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Debate on the theory of evolution and theistic evolution

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Anthony Puccetti

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Oh dearie me. You spout words like logical in every post it seems yet fail to adhere to the concept. What we as Christian do is to make special appeal. You are doing this but calling it by another, very misleading, name.

What do you mean by special appeal? Do you mean belief without reason?
We shouldn't be fideists who don't recognize the reasons for what we believe. There are good reasons to believe Christian doctrines. Anything that is worth believing must be rational. And by rational I do not mean scientific.

The logical proof of God does not take away from faith,if that is what you think. It supports faith,giving it a solid foundation.
 
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Anthony Puccetti

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You apparently didn't look too closely as to how I defined "facts". Did you notice this sentence? "If we were to look at the lithographic fossils of Archeopteryx, we would see impressions of feathers. That is a fact." The feathers on the lithographic fossils on Archie are "repeatable observations". I never said that you have to repeat history.

In order to demonstrate the narrative of evolution theory,you would have to repeat what the theory claims to have happened.

The impressions of feathers do not say anything about whether the narrative of evolution theory is true or what other species the creature was related to.

We can and do study one-time events as long as those events leave us evidence we can all look at in the present. The narrative can be demonstrated to have happened because it left evidence in the present.
The genetic and structural similarities between species do not say anything about whether there was common descent between them and macro-evolution. If you don't know beforehand that the narrative happened,you cannot know that the things you examine are really evidence for it,because there is a more logical alternative. There could have been many species that originated separately,from which contemporary species have descended.

Think of the various CSI series on TV. They make a narrative of what happened in the past from facts. The facts (observations in the present) are used to demonstrate that the narrative happened. Evolution uses the same type of science as forensics.
The difference is that forensic detectives use evidence to connect crimes to people who are known to exist and whose whereabouts at certain times are traceable,whereas evolutionists use evidence to trace out lineages which cannot be known to have existed,because the reproductive links and compatibility between dead species cannot be observed.

I was talking about observations, not "explanations". If we are going to discuss, then you need to pay attention to what I am saying. Science restricts itself to intersubjective observations.
And I was contradicting your statement when I said that science restricts itself only to naturalistic explanations.
Intersubjectivity is a psychoanalytical concept.

The statement you made doens't make any sense. What does happen is that science is restricted to the "natural" component of an explanation. Christian belief is that God sustains all that is "natural". Nothing "natural" happens except by the will of God. Science can't test this supernatural component.
The fact that science cannot test the supernatural is besides the point.
Science is not limited to experimentation and conclusions drawn from it. There is also much speculation which cannot be verified. Explanations for the workings of nature ought to be logical,fitting effects to proper causes. And if an explanation that uses natural causes alone does not add up,we ought to have recourse to what else we know,or can know,about nature apart from scientific research,namely,God's power in it. If it is reasonable to believe that God is involved with the natural world,our knowledge of God and his relations with nature ought to be brought to bear upon our explanations.

You do realize you just contradicted yourself above, don't you?

Again, that is not what I said. I am talking about intersubjective observations. Everything you have stated involves objective, intersubjective observations.
Those theories involve much unverifiable and illogical speculation.

Actually, that is not the among the critieria of a successful theory. This is the heart of the scientific method:
"...what we learned in school about the scientific method can be reduced to two basic principles.
"1. All our theory, ideas, preconceptions, instincts, and prejudices about how things logically ought to be, how they in all fairness ought to be, or how we would prefer them to be, must be tested against external reality --what they *really* are. How do we determine what they really are? Through direct experience of the universe itself." Kitty Ferguson, The Fire in the Equations, pg. 38.
Direct experience and testing of physical things does not by itself determine what they are or what causation is involved. We know what really is through reason and logical thinking,as well as through sense experience and experimentation. The logic I am talking about takes into account sense experience and experimentation,but also corrects and criticizes them.

The idea that we can best know reality by sticking with empiricism and experimentation is itself a misguided preconception and prejudice. We are not closer to the truth of reality by suppressing reason and reducing knowledge to sense experience.
 
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Papias

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Anthony wrote:

Originally Posted by Papias
Anthony, those aren't pieces of evidence or even areas of evidence. They are simply bare assertions of your opinion, from someone that we have no reason to think even understands those areas, and hasn't even said where their degrees in Genetics, anatomy, and so on are from.

Again, what evidence are you basing your opinions on?

I base my assertions on my analysis of evidence and arguments that are used to support the theory of evolution. Evidence does not always speak for itself in favor of the claims of those who first present it,whether in a court of law or in science. It needs to be interpreted logically. The evidence for evolution does not logically support the theory. It is interpreted naturalistically and mechanistically,not logically.


So, I point out that you are simply repeating your own unsupported opinion about fields that you know little about, and I ask for the evidence you are supposedly using.....

... and you reply by simply repeating your own unsupported opinion about fields that you now little about, and refusing to give the evidence you are supposedly using.

Wow, thanks for proving my point!


Papias
 
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Anthony Puccetti

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lucaspa:

My favorite example is the dual nature of light and matter: being both particle and wave at the same time. In logic, there is the Law of the Excluded Middle. According to that logical law, something cannot be 2 different things at the same time; it must be one or the other. Our experience of the universe says that, in this case, the logic is wrong.

The law of the excluded middle is false.
It isn't always true to say that something cannot be 2 different things at the same time. A human being is body and soul. All living creatures on earth are body and spirit. H2O can be water and ice at the same time. God is three persons,one in being.

Also, whether you are anyone "believes" a scientific theory is irrelevant. What matters is whether the theory matches data.

A theory can match the data but still be illogical. Data does not always speak for itself,it is interpreted and spoken for in support of a theory. Evolution theory falsely assumes that genetic and structural commonalities shows relatedness between species by common ancestry. It does not focus upon the actual means by which species descend,which is reprodution of individual creatures,but upon processses that do not themselves produce any creatures. The nested hierarchy model is an arrangement based upon so-called patterns of similar physical characteristics rather than reproductive connections alone. It is falsely assumed that the "patterns" of the could only be the result of common ancestry,as if there could only have been one genetic source for all species that have existed.
 
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