Debate on Covid Vaccination using cells from aborted baby.

[Carl Emerson]

This is a debate in Britian between Prof. John Wyatt(Neonatal Pediatrics) from UCL and Dave Brennan from the Pro-life group Brethos. Both are committed believers and have a different take on the ethics of the issue.
It is very informative regarding the role played by cells recovered from a deceased baby in 1972 - it is unclear if the baby was aborted or naturally miscarried.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

Yes. As I've said elsewhere, not one abortion will be stopped by a person refusing a vaccine, nor will one abortion be taking place for the purpose of creating the vaccine. As much as I disagree with the procedure, I am glad that some good can come from it.

 

[Under One King]

That's more than enough reason for me not to take it. Despicable.

 

[SilverBear]

Johnson and Johnson covid 19 vaccine line was manufactured with a fetal cell line specifically HEK-293: A kidney cell line that was isolated from a fetus in 1973 that was from a spontaneous miscarriage.

 

[RDKirk]

There is a forum rule not to post videos without a recap of what the video contains.

What do you think that video says?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Johnson and Johnson covid 19 vaccine line was manufactured with a fetal cell line specifically HEK-293: A kidney cell line that was isolated from a fetus in 1973 that was from a spontaneous miscarriage.

Austriaco, Nicanor (May 25, 2020). "Moral Guidance on Using COVID-19 Vaccines Developed with Human Fetal Cell Lines". Public Discourse. Witherspoon Institute. Retrieved December 23, 2020. I received an e-mail a few months ago from Professor Frank Graham, who established this cell line. He tells me that to the best of his knowledge, the exact origin of the HEK293 fetal cells is unclear. They could have come from either a spontaneous miscarriage or an elective abortion. Regardless, the abortions that gave rise to the three cell lines—or in the possible case of HEK293, the miscarriage—happened decades ago.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is a forum rule not to post videos without a recap of what the video contains.

What do you think that video says?

The video is a debate - it doesn't represent one line of argument.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Johnson and Johnson covid 19 vaccine line was manufactured with a fetal cell line specifically HEK-293: A kidney cell line that was isolated from a fetus in 1973 that was from a spontaneous miscarriage.

What's your source on these cells coming from a spontaneous miscarriage?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Awakening Consciences About Abortion-Tainted Vaccines

"Moral theologians advised that remote cooperation in evil is licit if there is no other option in the face of grave danger; but the theologians also deemed this situation a “moral coercion of the conscience” for parents intending to protect their children and communities. The guidance called this an “unjust alternative choice, which must be eliminated as soon as possible.” Catholics were told to “make life difficult for the pharmaceutical industries which act unscrupulously and unethically.” Many of us took that seriously."

 

[JDD_III]

There are 2 things people should consider in this debate:

1. If you are opposed to the use of a drug produced using HEK293 cells due to their fetal origin, then you should live by your word and convictions and refuse all modern medicine and biological advances. Virtually all research in labs across the world uses HEK293 and other similar cell lines, and most modern drugs (anti-cancer, etc) use HEK293 either directly or indirectly to manufacture biological drugs
(I make this point because most people who are "very ready" to use this as a reason not to take a vaccine are already biased against vaccines and usually much less willing to apply this standard everywhere logically they should, to be consistent and not be a hypocrite. This to me says more about what they want to believe rather than what they are willing to think through; see point 2).

2. I wonder if you would also refuse or denounce organ transplantation. Let's say specifically, a child on a waiting list for a new heart. A match comes in, another child is a match and has just died. Their parents have consented for their organs to be used in a donation. Do you agree with this? Now, let's say that this child, the donor, was murdered. Is the recipient of the donated organ complicit in that crime by receipt of the donation? Does receiving an organ from someone who was unlawfully killed make you approve of that crime? Does it make you complicit? Are you "remotely cooperating" with that evil?

I contest, that the vast majority of Christians would look at that scenario in point 2 above and say no, the murder was evil but independent and not for the purpose of allowing an organ to be donated to a recipient in need. Very few people I have spoken to about this scenario would call this immoral, for the child in need to receive the transplant.

This is virtually analogous with the issue at hand here. Were HEK293 cells derived from an aborted fetus? Yes, most likely. Was the fetus aborted for the purpose of scientific research? No, not to the best of our knowledge. So if those cells from the aborted fetus are grown on a plastic dish and then used in biological research or in a manufacturing process, why would we consider that cooperation in an evil?

 

[JDD_III]

That's more than enough reason for me not to take it. Despicable.

I take it then you will be refusing all forms of modern medicine from the last say 2-3 decades? Pretty much every lab in the world has advanced knowledge by experiments with these cells, and modern biological drugs use these cells for their manufacture. This is no exaggeration - HEK293's are one of the most widely used cell lines.

