Death Penalty

Are you "FOR" or "AGAINST" the death penalty. See post for additional details.

  • I am FOR the death penalty

  • I am AGAINST the death penalty

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Judy02

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If God tells you to spare a life, you spare that life.

If we were in a perfect world where people were 100% submitted to God, then that might work. But people who are in governing authorities won't always be submitted to God. They will, kill because they want to, rather than concerned with what God has to say about it. And evil leaders have been allowed to get away with all kinds of evil since probably forever. Not everyone in a position of authority is right,(although some will be) or doing God's will, or there because God wants them to be, or approves what they do. In practice, people won't always be executed because it was God's will.
 
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Sketcher

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If we were in a perfect world where people were 100% submitted to God, then that might work. But people who are in governing authorities won't always be submitted to God. They will, kill because they want to, rather than concerned with what God has to say about it. And evil leaders have been allowed to get away with all kinds of evil since probably forever. Not everyone in a position of authority is right,(although some will be) or doing God's will, or there because God wants them to be, or approves what they do. In practice, people won't always be executed because it was God's will.
You think God didn't consider that when He commanded that certain people be executed? Where you start with execution is executing people for what God said to execute them for. For example, executing a murderer would be just, but executing a non-violent thief would be unjust. And as for these evil men, I wouldn't trust their prison conditions to be humane enough to be a fan of life sentencing. I'd rather get it over with in a hurry if I was imprisoned by evil men.
 
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Judy02

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You think God didn't consider that when He commanded that certain people be executed? Where you start with execution is executing people for what God said to execute them for. For example, executing a murderer would be just, but executing a non-violent thief would be unjust.

The thing is, God did extend mercy to some killers, guilty of the death penalty, in the Bible. To automatically kill off all killers isn't always what happened in the bible. And there will be people in authority, who aren't submitted or even care about God's will.

There have been some appalling things done by leaders, and government in the past, which have been allowed to go on for years, which were evil, and in no way part of God's will. So I don't thinkI can trust the fact, that a person might be let off by the government if God believes they should be. What God believes, and what leaders have done, has definetely not always reflected the same thing.
 
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Sketcher

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The thing is, God did extend mercy to some killers, guilty of the death penalty, in the Bible. To automatically kill off all killers isn't always what happened in the bible. And there will be people in authority, who aren't submitted or even care about God's will.
However, that was the normative rule in the Bible.
 
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Suomipoika

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In a state without the death penalty, he'd just stay in prison for life and never go to Russia, unless he was pardoned.

I don't know about that. Well, seemingly you have only 2 choices there; death penalty and pardon? It's so different here in a country that I believe practically hasn't been harbor for one single electric chair within its borders during its existence. One thing that I'm really happy about. Not that Finland, in general, would be any more a "Christian country" than the U.S.

Anyway, the choices for this guy in Finland would have been 1) continuation of the lifetime sentence that was originally prescribed for him 2) pardon and 3) maybe something from between, which I'm not really sure about, not knowing everything about the criminal jurisdiction here.

I myself would have normally been for the option 1, going on with his life sentence. He experienced a radical, genuine conversion while in prison but should still be pay for his past crimes (which does NOT mean pulling the switch!!). Or maybe in some case option 2, meaning a shortened sentence. However, I believe it was God who intervened and caused something very radical to happen: a pardon straight from the president, which is extremely rare. And so he got to go on the path that was prepared for him - around the prsion world of Russia and Finland.


Which brings the issue back to pardoning. Hopefully the only people who would pardon any criminals would be close to the Lord at very least in this matter. After all, if someone's faking it and you're fooled and pardon him, there will be other deaths and/or rapes on your conscience.

Pardoning/paroling someone is hit-and-miss every time. For some people like this man and a certain friend of mine, it is a good and necessary reflection of God's grace. For others, it is merely a loophole to take advantage of. The friend of mine who did time - he's one of the good apples, but he is also very aware of the bad apples because he was hanging around them. He knows the games people play to get out of jail sooner rather than later. He knows that some people really do want to change and get their life straightened out, while others will sign up for programs like AA (even if they don't drink) for the sole reason of getting out early.

