Death & Salvation

[Analog]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

 

[ebia]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

He wouldn't, and therefore I'm forced to conclude that he hasn't.

 

[heron]

Bam, yes. But He knows what's in our hearts.
​

You know this one:
Mt 5:3 - Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

And maybe this one:
Mt 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Mt 18:4 Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mt 19:14 But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

We all deserve whatever may come, but our decision is to accept forgiveness. Which one of us hasn't terrorized a little brother, insulted a kid at school, pushed aside a coworker's input, cut our own piece of cake larger?

The word repentance has been so overused that we forget it just means change...to realize the wisdom of taking another path, and stop walking down the path we were on. (I'll use that term next time I go hiking, and see if anyone follows...right.)
​

II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

He gives us a choice, and the choice is always open. People might not take it because they associate salvation with pushy people, corrupt speakers, prohibitions, peer competition ("you need to do what I did") and stifling services.

God is about the universe, about life and solar systems and cell physiology and quarks and philosophy...about future and past.

Our decision to align ourselves with the Force behind the universe...that's communication and trust.
​

Ro 4:3 Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

 

[repentant]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

Well for one, there is no accept Jesus and bam instant heaven. There is ALOT more to salvation. Excepting Christ, being Baptized etc. is just the beginning.

Also God does not punish anyone, the people who are damned took it upon themselves. The suffering and burning fire of hell, is how the people who rejected Christ will feel God's love. We are never seperated from God, even in hell, and His love for us is eternal rather you are in heaven or hell. The people in heaven will be in extasy because of God's love for them. The people in hell will burn and suffer because of God's love. Suffering is basically how the damned will feel God's love.

Also God will judge each person differently. If someone did not have a chance to accept Christ because he never heard of Him, God will judge him accordingly. I do not believe God will punish out of ignorance.

As far as the righteous before Jesus came, i.e Moses, David, Isaiah, etc. They were followers of God when they were alive. Upon Jesus' death, they were entitled to the same salvation as anyone else after Him. His death and ressurection transceded all time. The 3 days he laid in the Tomb, He went down to hades, and freed all the righteous who were down there. Also John the Baptist preached Jesus' coming in hell, after he died from beheading. So these people could accept Him.

 

[12volt_man]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

Outside of Jesus Christ, everyone of us is bound for Hell. Jesus' atonement on the cross is the only available avenue of salvation.

However, Paul tells us in his letter to the Romans that God is just and merciful and will judge someone who has never heard the Gospel or who cannot understand the Gospel (perhaps due to their young age or a mental deficiency) based on what they have responded to, not what they haven't responded to.

Everyone has an opportunity for salvation relative to their understanding of the Gospel.

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

First of all, the Bible tells us that God is not everyone's Father, that we are at emnity with Him and become His children only when we come to the cross.

Second, while God is loving and merciful, He's also Holy and Righteous and Just.

His Holyness and Righteousness demand that He establish a moral code. His Justice demands that He enforces that code.

 

[heron]

By "bam," I mean that the thief on the cross beside Jesus was assured, "Today you will be with me in paradise," just by expressing that He knew Jesus' intent. (Not to be confused with Viva la Bam.)

The Christian life, that's another thing. It's a continual learning process, a search, a working out of the flaws in us that keep us from caring for others and representing our faith well.

I consider the kingdom a whole realm of life, almost a third dimension, where God is actively working with His saints to solve problems, meet needs, and protect the innocent. We can't see it unless we yield ourselves to God. We don't understand what He's trying to accomplish until we hand our agendas over to Him, and offer to participate in His.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

 

[Adstar]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

Well those who never had a chance to accept Jesus as Messiah i believe God will be just in dealing with them.

But for those who have heard the Gospel, who have been given the loving news of forgivness through Jesus and reject Jesus as the Way to eternity with God and have rejected the Love of this truth.. I believe they will be damned in eternity.

Salvation is a true Gift to be a true gift it must be given without any form of payment or seeking of a return.

Those who accept the gift of salvation deserve it because they meekly accept that they can not earn it with their deeds of moral accomplishments. No one saved will be able to boast that they earned it. It is Gods joy to save those who agree with His will and are contrite towards Him. No human can achieve perfection in this world and God has made a way for us to be deemed perfectly acceptable in eternity.
Not by our doing but by His doing. He has saved us. All glory and honor is to the God of Abraham. How wonderful is the Way He has made for those who love the truth. How light is His burden. All one has to do is accept the Loving gift and follow Jesus in the right spirit.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[repentant]

By "bam," I mean that the thief on the cross beside Jesus was assured, "Today you will be with me in paradise," just by expressing that He knew Jesus' intent. (Not to be confused with Viva la Bam.)

