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Death Before Sin

LightBearer

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Lightbearer said:
Only if and when Adam had passed the test of obedeince by not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, thus proving faithful, would he have been allowed to eat of the tree of life, symbolising God's finnally granting upon him the gift of everlasting life.
Lightbearer said:
w81minit said:
Can you provide a reference for this?
Genesis 3:22-24 And Jehovah God went on to say: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—" With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E´den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.


Regards,


LB
 
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w81minit

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LightBearer said:
Genesis 3:22-24 And Jehovah God went on to say: "Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—" With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E´den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.




Regards,



LB
This doesn't demonstrate the test he needed to pass and life eternal as a reward. It only demonstrates that God (Once man fell) was unwilling to let man in his dying state live forever. My previous post indicated that man's fall was both physical and spiritual. I do not see where you discovered that there was a test with fruit from the tree of life as the reward.
 
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Asimov

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LightBearer said:
It is in this sense that he knows the future. The future as he has fortold in scripture therefore is a foregon conclusion because he will with his omnipotence and omniscience bring about the very future that he wants.
Then we have no choices in the matter...Adam had no choices, and neither did anybody else, because he gets what future he wants!


Jehovah is a God of the Past, Present and Future. The Bible is a gift from him that very much concerns the Past, Present and Future and as demonstrated above he is very concerned with time.
I didn't say he wasn't those. I'm saying he's not bound by those. I asked you to prove reasonably and logically how an all-knowing being, can not know something. You didn't.

You just provided scripture, which I didn't want. If Scripture suggests that God does not know something, as you claim, then God is not all-knowing.

Omniscient means all-knowing. If you have to find out things, you are not all-knowing. If you have to investigate things, you are not all-knowing.
 
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LightBearer

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w81minit said:
This doesn't demonstrate the test he needed to pass and life eternal as a reward. It only demonstrates that God (Once man fell) was unwilling to let man in his dying state live forever. My previous post indicated that man's fall was both physical and spiritual. I do not see where you discovered that there was a test with fruit from the tree of life as the reward.
Why was the tree of life planted in the garden before the fall? What purpose was it to serve?
Genesis 2:9 Thus Jehovah God made to grow out of the ground every tree desirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.​
Regards,​
LB​
 
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LightBearer

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Asimov said:
Then we have no choices in the matter...Adam had no choices, and neither did anybody else, because he gets what future he wants!




Again, a very arbitrary view.





God has control over the future in that his will will be done on earth, that is, he will bring about what he has promised in scripture and fulfil his original purpose for this earth.
Genesis 1:28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."


Isaiah 55:10-11 For just as the pouring rain descends, and the snow, from the heavens and does not return to that place, unless it actually saturates the earth and makes it produce and sprout, and seed is actually given to the sower and bread to the eater, so my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it.
Matthew 6:9-10 ‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth.
Psalm 46:9 He is making wars to cease to the extremity of the earth. The bow he breaks apart and does cut the spear in pieces; The wagons he burns in the fire.
Proverbs 2:21-22 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.
Psalm 37:10-11 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more; And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth, And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth, And they will reside forever upon it.
Revelation 11:18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”
Revelation 21:3-4 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”




This does not mean that individuals can not choose for themselves whether or not they wish to be part of this future.

Asimov said:
I didn't say he wasn't those. I'm saying he's not bound by those. I asked you to prove reasonably and logically how an all-knowing being, can not know something. You didn't.
Asimov said:
You just provided scripture, which I didn't want. If Scripture suggests that God does not know something, as you claim, then God is not all-knowing

Omniscient means all-knowing. If you have to find out things, you are not all-knowing. If you have to investigate things, you are not all-knowing.
He does know everything that exists, past and present. As for the future, since it hasn’t happened yet he can choose to see it or not without this detracting from his omniscience. In the strict sense of the word Omniscience means “All Knowing” only for knowledge that has already been revealed or exists up to the present. It does not necessarily have to include the future since it has not happened. His being able to look into the future and foresee things that have not happened yet or "Investigate" as you say does not detract from his omniscience but enhances or adds to it.

Regards,

LB
 
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Asimov

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LightBearer said:
God has control over the future in that his will will be done on earth, that is, he will bring about what he has promised in scripture and fulfil his original purpose for this earth.


This does not mean that individuals can not choose for themselves whether or not they wish to be part of this future.



Those two quotes are contradictory. If God has control over the future, then we cannot choose.

He does know everything that exists, past and present. As for the future, since it hasn’t happened yet he can choose to see it or not without this detracting from his omniscience. In the strict sense of the word Omniscience means “All Knowing” only for knowledge that has already been revealed or exists up to the present. It does not necessarily have to include the future since it has not happened. His being able to look into the future and foresee things that have not happened yet or "Investigate" as you say does not detract from his omniscience but enhances or adds to it.
No it doesn't!

Omniscience:

om·nis·cient ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (
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adj. Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
Total knowledge; that's everything that was known, is known, and will be known. Past, present, and future.
 
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LightBearer

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Asimov said:
[/color]
Those two quotes are contradictory. If God has control over the future, then we cannot choose.


No they are not.

Example: In the scripture in Psalm 37 where God is deternined to bring an end to those he considers wicked. Dont individuals now have a choice whether or not to comply with Gods appeal to repent and therefore escape the destruction of such ones.

Asimov said:


That’s mans view of what omniscient means or should mean, it's not God's view. Ultimately, it's God’s own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, that are the deciding factors as to whether he is omniscient or not. The term also includes “All Wise”

A more accurate explanation of the meaning.

Omniscience is the capacity to know everything that can be known. In monotheism, this ability is typically attributed to God. It is typically contrasted with omnipotence. Omniscience is sometimes understood to also imply the capacity to know everything that will be. www.free-definition.com/Omniscience.html

Regards,

LB
 
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Asimov

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LightBearer said:
[/font]

No they are not.

Example: In the scripture in Psalm 37 where God is deternined to bring an end to those he considers wicked. Dont individuals now have a choice whether or not to comply with Gods appeal to repent and therefore escape the destruction of such ones.


No, they don't have a choice, God is omniscient.


That’s mans view of what omniscient means or should mean, it's not God's view. Ultimately, it's God’s own will and good pleasure, not human opinions or concepts, that are the deciding factors as to whether he is omniscient or not. The term also includes “All Wise”

A more accurate explanation of the meaning.

Omniscience is the capacity to know everything that can be known. In monotheism, this ability is typically attributed to God. It is typically contrasted with omnipotence. Omniscience is sometimes understood to also imply the capacity to know everything that will be. www.free-definition.com/Omniscience.html

Regards,

LB
Oh sure, if you change the meaning of omniscient, then yea, it all makes sense now. :rollseyes:

Your definition of Omniscient is simply your view of what omniscient should mean, and not necessarily God's view of what it should mean. If man cannot apply what omniscience is to God, then obviously you shouldn't be able to either.

If we can't describe God in human terms, then God is undescribable, and therefore unknowable.

For reference:

http://selfknowledge.com/65654.htm
Omniscient (Om*nis"cient) (?), a.
[Omni- + L. sciens, -entis, p. pr. of scire to know: cf. F. omniscient. See Science.]

Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise;


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=omniscient

om·nis·cient ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) Pronunciation Key (
obreve.gif
m-n
ibreve.gif
sh
prime.gif
schwa.gif
nt)
adj.

Having total knowledge; knowing everything: an omniscient deity; the omniscient narrator.
 
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