Reijo used those tricks a few times earlier. He wrote "bleeding-heart" letters to impress the prison personnel and make them believe he'd changed his ways. He got away from the prison in that shrewd way when he was still sentenced for 'lesser' crimes. When his lifetime sentence began, those tricks were naturally no longer of use. Anyway, he used to have a very untrustworthy reputation among other prisoners. Maybe he should have been executed when he was still in that state?

Romans 13:4 IS post-Calvary. Written by Paul, no less, who earned the death penalty for himself a hundred times over. If there's an argument for grace and letting people live, Paul is it - yet he wrote this.

Romans 13:3-4:

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

And what authorities did Paul call here as "God's servants"? What else than the ones of the Roman empire around him. Authorities that ended up persecuting and killing Christians. Well, any authority is better than anarchy. But I seriously wonder if Paul literally considered these authorities God-ordained in every detail. His advice was that rebellion is not something that Christians should get involved with and that Christians should even rather suffer a martyr death in the name of Christ if things get that heated. But taking these verses to back up something that a society does "in the name of authority" is not good logic.

And, if you agree that Paul himself had his hands stained with the blood of Christians, then why didn't he insist that the Christians in his community implement the death penalty that belonged to him, if he realized what he was guilty of after his conversion?
 
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charlie_hunter

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Pretty much from those in the US? Maybe its because we are one of the few countries left with a backbone.


Saudi Arabia has more of a backbone than the US, it's government murders more of it's citizens than America's. But the award for the country with the biggest backbone has to go to North Korea, you dont even need to break the law to get shot! And there's nothing wrong with North Korea's government killing it's citizens, they're the authorites so it's bibically ok!

here's a bible quote against killing in cold blood,

'Thou shall not kill'

seems pretty straight forward to me. the whole world is black and white yeah?
 
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charlie_hunter

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"Interesting that we introduced the modern democracy to the West and our society isn't unraveling as fast as Europe. Know what's really pathetic? Within the next century, there will be significant pushes for Sharia law in the UK and several other European nations, and that will add the death penalty and so many other conventions that the socialists are trying to shake off."


hmmmm........could happen, if you look at current events, but if we keep looking at current events then
America will fall into a facist military depotism before that would happen in Europe. America allready indefinatly detains people without actually charging them with an offence. I dont see that as a culture that loves justice.


Great posts Judy!!!
 
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Judy02

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Saudi Arabia has more of a backbone than the US, it's government murders more of it's citizens than America's. But the award for the country with the biggest backbone has to go to North Korea, you dont even need to break the law to get shot! And there's nothing wrong with North Korea's government killing it's citizens, they're the authorites so it's bibically ok!

here's a bible quote against killing in cold blood,

'Thou shall not kill'

seems pretty straight forward to me. the whole world is black and white yeah?

:p
I think he just enjoys being patriotic half the time and thinks American politics and policy, and the will of God are somehow always synonymous...

The only way I have some respect for pro DP arguments is those who are concerned with the victims and protecting others...but apart from that I just hear hatred.

All of a sudden people behave as if all murderers just don't matter to anyone anymore, and their lives are meaningless...hmmm well they are still important to God. They have also gone deeper into the world, and are gripped by satan, and are more in need for saving, and being reached out to. A Christian who's first thought about a murderer is praying for them, and wanting them to change their lives around rather than being bloodthirsty certainly earns my respect first ;)
 
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charlie_hunter

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:p
I think he just enjoys being patriotic half the time and thinks American politics and policy, and the will of God are somehow always synonymous...
i've noticed a lot of Americans do that!

I think the funny punchline is that they are so pro 'seperation of church and state' unlike the UK which the head of state is also the head of the church! yet they think the (US) states actions are God's will and are not accountable to other nations.

If it didnt get so many people killed around the globe through war/poverty/climate change it would be quite a laugh actually.

I really like your posts on this thread, they're well thought out!
 
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Suomipoika

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All the arguements against the Death Penalty are emotional, not rational. That in itself should tell you something.

Read on the thread, my friend. And don't come to tell me about rationale before you yourself stop resorting to rhetorics like the one above and stop rejecting others' arguments firsthand just because you have succesfully labelled the persons in question "emotional".

Maybe its because we are one of the few countries left with a backbone.