Well the theif accepted Christ immediatly before dying. If someone accepts Christ, get Baptized etc. Then drops dead, he will be saved. All his former sins were forgiven, and didn't have a chance to sin again, or lose his salvation. But that is not what some people mean when they say "once saved always saved", a theory which is totally false.

 

[Sophia7]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

Christians have many different views on these subjects. Here are mine. First of all, I believe that God does not automatically condemn those who have not had an opportunity to hear about Jesus (although the Bible says in Romans 1:20 that the natural world itself testifies about God so that no one has an excuse to be completely ignorant about God). Here is a quote from Jesus Himself regarding those who rejected Him during His life on earth: "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin" (John 15:22). This is just one verse, but it shows that God takes into account the knowledge that people have. The Bible also makes it clear that God wants everyone to have a chance to hear about Jesus; as Christians, we believe that it is our mission to tell everyone about Jesus (as set forth in what is often called "The Great Commission" in Matthew 28:19-20). Obviously, some people have died without ever hearing about Jesus, but He is trying to reach everyone and to give everyone a chance to either accept or reject Him based on their knowledge of Him.

Also, He doesn't want to condemn anyone to hell:

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:8-9)

Now, as far as death and hell, I have different beliefs on this than many other Christians. In case anyone is interested, I am posting links here to a couple of other threads that explain this more fully and give biblical evidence for these beliefs:

Death:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2196368-the-bible-doctrine-concerning-death.html

Hell:
http://www.christianforums.com/t2462490-comments-on-hell-to-be-revised-soon.html#post21029584

Here is a brief summary of my beliefs. Please see the above links for the biblical evidence.

I believe that humans do not have an immortal soul and that the body and soul are not separate. I believe that at death we do not immediately go to heaven but that we remain in the grave, with no consciousness of anything--that is, we cease to exist in body or spirit form--until Jesus resurrects us and takes us to heaven at the Second Coming. We do not gain immortality until then.

My belief on hell is related to this. Since the soul is not immortal, it can die:

"So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:26-28)

Those who have chosen to reject God's offer of eternal life will be killed but not burned for eternity in hell. They will die the second death that Revelation talks about. They will die finally and completely, not be tormented forever. I believe that this will happen when the earth is made new. The old earth will be destroyed by fire and those who have chosen not to accept God will be destroyed with it. Then there will be no more death or sorrow or pain (Revelation 21:4).

Finally, you asked why a loving creator and father would eternally damn his children. Apart from the idea of whether hell is everlasting or not, there is still the issue of why He would kill them at all. The truth is that we damn ourselves. God doesn't want anyone to die, but we have all sinned (Romans 3:23). According to the Bible the penalty for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life (Romans 6:23). God is just, but He is also merciful. That's why He has given us knowledge of Him, through the Bible, through nature, through Jesus. By Jesus' death and resurrection, He has made a way for everyone to be saved. Jesus served our death sentence for us, but if we know that and choose not to accept His pardon, then our sins are on our own heads. The choice of what we do with our knowledge of God is ours. And if we choose to turn away from God, he mourns for us just as we would mourn for our own children if they disowned us, but He still has to administer justice. One of the clearest examples of God's feelings on this is in the book of Ezekiel:

Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! (Ezekiel 18:30b-32)

Being a Christian is not about doing all the right things so that we won't go to hell forever. It's about loving God because of everything He has done to save us from hell. It's about being forgiven for our sins so that they no longer condemn us to death. It's about having our minds transformed by the power of God so that we no longer want to do those things that tear us away from Him.

 

[Merlin]

Hello,

Jesus is the one who 'paid the bill'.
Therefore the only was to eternal life is through what Jesus did, or 'through Jesus'

But we are actually 'saved' by trusting in the Creator of all things for our salvation.

 

[Rafael]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

God will be perfectly just, and our imaginations should be that He will be. He is master of time and eternity, and nothing is ever lost to Him. All will stand before Him and give an account for what they have been given in life. Do we judge for God....no, but we often judge Him because we are ignorant of Him as Creator and the very essence of true love. Can someone who would give His life for another who is guilty ever judge unjustly....well, I suppose He would be more inclined to judge with leniency than with any notion to the otherwise, seeing that He has bore the sins of the guilty on a cross of pain and humiliation.

