Debate on Mariology Study.

[IamAdopted]

I want to take some of the scripture that were Presented in the other thread and discuss and debate it on here..

I. The Uniqueness of Mary as the Mother of God

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull.

Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - a virgin (the Greek word used is "parthenos") will bear a Son named Emmanuel, which means "God is with us." John 1:14 - God in flesh dwelt among us. Mary is the Virgin Mother of God.

Matt. 2:11 - Luke emphasizes Jesus is with Mary His Mother, and the magi fall down before both of them, worshiping Jesus.

Luke 1:35 - the child will be called holy, the Son of God. Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, or the Mother of God (the "Theotokos").

Luke 1:28 - "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you." These are the words spoken by God and delivered to us by the angel Gabriel (who is a messenger of God). Thus, when Catholics recite this verse while praying the Rosary, they are uttering the words of God.

Luke 1:28 - also, the phrase "full of grace" is translated from the Greek word "kecharitomene." This is a unique title given to Mary, and suggests a perfection of grace from a past event. Mary is not just "highly favored." She has been perfected in grace by God. "Full of grace" is only used to describe one other person - Jesus Christ in John 1:14.

Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

Luke 1:42 - "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus." The phrase "blessed are you among women" really means "you are most blessed of all women." A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). We too can go through Mary to praise Jesus. Finally, Catholics repeat these divinely inspired words of Elizabeth in the Rosary.

Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).

Luke 1:44 - Mary's voice causes John the Baptist to leap for joy in Elizabeth's womb. Luke is teaching us that Mary is our powerful intercessor.

Luke 1:46 - Mary claims that her soul magnifies the Lord. This is a bold statement from a young Jewish girl from Nazareth. Her statement is a strong testimony to her uniqueness. Mary, as our Mother and intercessor, also magnifies our prayers.

Luke 1:48 - Mary prophesies that all generations shall call her blessed, as Catholics do in the "Hail Mary" prayer. What Protestant churches have existed in all generations (none), and how many of them call Mary blessed with special prayers and devotions?

Gal. 4:4 - God sent His Son, born of a woman, to redeem us. Mary is the woman with the redeemer. By calling Mary co-redemptrix, we are simply calling Mary "the woman with the redeemer." This is because "co" is from the Latin word "cum" which means "with." Therefore, "co-redemptrix" means "woman with the redeemer." Mary had a unique but subordinate role to Jesus in salvation.

Eph. 1:1; Phil. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - the word "saints" (in Hebrew "qaddiysh") means "holy" ones. So Mary is called Holy, the greatest Saint of all.

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.

 

[Davidnic]

Well we can first see if there is anything we agree on. For instance:


Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

You and I may not agree on the part about veneration, but we would (I think) agree that such submission to God is an example to us all.

Or:

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

We all should unite our sufferings with the suffering of Christ. Mary, as His mother had unique pain in suffering with her Son. A pain that was fortold. Now, we may disagree exactly on some of the theological implications of that. But could we agree that again here, Mary is an example for us to follow.

What I am trying to do is focus first where we can agree so we can narrow down facets of this list a bit.

 

[IamAdopted]

Gen. 3:15 - we see from the very beginning that God gives Mary a unique role in salvation history. God says "I will put enmity between you and the woman, between your seed and her seed." This refers to Jesus (the "emnity") and Mary (the "woman"). The phrase "her seed" (spermatos) is not seen elsewhere in Scripture.

Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - the Scriptures begin and end with the woman battling satan. This points to the power of the woman with the seed and teaches us that Jesus and Mary are the new Adam and the new Eve.

Now how do you see Mary in Genesis? We see woman. Not Mary. We see that God put enmity between the enemy and the woman and his seed and her seed. Jesus was born of woman. This would be offspring. We also see that it is Jesus that crushed his head. Not the woman. In Revelation we see Isreal as the woman presented here. Not Mary. This does in no way teach that Mary is any way the new eve. For sin comes through man and not woman. Therefore this is why Christ became the second Adam. For now we can be born again. Not of flesh but of the Spirit. Women are not involved in being Born again. Only God is.

