Look, Josephus mentions that Manetho, the Hellenistic native Egyptian historian, wrote of a figure Osarseph, who was a Heliopolitan priest. This Osarseph led a group of slaves and peasants out of Egypt after making trouble for a while, and settled in Canaan. Josephus connected this to the Exodus account. Manetho's own work is lost, except for a few quotations and allusions.
We have never found any corroboration for this from Egyptian written history, nor does an Exodus narrative fit anywhere in the traditional timelines of Egyptian history.
The period of Aten worship ends with Tutankhaten ending it, and becoming Tutankhamen. He made peace with the traditional gods, and his successor Ay, started the process of trying to erase it completely from Egyptian history. There is no record of further Monotheism of this type in Egypt, nor of their moving to Canaan. With the biblical account and Manetho's, it does give one pause, but a connection here is highly suppositional, and has almost no support beyond conjecture.
On alternative chronologies of Egyptian history, an Exodus is quite possible. After all, the Egyptian timeline is largely anchored on Shisaq being Seshonk I and a rising of Sirius, so is not too definite. Even a limited scaled-down Exodus on the traditional timeline is possible, but no definitive evidence thereof has come to light, only conjectures on equivocal and debatable points can be made to this effect.
It is an interesting hypothesis, but the whole idea is that as specialisation takes place, that monotheism is discarded in the process, so that few successor mythologies have anything but susurrations of it.
The northwest Semitic languages develop from proto-Semitic, just like Akkadian. They are not descendants of Akkadian, but a language from which both ultimately came. It is the same as in the Indo-European languages, where proto-Greek, Hittite, proto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, etc., all descend from Proto-Indo-European. The Romance languages like French and Italian, all descended from Latin as the common origin of all; and in like manner, all the Semitic languages descend from proto-Semitic, be they South, West or East Semitic subgroups. Akkadian belongs to the East Semitic group, so the West Semitic languages like Amorite, Hebrew or Phoenician, are its cousins, not its descendants. Sumerian is a language isolate, with no descendant language, although it influenced these other languages. Ask your linguist friend, he will explain this better than I can, I am sure, but the West Semitic languages are not descendants of Akkadian.
No, I don't know what you mean. Egypt spoke a Afro-Asiatic language, related to the Semitic languages, but again not of the same stock, being even a further step back. The Semitic languages and Egyptian had a common ancestor somewhere. It may be related to a fusion of early proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers, is this what you are referring to?
I don't see how you agree and disagree, for what you wrote here seems to agree with my understanding as well.
Please do. What Hittite ritual acts as parallel to the Scapegoat? I am very interested in this as the Hittites are Indo-European and any such parallel can then be extended to their kin mythologies of Greek, Roman, Indian, Iranian, Norse, Slavic, Celtic, etc. Such exhaustive parallels can be fascinating such as the associations of various gods with Dyaus Piter or themes like the Triple Death in comparative Indo-European Mythology.
I looked up any geological evidence for the Persian gulf being fertile land, and to my surprise it is theorised it had been at the end of the last glacial Maximum. That however is thousands and thousands of years before the start of Sumer, about 14500 years ago.
On Salvation, most agree that it is through Jesus Christ. The specific mechanism isn't that important to my mind, but I have often thought that the various forms of Atonement aren't mutually exclusive.
Most such foetuses you mentioned, abort spontaneously anyway. I am not going to debate Abortion with you, but I am opposed to abortion of healthy foetuses, myself. Abortion on and for strict medical criteria, such as chromosomal defects or the health of the mother, I have no problem with. You had to bring something on Ethics and Morality in here, to justify this forum choice?
Well, I see Christianity as starting in Jerusalem of course, not Rome. That is 2000 years of development you are asking about, so could you be more specific?
Interesting, on Osarseph, as we see the Atum creation epic in Heliopolitan as being a creation epic attributed to the deity close to Ra, which is Atum. But if Osarseph did lead this group out of Egypt, I am aware of the Heliopolitan being monotheist, as the Aten solar proto-monotheism embodied the Heliopolitan doctrine.
Yes Josepheus connects this to the Exodus account, how even more interesting. I might actually draw the same conclusion that we don't find an exodus narrative in Egyptian history.
But also there is an interesting comparitive, the Exodus from Egypt is compared to the rescue from Sennacherib’s siege of Jerusalem. Redemption from slavery and the avoidance of renewed enslavement is implied by comparing the nights of rescue in two different Biblical passages.
The relationship between Sennacherib’s defeat and the Exodus from Egypt is further analyzed in a reference to Hezekiah in a series of people who recited the Hallel, e.g., Moses and Israel at the Reed Sea, as well as Deborah and Barak after the battle against Sisera.
“Rabbi Eleazar ben ‘Azariah said: Hezekiah and his companions uttered it [the Hallel] when Sennacherib attacked them. They exclaimed: Not unto us, and the Holy Spirit responded” (b. Pesaḥ. 118a). Another evaluation of the prayer of Hezekiah is found below:
"they took Sennacherib’s power away not with weapons nor with a shield, but with prayer and supplication to the Lord, as it says: “And Hezekiah, the king, and Isaiah, the prophet, son of Amoz, prayed because of this, and cried to heaven” (2 Chronicles 32:20). “And the thirsty panted after their wealth” (Job 5:5).
