Debate Dave on homosexuality

Aren't you tired daved? It must be so hard having to come on here and fight God day after day. I figure there's only so much a man can take before he surrenders to the Lord, but you sure are persistent. You even made your own personal thread - DEBATE DAVE! lol, you just dont get it

davedjy said:

You are off-topic.

I am not fighting God, I am repeating myself over and over on lots of threads.

again, debate me, or your response will be ignored.

THANKS!

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Give me a debateable topic, like's what's the best sport, or something like that...then we can debate all day

davedjy said:

What does this have to do with sports?

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This is a "debate thread" right? since homosexuality is not debateable, i'm giving u the option to choose something else that is debateable, seeing as you're so eager to debate....that's why i said we could debate sports, or if u dont like that, maybe best video game? best movie? Whatever you want

Time4AChange said:

This is a "debate thread" right? since homosexuality is not debateable, i'm giving u the option to choose something else that is debateable, seeing as you're so eager to debate....that's why i said we could debate sports, or if u dont like that, maybe best video game? best movie? Whatever you want

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And what is not debatable about homosexuality?

Or are perhaps the real questions:

• are the Scriptures are to be read absolutely literally?
• is any attempt to study the Scriptures in the historical, social, religious, political and linguistic period in which they were written nothing more than an attempt to "twist the plain meaning of the Scriptures"?
• we talk about about "justification by grace, through faith" — but do we mean "justification, by grace, through faith — and a whole bunch of laws which we (conservative evangelicals) get to decide which ones apply and which ones don't?"
• is the Bible absolutely inerrant and absolutely infallible in every single aspect and every detail possible?

And then, when we begin looking at those points, a whole bunch of things become debatable.

Unless, of course, we happen to believe:

• Anyone who doesn't believe the Bible is absolutely inerrant and absolutely infallible in every single aspect and detail possible doesn't believe the Bible at all, and people who don't believe the Bible don't believe in God, so therefore anyone who doesn't believe the bible is absolutely inerrant and absolutely infallible in every single aspect and detail possible doesn't believe in God — which is a logical fallacy because it is certainly quite possible not to accept Biblical inerrancy and infallibility and still believe in God.
• Since the Scriptures are between 2,000 and (approaching) 5,000 years old, perhaps a lot of meaning can be gleaned about the original intent of the authors by studying the Scriptures in the original languages (which was not King James English, by the way — nor did Jesus write the Scriptures) and by studying the Scriptures in the historical, social, political, religious and linguistic context of the period in which they were written to thresh out the author's original meaning.
• And maybe a lot of those "and you must also..." rules which we attach to justification by grace, through faith really don't have to do with one's relationship to God (since we're either justified by the Law or we're justified by grace, through faith — but not both and Paul is very clear about that) but they have everything to do with keeping people under control and preserving the "proper" social order and preserving the status quo. If you want to read the standard which Christians are to use in their behavior towards one another, read Romans 13 and 14 and Galatians 1 - 4.

As far as best movie: my choices are "Gone With the Wind", "All About Eve", and "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?" — but owing to your age (20) I doubt if you're familiar with any of them since they were produced in 1939, 1950 and 1965, respectively.

And as far as video games go: I don't play them. Sorry.

The Gay issue Pt 1

I too struggled for a good 25 years with the whole gay issue. I was worship leader for many years in our local church and at the same time I was also married for 10 years. Then at some point in my life I was also called to flow in the prophetic office. How was all this to happen when I knew I was gay?

Well, I spent the nights in prayer before God asking for His mercy and deliverance. In the end I had to learn that God did not approve of the fact that I was living a lie and my walk with God would not suffer. My spiritual growth was being restricted because of this.

Then one day I confessed to my wife I was gay and even though we were divorced, we stayed best friends to this day. I had to find out what God says about this because I knew what the church teaches. This is what I discovered.

The Eunuchs
I found that Jesus makes the following statement about Eunuchs:
Mat 19:11 But He said to them, Not all receive this word, except those to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs who were born so from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of Heaven's sake. He who is able to receive it, let him receive it.
The mere fact that men can be born in a certain way, makes it clear that there is something genetic about this. For the first time I knew I was born this way, where some hardcore preachers insist that this was a choice.
I also found that Daniel, the prophet, had a eunuch friend.

Dan 1:9 Now God had brought Daniel into favour and tender love with the prince of the eunuchs.

This friend, Melzar, had a tender love for Daniel. This was the best translation for such a sensitive situation. The fact was indeed that Melzar had a serious crush on Daniel. Melzar was the eunuch in charge of the other eunuchs. But the original Hebrew for this Tender Love was translated from the Hebrew word “Racham” which means intense or from the womb. I remember being in love with someone. Being absent from this person produced a very intense pain over my body especially in my heart, chest and belly. This was the love Melzar felt for Daniel, indicating he was gay.

