Death Before Sin

[Asimov]

I just have something I need to try and clarify. God created the Garden of Eden, he made things grow there that were good to eat, and put Adam in there whom he formed. God also planted two trees in the Garden, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, God found out and Adam and Eve were cursed.

Now, YEC's assume that there was no death before the fall. They back this up by quoting Scripture that seem to suggest that physical death in ALL things did not happen until Adam sinned. Logically, one would assume that YEC's believe Adam was meant to live in the Garden forever. If I am wrong about this, then please correct me.

Now, where I am fuzzy, is where God Himself says in Genesis 3:22-24:

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

God sent Adam from the Garden of Eden, because he didn't want Adam to have eternal life. If Adam was meant to live forever, then why was God saying that Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever? If death indeed did not exist until Sin, and Adam was meant to live forever, then why was there a Tree of Life?

If he wasn't meant to live forever, the surely he, and other creatures had to die. To not live forever means to die.

Please clarify this for me YEC's...

 

[JesusPosse]

Good Question.But remember Adam and eve did not eat of the Tree of Life,They ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.In Genesis 3 :19 It explains:

"In the Sweet of thy face thou shalt eat bread,till thou returns unto the ground,for out of it wast thou taken,for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return"

Now this can be taken many ways,but in many cases it literally states that man would die.This was in the curse against Adam.You notice they didn't want eternal Life,they wanted knowledge,to Be like God.

 

[Mistermystery]

Good Question.But remember Adam and eve did not eat of the Tree of Life,They ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.In Genesis 3 :19 It explains:

"In the Sweet of thy face thou shalt eat bread,till thou returns unto the ground,for out of it wast thou taken,for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return"

Now this can be taken many ways,but in many cases it literally states that man would die.This was in the curse against Adam.You notice they didn't want eternal Life,they wanted knowledge,to Be like God.

Literary it would mean that he would die on the spot. Why didn't that happen?

 

[JesusPosse]

Because of Gods lovefor Him.Imagine,you built a car.All by yourself you built it by hand,it breaks down once,would you destroy it there?No,you would give it another Chance and try to fix it.From the Beginning of Time God had a plan,His son would go to Earth in the form of a Human and take away the sins of the World.God loves people more then almost everything,he was willing to givehis son to die for them.Would you Kill your most loved Creation because of one mistake?If there was no hope,if we had no hope for redemption he would have killed us there.

 

[Brahe]

Because of Gods lovefor Him.Imagine,you built a car.All by yourself you built it by hand,it breaks down once,would you destroy it there?

So was the threat of death just an empty threat, or did god change his mind?

No,you would give it another Chance and try to fix it.From the Beginning of Time God had a plan,His son would go to Earth in the form of a Human and take away the sins of the World.

Wait a second, if god had this PlAn fRom the BeginNinG of timE, then your entire story falls to pieces. If god intended for Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, then why did he first forbid them from doing so? Wait, that makes even less sense. Why would god intentionally create a plan for fixing his mistake that he hadn't even made? Why not simply not make the mistake in the first place? And if, for some bizarre reason, god wanted to send his son, then why bother with the whole Garden of Eden? Why not simply set humans out on the planet?

And your analogy doesn't make any sense. If I make a car and it breaks down, it's not the car's fault, it's my own. If I intentionally made a car to break down just so I could have the dubious pleasure of fixing it, then there's no question of where culpability lies. And god didn't fix anything--he just tore down the Garden of Eden and set the organisms there loose. And if god's son was supposed to take away the sins of the world, then why didn't that ever happen? Are you proposing some sort of insane god who sabotages his own efforts?

 

[Asimov]

Good Question.But remember Adam and eve did not eat of the Tree of Life,They ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.In Genesis 3 :19 It explains:

I'm aware of that!! Therefore they didn't gain eternal life, and were never intended to live forever. Therefore your death before sin idea, is false!

"In the Sweet of thy face thou shalt eat bread,till thou returns unto the ground,for out of it wast thou taken,for dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return"

Now this can be taken many ways,but in many cases it literally states that man would die.This was in the curse against Adam.You notice they didn't want eternal Life,they wanted knowledge,to Be like God.

