. At that point we move from death to life. Sin loses it's power over us, not because there is no longer a law that we are held accountable to, but because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. He has become the curse for us, and has died the death we were to die for us, thus we need only look to Him and ask forgiveness, and we are forgiven.

If there is no law then there is no sin of which you'd need to ask forgiveness for.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

While I'm wholly with you on clinging to grace, I'm not making the connection with the rest of what you said.

By "cutting out the law" you are essentially placing yourself in the same place as you were before you knew of the law. We are born into condemnation. That doesn't change until the day we accept Christ as our Savior. At that point we move from death to life. Sin loses it's power over us, not because there is no longer a law that we are held accountable to, but because there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. He has become the curse for us, and has died the death we were to die for us, thus we need only look to Him and ask forgiveness, and we are forgiven.

If there is no law then there is no sin of which you'd need to ask forgiveness for.

Not really, participating in the divine nature means God gives you His heart and His mind . so there is no need of a law . like with the socialization process with infants to grownups . so it is with people who are born again . God teaches us everything .

In the old covenant the law was what the prophets prophesied according to .

In the new covenant the testimony of Jesus Christ is identified as the spirit of prophecy .

this change in premise is what makes all the difference .

the flesh likes the law because it can control it

but the flesh hates the Spirit because it cannot understand or control it .

i am seeking a Spirit only way of living . and since i have seen how the body uses the law to operate . i have cut it out .

i have remembrances brought back by the Spirit of God to encourage, exhort, or edify, but other than that . the word has become flesh in me . so the Spiritual development and relationship is all that matters .

 

[Stryder06]

Not really, participating in the divine nature means God gives you His heart and His mind . so there is no need of a law . like with the socialization process with infants to grownups . so it is with people who are born again . God teaches us everything .

In the old covenant the law was what the prophets prophesied according to .

In the new covenant the testimony of Jesus Christ is identified as the spirit of prophecy .

this change in premise is what makes all the difference .

the flesh likes the law because it can control it

but the flesh hates the Spirit because it cannot understand or control it .

i am seeking a Spirit only way of living . and since i have seen how the body uses the law to operate . i have cut it out .

i have remembrances brought back by the Spirit of God to encourage, exhort, or edify, but other than that . the word has become flesh in me . so the Spiritual development and relationship is all that matters .

I don't understand the part about how the flesh can control the law. The law came from the throne of God and as such is supernatural. But I doubt we'll come to an agreement on this at this time. The law, when taken without the Spirit has no substance, rather it is a tool for death.

The Spirit speaks and testifies of the Power of God to enable me to live according to his law. Christ was obedient to His Father, keeping the law, unto death. That is the mind we are to have, one that is willing to be obedient to the Father, even unto death.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No praying to angels.
Bad idea!



Thank you. This is even easier to understand now.

Why not? Why is it a bad idea?

Luke 4:10
For it is written, that He hath given his angels charge over thee, that they keep thee.


Pray does not mean worship - it means to talk to...to ask of.

If the angels have charge over you - wouldn't it be fine to plead with them to ask the Lord for help - since they are our helpers through the Lord?

Before the 13th century, the word was "preien" or to ask earnestly/beg. The old French word "preier" came from the Latin "precari." Prayer also came from the Latin word "prex." From "precari" came precarious which originally meant to be achieved through the asking. Precarious entered the English language in the 17th century. Later we used it as begging a favour in the asking.

The usage of "pray" was common in medieval England. It meant please. Earlier writings used "prithee", short for "I pray thee".

Example of meaning - "pray tell"



​

 

[sunlover1]

Why not? Why is it a bad idea?

Because you have no idea who (or what) you may be speaking to.

Pray does not mean worship - it means to talk to...to ask of.

Certainly.

​

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I don't understand the part about how the flesh can control the law. The law came from the throne of God and as such is supernatural. But I doubt we'll come to an agreement on this at this time. The law, when taken without the Spirit has no substance, rather it is a tool for death.

The Spirit speaks and testifies of the Power of God to enable me to live according to his law. Christ was obedient to His Father, keeping the law, unto death. That is the mind we are to have, one that is willing to be obedient to the Father, even unto death.

I agree . i don't think we'll see things the same way . but it has been fun conversing on the topic .