Who was it that “panted after” Sennacherib’s wealth? Hezekiah and Isaiah and all that were with them. (Pesiq. Rab. 18:9; Ulmer ed.) In the above homiletic text, which is part of a long homily concerning the bringing of the Omer to the Temple, the focus is upon an appeal to prayer and repentance in order to overcome perilous situations; the example presented by the homilist is the threat of an attack by Sennacherib. The message in this homiletic context is that prayer alone can vanquish enemies without the use of weapons; the proof text is Job 5:5. The Midrashic interpretation leads to the conclusion that religious piety is potent.
· At the gates of Jerusalem by author: Thomas Schneider
I am not stating it means much, but it is certainly an interesting comparison of an earlier exodus in Bible myths.
The issue with the theory of Ur-Monotheismus is that Polytheism is a pre Monotheistic practice, but this isn't to say that Polytheism isn't influence by Polytheism. Such as the Akkadian sky God An being influenced by the Sumerian sky God Anu, in a cultural context. I get the theory, but I still don't see how those early cultures were ever Monotheistic. Even in the original postulation that an lower God can enter the picture, is not indicative of Monotheism. Here is a thought in Sumer each city and village had their own God forms. Eventually, they start to link up. In Ancient India, this led to an assumption that all these gods might be different versions of the same thing or have the same source (see: Vedanta). In the ANE, empires amalgamated them into one official pantheon and, eventually, one official god.
I have to research further on linguistics myself. But as I know Akkad is Semitic while Sumer is Sumerian. However we can look further into this subject, I will get back to you on this. Also, concerning writing, there are finds at Abydos that push back the writing in Egypt, which could make it contemporaneous with Mesopotamian invention and this would undermine that writing arose in Egypt from Sumerian influence. Also, in the region of Syria there is little evidence for the linear alphabet before the 1st Mill. BC; but at the site of Ras Shamra, in Ugarit there is a full functioning alphabetic system utilizing cuneiform signs rather than linear characters. This system appears to not be based on Sumero-Akkadian syllabic Cuneiform and was not only used for writing texts of all genres in the local West Semitic language of Ugarit, but occasionally for other language such as Hurrian, but as I know the Hittites are essentially influenced by the Hurrians, and Hittite language is Indo-Euro based, you can see this in the peace treaty in 1258 BC with the Egyptians. But I do agree that Sumer is a Pre Semitic language and I do agree that it has influence in Akkad. Hence your statement of “Sumerian is a language isolate, with no descendant language, although it influenced these other languages.” Also, I recommend a comparison of the Akkadian and Sumerian lexicons.
http://www.sumerian.org/sumerian.pdf
https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/mad3.pdf
We see temples built to Gods in Ziggaurats and in Egypt we see Pyramids built for Pharoahs, but there is little influence from Ziggaurats to Pyramids and I believe the influence is from Sub Saharan cultures. So to your fusion of early proto-Afro-Asiatic and Nil-Saharan references I would agree there.
I will a bit later answer on Hittite and Mesopotamian rituals as compared with the Day of Atonement in the Old Testament. Have to get to a shoot (for a movie) in an hour.
I have a Christian friend (and we do occasionally debate), but he said that your discovery of the last glacial maximum is speculation. However, I hate to use the word speculation as it denotes a negative connotation and does not lead to any further discovery. This is one issue I have with the monotheistic community, anytime they disagree, they will jump to terms such as "speculation", "worldview" and other annoying clichés. It actually is a good psychological tactic, it makes the person feel as if they should research no further because their answer is authentic. In retrospect I agree that there was a glacial Maximum that far back, by the way check the Sumerian kings list for a length of how long rulers were in power, it is interesting. But, it is possible that the Fertile Crescent may have been different if land was at one time unified and not separated, the geo maps would have varied if this is so. Good research though on the last glacial Maximum. But, still Qatar would obviously be in different locations, especially if referencing Sumer and even Akkadian cuneiform in translation to modern archaeological sites.
Yeah I would classify my nomenclature as Christian a few years back, but no more. I think agree with you, that salvation or the doctrine of is hotly debated in Christian circles. Interesting thought on Atonement for sin, are you stating then that asking for forgiveness of sins isn’t required, I think I’d agree with that , as we don’t see the thief on the cross asking for forgiveness in Biblical myths.
Right, I was posting in an Ethics & Morality forum and I should have posted in the history forum. Though since I'm new I'm learning to navigate this thing I guess, hahahahaha.
I think of Rome as from what I know that is when there is an emergence of a devil figure about 1200 bc, horns of Ba’al, hooves of Pan (from his cave in Israel), tail of a dragon (most likely Tiamat), and with a trident similar to that of Poseidon, and don’t forget a very nasty attitude to go along with it all. Similarly it is later in Isaiah that Lucifer is penned in 382 AD and is a mistranslation.
Yeah Roman mythology is very interesting, I noticed you stated in your last comment something about it. It’s kind of an interesting thing because the Romans treat their traditional narratives as historical.