[/quote]
Noooo, he's saying you're going to work until you die. Previously, in the Garden, God said for in the DAY that you eat the fruit, you will die. This did not happen.

 

[Asimov]

Because of Gods lovefor Him.

Then the entire threat wasn't true! Why would God say something, and not have it come true. That's a lie!

Imagine,you built a car.All by yourself you built it by hand,it breaks down once,would you destroy it there?No,you would give it another Chance and try to fix it.

A car is like a mindless robot, something which you SAY humans are not.

From the Beginning of Time God had a plan,His son would go to Earth in the form of a Human and take away the sins of the World.God loves people more then almost everything,he was willing to givehis son to die for them.Would you Kill your most loved Creation because of one mistake?If there was no hope,if we had no hope for redemption he would have killed us there.

Then Adam eating the fruit was all a set up, and therefore, not our fault. If God has a plan, and God knows everything, then we are destined to either go to heaven or go to hell, and there's nothing we can do about it.

 

[Vance]

The death spoken of was spiritual death, which is separation from the full communion with God. In the day they ate, they were banished from God's immediate presence and were, from that time forward, in need of redemption. If the death referred to meant physical death, there are two major problems. The first you already pointed out. They did not die that very day (and all the work-arounds are just that).

The second problem is much more serious. God's gift of redemption was His Son, Jesus. This sacrifice was meant to redeem the Fall, basically provide atonement for that sin, as if it never happened (for those that accept this gift). Now, if the loss suffered as a result of the Fall was physical death, then Jesus' sacrifice didn't work, since we still die, those who accept the gift as well as those who don't. In fact, this whole idea of physical death won't work at all since we ALL will die and we ALL will have eternal life. The ONLY difference is where that eternal life will be spent: in communion with God or out of communion with God.

So, the death referred to had to be spiritual death only. The sacrifice of Jesus overcomes this spiritual death (which it doesn't do for physical death), and those who are redeemed are now (and forever) in communion with God (spiritually alive).

 

[Asimov]

The death spoken of was spiritual death, which is separation from the full communion with God. In the day they ate, they were banished from God's immediate presence and were, from that time forward, in need of redemption. If the death referred to meant physical death, there are two major problems. The first you already pointed out. They did not die that very day (and all the work-arounds are just that).

The second problem is much more serious. God's gift of redemption was His Son, Jesus. This sacrifice was meant to redeem the Fall, basically provide atonement for that sin, as if it never happened (for those that accept this gift). Now, if the loss suffered as a result of the Fall was physical death, then Jesus' sacrifice didn't work, since we still die, those who accept the gift as well as those who don't. In fact, this whole idea of physical death won't work at all since we ALL will die and we ALL will have eternal life. The ONLY difference is where that eternal life will be spent: in communion with God or out of communion with God.

So, the death referred to had to be spiritual death only. The sacrifice of Jesus overcomes this spiritual death (which it doesn't do for physical death), and those who are redeemed are now (and forever) in communion with God (spiritually alive).

Thanks Vance, I'm aware that a lot of Christians, such as yourself and Lucaspa, accept the Spiritual Death thing. But my OP was directed to specifically Creationists who believe that it was physical death.

 

[Mistermystery]

Wow I love it when creationists accuse God of deliberatly failing. A++ would read again.

 

[Asimov]

Wow I love it when creationists accuse God of deliberatly failing. A++ would read again.

So what....no creationists want to attempt to explain this obvious discrepancy to their little belief?????

 

[kenneth558]

So what....no creationists want to attempt to explain this obvious discrepancy to their little belief?????

I am a YECist, so you'd like to see what I think, Asimov.

In Jonah, God's message to the Ninevites was that they would be destroyed in three days. Jonah got mad because God didn't do it. Call God a liar, if you wish - He calls you one. And He calls me one. But He can change His mind if He chooses to, and that's just the way it it.