So I learned from a prophetic point of view that eunuchs in the Bible has always been around. They were a prophetic type and shadow of the gay communities of the world today. They speak of those who cannot engage in a heterosexual relationship, whatever the reason may be.

Here is what God say about the gay communities of the world:

Isa 56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isa 56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isa 56:8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Wow! We are saved! God left a back door open for us! Thank heavens for God’s awesome grace
The Roman Centurion
The second miracle Jesus performed was the healing of the servant of the Roman Centurion.
Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this [man], Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth [it].
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Sadly, the KJV translators were homophobic and did not translate this correctly. The original Greek word used here was “pais”. This word was incorrectly translated as servant. In order to understand what this pais was, one must understand that in ancient Greek and later Roman culture an older man would take on a younger man to train in love and war. They would develop a strong love relationship, which included sex. An example of this was Achilles and Patroklos in Greek young lover of the centurion history.

Jesus knew this and yet He commended the faith of the centurion. There was no hatred or judgement of the centurion’s lover.

The quote from Leviticus
Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God.
We have all heard this one! It is such a clichéd quote. But the rest of this chapter is totally forgotten. The rest of it does not even exist! And I need to make a really serious point here. Lev 18 is a whole chapter with 30 verses. There is a theme here which is consistent. God has a problem with idolatry. He warns Moses to tell the children of Israel not to do what the inhabitants of the land do. They follow after other gods, and the sacrifices they offer included their own children. Sometimes men would have sex with the priest of the temple as a sacrificial ritual. God has a problem with gay sex in this context. This is the bigger picture and central theme of this chapter. But because of narrow-mindedness this point is totally overlooked.

I feel that I have made my point. There are other scriptures and there are books written that deal with these in detail. Such a book was “Openly Christian, Openly Gay” written by Rev Samuel Kader from Dayton, Ohio in the USA. I recommend this book to those who want to investigate the issue further.

This was enough for me. I knew God was OK with me and that was good enough for me.

The Gay issue Pt 2

The issue with Sodom and Gomorrah

This one is used a lot too. I recently heard a female preacher use this one in a women’s conference at the Potter’s House where TD Jakes is the bishop. I was rather disgusted though, as her ignorance was profound. That these preachers can preach such lies to incite hatred is beyond words.

The truth about Sodom and Gomorrah has nothing to do with homosexuality. I read Josh 10 one day. There is a mention of a certain book called the Book of Jasher. I found this book on the internet and read it. It contained a detailed account of what really happened in Sodom and Gomorrah in Chapters 18 – 19. I urge you to research this for yourself as the chapters are too long to post here. But it does tie in with a scripture I found elsewhere in the Bible:
Eze 16:48 [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters.
Eze 16:49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
Eze 16:50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw [good].
I think I have proved my point here, that our extremely zealous preachers are passionate about stirring up homophobia, which is rooted in hatred and fear. I also discuss this on my God’s Friends website for those who want to visit it.

Then there is "Secret Mark"

One of the Early Church Fathers, Bishop Clement of Alexandria, was found to have modified the Gospel of Mark. He admitted tampering with the Book of Mark. The portion of scripture removed was later known as Secret Mark. Clement wrote a letter to another church leader, in which he admits to making this modification. The portion of scripture Clement removed depicts a rich young man called Lazarus, being raised from the dead. But throughout this time he was scantily clad in a linen cloth. And the actual description creates the image of a very gay young John Lazarus. He was ultimately the John (John Lazarus) who laid his head on the chest of Jesus at the last supper. He is referred to as the man whom Jesus loved on a few places. He also pops up later in the Gospel of John and again in Mark:

Joh 21:20 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.

Mar 14:50 And they all forsook him, and fled.
Mar 14:51 And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about [his] naked [body]; and the young men laid hold on him:
Mar 14:52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.

Here is the missing scripture from Secret Mark:
"And they come into Bethany. And a certain woman whose brother had died was there. And, coming, she prostrated herself before Jesus and says to him, 'Son of David, have mercy on me.' But the disciples rebuked her. And Jesus, being angered, went off with her into the garden where the tomb was, and straightway a great cry was heard from the tomb. And going near, Jesus rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And straightaway, going in where the youth was, he stretched forth his hand and raised him, seizing his hand. But the youth, looking upon him, loved him and began to beseech him that he might be with him. And going out of the tomb, they came into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days Jesus told him what to do, and in the evening the youth comes to him, wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God. And thence, arising, he returned to the other side of the Jordan."

I hope that this post would somehow shed a bit of light on our darkness. I know many folks out there would not accept it, and they would rather see gay people burn in hell than be saved. I believe God’s Spirit is about to be poured out upon ALL flesh including the gay communities of the world. We so desperately need revival.