As I said, I guess that means you won't be accepting any modern medical treatment during your life then.

 

[bèlla]

We have no way of knowing the components in earlier and current treatments. All that we can do is entrust our care to God. If they want to expose you to aborted fetus cells there’s numerous ways to do so without your knowledge. Make peace with the unknown and place your trust in God.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

There are 2 things people should consider in this debate:

1. If you are opposed to the use of a drug produced using HEK293 cells due to their fetal origin, then you should live by your word and convictions and refuse all modern medicine and biological advances. Virtually all research in labs across the world uses HEK293 and other similar cell lines, and most modern drugs (anti-cancer, etc) use HEK293 either directly or indirectly to manufacture biological drugs
(I make this point because most people who are "very ready" to use this as a reason not to take a vaccine are already biased against vaccines and usually much less willing to apply this standard everywhere logically they should, to be consistent and not be a hypocrite. This to me says more about what they want to believe rather than what they are willing to think through; see point 2).

2. I wonder if you would also refuse or denounce organ transplantation. Let's say specifically, a child on a waiting list for a new heart. A match comes in, another child is a match and has just died. Their parents have consented for their organs to be used in a donation. Do you agree with this? Now, let's say that this child, the donor, was murdered. Is the recipient of the donated organ complicit in that crime by receipt of the donation? Does receiving an organ from someone who was unlawfully killed make you approve of that crime? Does it make you complicit? Are you "remotely cooperating" with that evil?

I contest, that the vast majority of Christians would look at that scenario in point 2 above and say no, the murder was evil but independent and not for the purpose of allowing an organ to be donated to a recipient in need. Very few people I have spoken to about this scenario would call this immoral, for the child in need to receive the transplant.

This is virtually analogous with the issue at hand here. Were HEK293 cells derived from an aborted fetus? Yes, most likely. Was the fetus aborted for the purpose of scientific research? No, not to the best of our knowledge. So if those cells from the aborted fetus are grown on a plastic dish and then used in biological research or in a manufacturing process, why would we consider that cooperation in an evil?

Or the stolen cells of Henrietta Lacks.

 

[Under One King]

I take it then you will be refusing all forms of modern medicine from the last say 2-3 decades? Pretty much every lab in the world has advanced knowledge by experiments with these cells, and modern biological drugs use these cells for their manufacture. This is no exaggeration - HEK293's are one of the most widely used cell lines.

As I said, I guess that means you won't be accepting any modern medical treatment during your life then.

Yes, that is pretty much what it means for me. I don't take medicine or medical treatment. If I get a terminal sickness, I will still refuse medicine and such. I trust that I will stay alive without it as long as God has planned.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Or the stolen cells of Henrietta Lacks.

Are they even used any more? They aren't quite 'normal' cells.

 

[RDKirk]

Are they even used any more? They aren't quite 'normal' cells.

I believe they're still in use. For sure, medical advances based on them are still in use. How picky do we want to get?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Yes, that is pretty much what it means for me. I don't take medicine or medical treatment. If I get a terminal sickness, I will still refuse medicine and such. I trust that I will stay alive without it as long as God has planned.

Would you get a broken bone set and put in a cast? Would you accept treatment for a bacterial infection?

At least as a Catholic I can avail myself of most of modern medicine. Not abortion or contraceptives or sterilization, and those things which are the direct byproducts of abortion. The reason these vaccines are controversial from a Catholic point of view are their indirect connection to abortion (although some may have even more direct connection and thus be unacceptable). The indirect connection to abortion is a complex moral issue of intentions and alternatives and necessities. We cannot will to cooperate with evil.

 

[Carl Emerson]

There is a forum rule not to post videos without a recap of what the video contains.

What do you think that video says?

Thanks for the reminder - I expanded the description.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I believe they're still in use. For sure, medical advances based on them are still in use. How picky do we want to get?

Don't want to be picky about it, but HeLa cells aren't normal. A treatment based on something learned from HeLa cells would have to be corroborated with normal cells.

 

[Under One King]

Would you get a broken bone set and put in a cast? Would you accept treatment for a bacterial infection?

At least as a Catholic I can avail myself of most of modern medicine. Not abortion or contraceptives or sterilization, and those things which are the direct byproducts of abortion. The reason these vaccines are controversial from a Catholic point of view are their indirect connection to abortion (although some may have even more direct connection and thus be unacceptable). The indirect connection to abortion is a complex moral issue of intentions and alternatives and necessities. We cannot will to cooperate with evil.

Yes, I would get a broken bone set. I'm more referring to medicine, and medical treatments such as those for cancer, and things like that.