 

[Analog]

Why did Jesus need to die then ? Why would a God need to 'kill' part of himself ?

 

[Adstar]

Why did Jesus need to die then ? Why would a God need to 'kill' part of himself ?

To provide a perfect sacrifice for atonement of sins. For all that will believe Jesus in the Messiah.





All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[heron]

Every human dies eventually. God allowed the process to play out, just as He allows it for all other humans. The Son of God completely and fairly lived out a human life.

The life beyond the death is free of harassment, guilt, injustices, bills to pay, and fears. It's something we can all look forward to, through choice.

 

[Merlin]

Why did Jesus need to die then ? Why would a God need to 'kill' part of himself ?

The death was to help us understand just how horrible sin is to God.

 

[BarbB]

Why did Jesus need to die then ? Why would a God need to 'kill' part of himself ?

Have you ever read the Old Testament? Especially what are called the books of History - After reading them, I understood totally how patient God has been in providing a way for us to be saved.

God didn't kill a part of himself, because Jesus is risen and alive today. God instead provided the perfect sin sacrifice when he provided us with a sinless human being who would carry the punishment for our sins on himself and die, and yet rise again and give us a way to heaven. Lots better than lambs!

 

[Stinker]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

Concerning those who have died without ever hearing the Gospel:



12If you sin without knowing what you're doing, God takes that into account. But if you sin knowing full well what you're doing, that's a different story entirely. 13Merely hearing God's law is a waste of your time if you don't do what he commands. Doing, not hearing, is what makes the difference with God. 14When outsiders who have never heard of God's law follow it more or less by instinct, they confirm its truth by their obedience. 15They show that God's law is not something alien, imposed on us from without, but woven into the very fabric of our creation. There is something deep within them that echoes God's yes and no, right and wrong. 16Their response to God's yes and no will become public knowledge on the day God makes his final decision about every man and woman. The Message from God that I proclaim through Jesus Christ takes into account all these differences. (Romans 2:12-16)

 

[thepianist]

What are the christian views on death and salvation ? I understand one view is that you MUST accept jesus as your savour and then bam, instant heaven on death. But that however doesn't seem fair nor just (as i see it) when you consider those who didn't have the same level opptunity to accept jesus. So under christian beliefs, are all those people damned to hell ?

If so, why on earth would a ever loving creator, father, enternally damn his creations and children.

I truly believe that God ALWAYS makes the way of salvation available to every person before they die.....if He didn't, then He wouldn't be a just God. Yes, if a person receives Jesus Christ as their Saviour they will go to heaven when they die. If a person doesn't accept Jesus then they will go to hell when the last breath leaves their body.

Jesus said in John 14:6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." So, you see, there are no shortcuts, there is no way to sidestep your way into heaven.....there is only one way - and that is to receive Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour. You will see the way to heaven in my signature under this post...my prayer is that you will follow it, my friend.

 

[Analog]

To provide a perfect sacrifice for atonement of sins. For all that will believe Jesus in the Messiah.

I hope I'm not being too annoying, but, why the need for a sacrifice at all ? I've always interpreted the animal sacrifices pre-christian religions as being a payment / tribute to the Gods. If animals were good enough before Jesus, why aren't they good enough now ?

Also Out of intrest, the whole animal scarifice stuff, how did that come about ? Was it a deal (conventment i think is the proper word) God made with his early people or something else ???

 

[heron]

haha, who wants to tackle this one?

The first mention of sacrifice was with Cain and Abel. One day, Cain gave God a gift from grain or fruit he had grown. Then Abel offered firstborn lambs. God was shaken and impressed by Abel's gift. In my opinion, God never imagined that Abel would be willing to go so far--lambs can be like pets, even though they're eventually used for meat.

Abel, on his part also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and for his offering
("gazed at")

God paid more attention to Abel, and Cain got angry and jealous. God told him not to let his anger control him.

That's all I'll say for now... someone else can add to the continued history of sacrifice. Something that most people miss, is that in the Law, the meat was used to feed the priests and their families. Some offerings were to be eaten by the person who brought it, and some given to the poor. So it's not just random killing, like throwing people into volcanos.