The Spirit of Jezebel and the Gay community

I have also come to understand that the spirit of Jezebel has had a personal vendetta against the gay community for thousands of years. She was ultimately killed by her own eunuchs (check out the Bible for this one!) and as a result she aims to rob us from our rightful inheritance and harvest – just as she did with Naboth and his vineyard. And in doing so the Body of Christ as a whole is being robbed of their rightful harvest. She needs to go and quickly too. The gay people will be the vessel of this once again. And then there is the promise in Rev 2-3 to those who do not tolerate her: They will be given a sceptre to rule the nations. Wow!! Is that not awesome? I am very excited about what God is going to do in the gay communities of the world, and already slowly some mainstream prophets out there are picking up on this.

Blessings and peace

Len

I had to look up the term Eunuch after reading Len's post. This is from Wikipedia:
Hence, Eunichs were celibate.

Thanks for the insight Karen. Jesus existed before wikipedia (with all due respect) and He said "Some are born this way". Hmmmm - I wonder if that means anything?

The eunuch in Dan 1 had a crush on Daniel. which implicates him as gay.

I also wonder why Jezebel's eunuchs were so quick to throw her off the castle wall. They must have despised her. Then again, she must have treated them with such hatred because she could not seduce them...

There is also then a prophetic implication to eunuchs in the Bible - The wider gay community. And hence the awesome promise in Isaiah for us.

Blessings and peace

Len
(Christians do not belong in spiritual comfort zones!)

Lenvdb said:

Thanks for the insight Karen. Jesus existed before wikipedia (with all due respect)

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good one!!!

and He said "Some are born this way". Hmmmm - I wonder if that means anything?

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I'm guessing it means that some were born to be celibate?

The eunuch in Dan 1 had a crush on Daniel. which implicates him as gay.

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Tender love = gay crush?

Blessings and peace

Len
(Christians do not belong in spiritual comfort zones!)

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Peace to you, too, Len, and I mean that sincerely
- from a sister in Christ who is definitely NOT in a 'comfort zone'.

Time4AChange said:

Give me a debateable topic, like's what's the best sport, or something like that...then we can debate all day

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This is a debatable topic. That's what this particular forum is about.

If you want to talk about sports, go here and the find a sport you'd like to discuss.

karen freeinchristman said:

I had to look up the term Eunuch after reading Len's post. This is from Wikipedia:

A eunuch is a castrated man; the term usually refers to those castrated in order to perform a specific social function, as was common in many societies of the past. The earliest records for intentional castration to produce eunuchs are from the Sumerian cities of Lagash in the 21st century BC[citation needed]. Over the millennia since, they have performed a wide variety of functions in many different cultures such as courtiers or equivalent domestics, treble singers, religious specialists, government officials, military commanders, and guardians of women or harem servants. In some societies, the notion of eunuch has been expanded to include men who are impotent with women or are simply celibate
​

Hence, Eunichs were celibate.

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not in the biblical times.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/rome.htm

mind you, read the last sentence of that extract you posted "impotent with women OR celibate"

Nice Link Brieuse!

It is a very well educated and researched/informed document on what eunuchs were and how the early rising Roman Church began its campaign against gay people. We are stuck with its dogmas to this day and we need to rid the church of this dogma.

Homophobia is rooted in fear and hate. God has not given us a spirit of fear but of Love, Power and a Sound Mind.

Blessings and peace my friend
(Len = Boksburg boy)

Lenvdb said:

Nice Link Brieuse!

It is a very well educated and researched/informed document on what eunuchs were and how the early rising Roman Church began its campaign against gay people. We are stuck with its dogmas to this day and we need to rid the church of this dogma.

Homophobia is rooted in fear and hate. God has not given us a spirit of fear but of Love, Power and a Sound Mind.

Blessings and peace my friend
(Len = Boksburg boy)

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vdb = van der berg?

schweet, I grew up in Benoni, in Joburg now.

Brieuse said:

not in the biblical times.

http://www.well.com/user/aquarius/rome.htm

mind you, read the last sentence of that extract you posted "impotent with women OR celibate"

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Interesting link, thanks.

karen freeinchristman said:

Interesting link, thanks.

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It's a pleasure

Lenvdb[FONT=Arial said:

I was living a lie and my walk with God would not suffer. My spiritual growth was being restricted because of this.[/font]

Then one day I confessed to my wife I was gay and even though we were divorced, we stayed best friends to this day. I had to find out what God says about this because I knew what the church teaches. This is what I discovered.

The Eunuchs
I found that Jesus makes the following statement about Eunuchs:
Mat 19:11 But He said to them, Not all receive this word, except those to whom it is given.
Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs who were born so from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men

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So you justified the divorce so you wouldn't have to live a lie? I was always taught that spiritual growth comes from denying the flesh.So being a sterile male makes them effeminate and gives them a same sex desire.It's hormones that give us sexual drive..And that drive worked with the right plumbing for procreation...As for books and authors you can find a book to justify pretty much any behavior..pax..Kim