And what is the rationale/emotional proportion in that comment? Remember that patriotrism can get trigger some 'emotions', too.:D
 
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Judy02

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i've noticed a lot of Americans do that!

I think the funny punchline is that they are so pro 'seperation of church and state' unlike the UK which the head of state is also the head of the church! yet they think the (US) states actions are God's will and are not accountable to other nations.

If it didnt get so many people killed around the globe through war/poverty/climate change it would be quite a laugh actually.

Lol, some Americans I've spoken to on here don't cdo it too, but I know what you mean. Sometimes you're trying to have a discussion about an issue/principle in the bible, and all of a sudden they start talking about American policy, and I'm thinking...it's not a political discussion :scratch: Can we just forget about the world's leaders for one second, and everything about it, and just look at the bible. The danger is when we become so proud and worshipful of our own country, we then look at policy first then look gfor ways to try and fit the bible around it.
But yeah I've only noticed that tendancy since joining CF. Haven't heard it very often when talking to Christians I know around here in the UK, and all of a sudden people are advocating labour or the tories at the same time :p

I really like your posts on this thread, they're well thought out![/quote]

meh, cheers, I try to think deeply about things. I think reading the whole bible, people can see reasons for and against it, by using scripture. But this is an issue I've thought about for a long time. Spoken to me when I was 17, I would have been a scary 'lets kill off all murderers' supporter, but I just think the concept of death is such a serious one, especially for christians who believe in an immortal soul, and everlasting life. It isn't just about the effects of the immediate here and now, but the eternal effects that come with killing someone.
It should be a much less black and white answer of who deserves what, especially when very few people on earth are really going to know for sure whether someone will remain unrepentant, and their time is up. God's timing with someone isn't always going to be dependant on some country's legal system, and policies.

In all honest opinion - I think corruption exists in all government at times. It's all too easy to abuse and become selfish when given that much power. If people can do what they like when in such a position...it's very likely that they will at some point.
 
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Tuffguy

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It isn't the new rule if you decide all murderers should automatically be killed off if thats not what happened in the bible.


This example is meaningless. God doesn't directly talk to us and intervien in our govermental affairs. He doesn't lead us with a cloud of smoke that speaks and gives orders. He has given us the Bible to use as a guide.
 
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Tuffguy

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The point wasn't about they not needing to be punished, or that what they did was ok, (I think there should be a harsh punishment - just not death) but desiring as much of a chance as possible for those to repent and know christ, and not to want them to go to hell. In other words, delaying the punishment, like God is doing at the moment, Judgement day with Gid will come, but it is being witheld for now, because God is patient, and wants to give plentiful opportunity for people to turn to him.

The time is set.
God isn't waiting for more believers. He knows who will come to Him and who will not. He as predisposed those that will come to Him anyway.

Aren't more unbelievers born every day? By delaying judgement, wouldn't He be sending more to hell?

Your logic sounds good, but it doesn't hold.
 
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Sketcher

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I don't know about that. Well, seemingly you have only 2 choices there; death penalty and pardon? It's so different here in a country that I believe practically hasn't been harbor for one single electric chair within its borders during its existence. One thing that I'm really happy about. Not that Finland, in general, would be any more a "Christian country" than the U.S.

Anyway, the choices for this guy in Finland would have been 1) continuation of the lifetime sentence that was originally prescribed for him 2) pardon and 3) maybe something from between, which I'm not really sure about, not knowing everything about the criminal jurisdiction here.

I myself would have normally been for the option 1, going on with his life sentence. He experienced a radical, genuine conversion while in prison but should still be pay for his past crimes (which does NOT mean pulling the switch!!). Or maybe in some case option 2, meaning a shortened sentence. However, I believe it was God who intervened and caused something very radical to happen: a pardon straight from the president, which is extremely rare. And so he got to go on the path that was prepared for him - around the prsion world of Russia and Finland.
Yes, a life sentence is a possibility, but a trip to Russia is not a possibility without a pardon.

Oh, and if he should still pay for his past crimes, why not execute him? If he's forgiven, there's a case for no more consequences at all, but if he still has to pay consequences, why would the consequences lessen? I would think it's an all-or-nothing deal.