 

[E.C.]

Jesus: 100% Man, 100% God
Mary: brought Jesus into the world in other words, gave birth to Him.

Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[Iollain]

Well we can first see if there is anything we agree on. For instance:


Luke 1:38 - Mary's fiat is "let it be done to me according to thy word." Mary is the perfect model of faith in God, and is worthy of our veneration.

You and I may not agree on the part about veneration, but we would (I think) agree that such submission to God is an example to us all.

Or:

Luke 2:35 - Simeon prophesies that a sword would also pierce Mary's soul. Mary thus plays a very important role in our redemption. While Jesus' suffering was all that we needed for redemption, God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering, just as he allows us to participate through our own sufferings.

We all should unite our sufferings with the suffering of Christ. Mary, as His mother had unique pain in suffering with her Son. A pain that was fortold. Now, we may disagree exactly on some of the theological implications of that. But could we agree that again here, Mary is an example for us to follow.

What I am trying to do is focus first where we can agree so we can narrow down facets of this list a bit.

Yes that is great faith in God, especially because the Messiah was thought to be born among the rich and maybe famous.

However cannot agree with you on the 'God desired Mary to participate on a subordinate level in her Son's suffering'.........was probably a warning to Mary that all would not be lovely all the time.

Not even this ECF agrees with ya.

St. Hilary [315-367 A.D.] was asked by a brother bishop the meaning of the text, he replied: "The sword which pierced her soul was disbelief, which smote her at the time of Christ's passion."


Now look at this, this just blasphemous:


"To such extent did (Mary) suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man's salvation, and immolated Him—insofar as she could—in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ."


Apostolic Letter Inter Sodalicia, 1918, A.A.S. 10, 1918, p. 182.

 

[repentant]

Now how do you see Mary in Genesis? We see woman. Not Mary. We see that God put enmity between the enemy and the woman and his seed and her seed. Jesus was born of woman. This would be offspring. We also see that it is Jesus that crushed his head. Not the woman. In Revelation we see Isreal as the woman presented here. Not Mary. This does in no way teach that Mary is any way the new eve. For sin comes through man and not woman. Therefore this is why Christ became the second Adam. For now we can be born again. Not of flesh but of the Spirit. Women are not involved in being Born again. Only God is.

Well you don't see the name Mary in Genesis, because it is Prophecy..just like you don't see the name Ihsous in Prophecy of the Messiah..

It is also your opinion that the woman in Revs. refer's to Israel..in a long standing Tradition, it is Mary..and even to some extent the Church. ..

 

[Iollain]

Luke 2:19,51 - Mary kept in mind all these things as she pondered them in her heart. Catholics remember this by devoting themselves to Mary's Immaculate Heart and all the treasures and wisdom and knowledge contained therein.

I wonder what Peter would have thought of this stuff, to see what this apparition, along with many frenchmen, has turned the Sabbath day into:

'''''''''Second Marian Phenomenon

Early in the morning of May 1st, 1895, word went around Rovigo that "the Sorrowful Mother of St. Michael's is moving her eyes!" Before long the whole church was jammed with people and thousands outside fought to get in. The rumor was true. Everyone saw the eyes of the image move, look up to heaven, then look down as if in great sorrow. Later it was discovered that three school girls, who used to go into the church each morning on their way to school to greet Our Blessed Mother, had witnessed the phenomenon for three days running. They had told their parents but no one had believed their story.

Mary English Inspired

Among the people who ran to the church at Rovigo that May 1st morning was 30-year-old Miss Mary English (Inglese), a most pure soul, all on fire for the Madonna, and a Servite Tertiary for the past four years. The look of Our Beloved Mother, so desolate and appealing, was an interior revelation to Miss English. She knew immediately that Our Lady was asking for reparation and love. At the same time the whole practice of Marian Reparation seemed revealed to her in a flash.