Reijo used those tricks a few times earlier. He wrote "bleeding-heart" letters to impress the prison personnel and make them believe he'd changed his ways. He got away from the prison in that shrewd way when he was still sentenced for 'lesser' crimes. When his lifetime sentence began, those tricks were naturally no longer of use. Anyway, he used to have a very untrustworthy reputation among other prisoners. Maybe he should have been executed when he was still in that state?
Possibly. He did deserve it after all, it would have been the right thing to do. God had different plans, and I am glad about that.

Romans 13:3-4:

3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

And what authorities did Paul call here as "God's servants"? What else than the ones of the Roman empire around him. Authorities that ended up persecuting and killing Christians. Well, any authority is better than anarchy. But I seriously wonder if Paul literally considered these authorities God-ordained in every detail. His advice was that rebellion is not something that Christians should get involved with and that Christians should even rather suffer a martyr death in the name of Christ if things get that heated. But taking these verses to back up something that a society does "in the name of authority" is not good logic.
It's very good logic, because that's what the text says. As for the details of their ordination, he obviously believed they had enough authority from God to bear the sword, and that is what decides the issue here.

And, if you agree that Paul himself had his hands stained with the blood of Christians, then why didn't he insist that the Christians in his community implement the death penalty that belonged to him, if he realized what he was guilty of after his conversion?
Because none of those Christians were governing authorities, therefore they had no authority to do this. It is the same reason why Peter and Jude didn't include instructions to take out the false teachers they condemn so vehemently in their letters.
 
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Suomipoika

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Yes, a life sentence is a possibility, but a trip to Russia is not a possibility without a pardon.

Oh, and if he should still pay for his past crimes, why not execute him? If he's forgiven, there's a case for no more consequences at all, but if he still has to pay consequences, why would the consequences lessen? I would think it's an all-or-nothing deal.

1st of all: not execute because for me that option is automatically ruled out.

2nd: yes, pay for his past crimes by being kept behind the bars even after his conversion. The premise being that (especially in a democratic society) you can't just go and release someone who says he's found Christ. For one thing, then you should probably release anyone who says they've found Buddha or Allah, too? And yes, even I want people to be safe on the streets and I don't want to see serious criminals being allowed to run wild. That's what the prisons are for. I am for equal treatment for equal crimes, and I think there should be extremely weighty reasons for releasing someone before their due time.

But then, one could say that's when "God's ways" come in. This man actually spent a few years in prison after his conversion. And I haven't read through his biography yet, but something happened and the prseident decided to mete him a pardon, and that is something extremely rare even here. And that president wasn't even the most openly Christian one in world history. But then again, so weren't all the public figures in the Bible that God chose to "use" in some way.


It's very good logic, because that's what the text says. As for the details of their ordination, he obviously believed they had enough authority from God to bear the sword, and that is what decides the issue here.

Because none of those Christians were governing authorities, therefore they had no authority to do this. It is the same reason why Peter and Jude didn't include instructions to take out the false teachers they condemn so vehemently in their letters.

So, then God might have thought something like the following: "Oh Paul, right now I'm glad that your fellow Christians are not in the position of the governing authorities, because if that were the case I would have no choice but let you in their hands and let them do to you what is the right thing in your case. I'm glad that they have a pagan rule in this land right now so that I can actually use you and make you that apostle instead of being executed for persecution of my faithful, which would be my real will, after all".

Hypothetical and arbitrary? I don't think so after all.

If God knew that some day some Christians would be in the position of governing authorities, what kind of weird precedent is it from him to so powerfully use a man who should be executed under a "Christian" regime? (Because that's what many of you here would think, righ? I mean, if a raper should be executed, then maybe a maniac persecuter of a group of people, too? And I really find rape a horrible and outrageous thing...)

Thats fine, However I hope that Myself and others have pointed where the Bible is not.

So, we're on Biblical grounds? True, the Old Testament prescribes death penalty for many things, including adultery and homosexual activity. The question is, why don't you? Where in the Bible has the death penalty for these "lesser" transgressions been explicitly abolished?
 
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JacobHall86

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I quoted from Genesis 9 and Romans 13. One says that murderers are to be put to death, and one says that the Govt has the authority to use the sword.

I advocate it for Murderers, Rapists and Child Molesters.
 
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