Begins Communions of Reparation

For the next four years Mary English prayed constantly, asking to know more distinctly exactly what Our Lady wanted her to do. Then in February 1889, moved by an irresistible interior revelation, she instituted among her friends the pious practice of "Communion in Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary." In the same month she published a pamphlet – How Good is Mary! – which explained her plan and included prayers of Reparation. The Bishop of the Diocese not only approved of the practice, but also recommended it most warmly to his people. In a short time 700 units of the Sodality of Our Lady, in Italy and elsewhere, had adopted it officially. he plan at that time was to have members take turns in uninterrupted daily Communions and Hours of Adoration in Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

St. Pius X Approves

Miss English was in very bad health. In 1904 she composed a series of prayers for each Mystery of the Rosary, as well as prayers for the opening and closing of the Holy Hour of Reparation to Mary. She brought these writings to Rome and St. Pius X indulged them immediately. In 1905 the same Pontiff, in a private audience, warmly encouraged Mary English in her apostolate of Communion in Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary.

Our Lady Appears Again

It was about this time that Our Blessed Lady appeared to Mary English at Rovigo. No words were spoken during the Apparition, but Our Lady showed the girl a nun's habit. By interior inspiration Mary English knew immediately that this was the religious habit which Our Lady wanted her to wear. So she went to the Bishop and asked his permission to start a new Religious Congregation to take over this work of Marian Reparation. The Bishop, Pius Thomas Boggiani who later became a Cardinal, answered: "No. There is no need to found a new Congregation. Recently I brought the Servite Sisters to this diocese and their devotion to the Sorrows of Our Lady makes them the ideal group for your Marian Reparation. I desire that you confide it to them." The Servite Sisters to whom he referred were those founded at Vidor in 1890 by Sister Mary Elisa Andreoli, who died a most saintly death in 1935.

Joins Servite Nuns

Naturally Mary English was greatly disturbed by this answer of the bishop, since she had interpreted the Apparition of Our Lady as meaning that an entirely new congregation was to be founded. However, in obedience to the bishop, she went to visit the Servite Sisters. Imagine her surprise upon seeing the nuns dressed in the very same habit which Our Lady had shown to her in the Apparition! Immediately she asked to be admitted to the community and on December 29th, 1911, was clothed with the Servite Habit and given the name of Sister Mary Dolores.

Institutes First Saturday Reparation

Mother Foundress Andreoli and Sister Dolores then set about revising the Rule of their Congregation so as to make Marian Reparation its chief work. Framework of the new Rule was that each day (from 6:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M.) be a series of uninterrupted hours of Reparation before Our Lady's altar, and that the First Saturday of each month be the most solemn day of Reparation. On each First Saturday the community would engage in special penances and prayers and would renew its Consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Also, its apostolate among the school children and then adult laity would concentrate on the Communion of Reparation on the First Saturday of each month. The name of the Congregation was then changed from "Servants of Mary" to "Servants of Mary of Reparation" (Congregatio Servarum Mariae a Reparatione).

"The Marian League of Reparation"

The miraculous picture of Our Lady was then moved from St. Michael's Church to the novitiate of the Sisters and the new program of continuous reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary began. The Congregation has since opened many new convents, and in each of them you found – at any hour of the day –: at least two nuns kneeling in reparation before the image of Our Lady. In 1912 the Sisters began publishing a new monthly magazine entitled The Marian League of Reparation. Chiefly through this magazine they were able to spread throughout Continental Europe their apostolate of the First-Saturday Communion of Reparation to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. '''''''''



.........i cannot believe people fall for this

 

[IamAdopted]

Well you don't see the name Mary in Genesis, because it is Prophecy..just like you don't see the name Ihsous in Prophecy of the Messiah..

It is also your opinion that the woman in Revs. refer's to Israel..in a long standing Tradition, it is Mary..and even to some extent the Church. ..

I can read the whole of the bible repentant and it is not Mary that Revelation is speaking of. Mary was the mother of Jesus. This whom Revelation speaks us is yet to come. If you read Galatians we see who the mother of the bride of Christ is. It is not Mary. Paul explains this quite well.

 

[IamAdopted]

John 2:4, 19:26 - Jesus calls Mary "woman" as she is called in Gen. 3:15. Just as Eve was the mother of the old creation, Mary is the mother of the new creation. This woman's seed will crush the serpent's skull

Jesus called more than one, woman.

17"I have no husband," she replied.
Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."
19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem." 21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

So does this mean that the Samaritian woman was also a new Eve?

 

[repentant]

I can read the whole of the bible repentant and it is not Mary that Revelation is speaking of. Mary was the mother of Jesus. This whom Revelation speaks us is yet to come. If you read Galatians we see who the mother of the bride of Christ is. It is not Mary. Paul explains this quite well.

Like I said, that is your opinion...

 

[Mary of Bethany]

The problem is there are 3 different "views" of Mary - the Protestant/Evangelical, the Roman Catholic, and the Orthodox. It'll get real confusing real fast.

Mary

 

[IamAdopted]

Like I said, that is your opinion...

Actually if you study the whole of Scripture it becomes quite clear.

 

[repentant]

In your opinion..I would think the Father's who Canonized Scripture studied it far more than you have..

 

[E.C.]

Actually if you study the whole of Scripture it becomes quite clear.

Actually, it is more just your opinion because of two words: private interpretation.

Those two words have been known to lead to heresy (Arius, Nestorius, etc etc).

 

[IamAdopted]

In your opinion..I would think the Father's who Canonized Scripture studied it far more than you have..

Well lets just say this. The cannonization of Gods already written word was Gods will and not mans. God even used balams Donkey when He wanted His word to go forth. So God will use the means to Get His word out to His people. But once again it is God that is to be praised and not the men. For had it not been in the counsel of this it would have came another way. For God is Faithful. This private interpretation you all use for defense does not even read the way you use it. You need to look it up and read the whole of what was being said with that scripture. This scripture is saying that Scripture did not come from Man but from God..

 

[repentant]

Well lets just say this. The cannonization of Gods already written word was Gods will and not mans. God even used balams Donkey when He wanted His word to go forth. So God will use the means to Get His word out to His people. But once again it is God that is to be praised and not the men. For had it not been in the counsel of this it would have came another way. For God is Faithful. This private interpretation you all use for defense does not even read the way you use it. You need to look it up and read the whole of what was being said with that scripture. This scripture is saying that Scripture did not come from Man but from God..

Yea we heard it before..if it wasn't Mary, it would have been someone else, if it wasn't a Council, it would have been another way...Well it wasn't, and God chose His Church that He established, to do the job He established it to do..

 

[IamAdopted]

Yea we heard it before..if it wasn't Mary, it would have been someone else, if it wasn't a Council, it would have been another way...Well it wasn't, and God chose His Church that He established, to do the job He established it to do..

Scripture was already written Repentant. It took quite a while for all the letters to be gathered. There was much contraversy over what would go in and what wouldn't go in. It had to be authenticated. This took much study and prayer I would assume. But it is God who put His word together. For it is God who is faithful. God will use any means to get His word out to His people. We see this in all scripture. Many books were not added to the cannon for reasons. The CC and I don't know if the Ortho have these in their bibles. I have read some. I agree they just don't line up with the other scripture. there are spiritual err and historical err in them. So I will stick with the 66 books.

 

[E.C.]

Let's ignore the fact that early on once Christianity was spreading, the Jews all met up and decided to remove a few books they thought were "dangerous".


Let's also ignore this from 1 Peter 1:20-21 "knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit"


Question: who authenticated the books we now see in the Bible? (Deuterocannonical included because those books were included when THE Bible was put together)

 

[jckstraw72]

how come God put books together but let everything else go to crap -- like what the books actually mean? why was it so darned important to have a set of books even if their true meaning was lost until Luther?

 

[Kepha]

Now how do you see Mary in Genesis?

Here's a good analogy of to the Woman of Revelations with 4 referents to it: Israel, the Church, Eve, and Mary.