Now I can't find in my Bible where God says explicitely that Adam really did die the day he ate. If such a statement existed, we could learn more of what God meant. But what I do know is that when Jesus Christ walked this earth, He spoke of life and death in terms that we mortals do not. He called death "sleep" for the believer. He told certain of the religious leaders that they had no life in them (John 6:53). He said the spirit quickeneth (or makes alive) and the flesh profits nothing. We allow ourselves the freedom to speak metaphorically, parabolically, and symbolically; shouldn't we allow God that freedom also? But you would say to me "Ahah! The creation story in Genesis could be metaphorical, too!" Yes, it could be, but God has gone to some length to lead us to believe otherwise in that particular case. At any rate, when He speaks of life and death, He seems to have a different perspective on those subjects than we have. I'm sure we'll change our perspective as well when we leave this mortal life....

But you asked about this "no death before the Fall" idea. God simply says that sin entered the world by one man, and death followed as a result. It need be no more complicated than God kept man from living forever by keeping them away from the tree of life. As the human body was kept away from this miraculous food, it began to age and deteriorate. Also, this tree was only found inside the garden of Eden. We have no description of what the earth was like outside the garden before the Fall. There could have been all manner of death and disease outside the garden, as far as I read God's word.

And you seem to be challenging why God did things the way He did. I'm just guessing, but could it be as a way of sorting between the proud and the humble? Are you too proud to accept the manner that He chooses to work with us?

 

[simguy83]

Noooo, he's saying you're going to work until you die. Previously, in the Garden, God said for in the DAY that you eat the fruit, you will die. This did not happen.

Yes it did.

Remember, to The Lord one day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years is as a day. Therefore as Adam live until he was 950, he actually died later that afternoon.

Wow, that wasn't hard to explain as I thought it would be!

 

[Asimov]

I am a YECist, so you'd like to see what I think, Asimov.

In Jonah, God's message to the Ninevites was that they would be destroyed in three days. Jonah got mad because God didn't do it. Call God a liar, if you wish - He calls you one. And He calls me one. But He can change His mind if He chooses to, and that's just the way it it.

Your Ninevite analogy is irrelevant, because God explained why he did not destroy them. Furthermore, the Ninevites realised they were evil, and changed their ways. So this does not apply.

Now I can't find in my Bible where God says explicitely that Adam really did die the day he ate.

Because he didn't...

If such a statement existed, we could learn more of what God meant. But what I do know is that when Jesus Christ walked this earth, He spoke of life and death in terms that we mortals do not. He called death "sleep" for the believer. He told certain of the religious leaders that they had no life in them (John 6:53). He said the spirit quickeneth (or makes alive) and the flesh profits nothing. We allow ourselves the freedom to speak metaphorically, parabolically, and symbolically; shouldn't we allow God that freedom also? But you would say to me "Ahah! The creation story in Genesis could be metaphorical, too!" Yes, it could be, but God has gone to some length to lead us to believe otherwise in that particular case. At any rate, when He speaks of life and death, He seems to have a different perspective on those subjects than we have.

We do know what he meant by death. It was a spiritual death. I'm talking about YEC's who take a literal interpretation to the whole bible. You don't seem to take that route, so why are you posting? Genesis fits better with reality and how the Universe works if it's interpreted metaphorically.

I'm sure we'll change our perspective as well when we leave this mortal life....

No...cuz you'll be dead.

But you asked about this "no death before the Fall" idea. God simply says that sin entered the world by one man, and death followed as a result. It need be no more complicated than God kept man from living forever by keeping them away from the tree of life. As the human body was kept away from this miraculous food, it began to age and deteriorate. Also, this tree was only found inside the garden of Eden. We have no description of what the earth was like outside the garden before the Fall. There could have been all manner of death and disease outside the garden, as far as I read God's word.

First, do not speculate on what could be, we are discussing the Bible, and if it does not say it in the Bible, then you cannot speculate what might be. God kept man from living forever...therefore Adam wasn't immortal before he sinned. That's what I'm saying.

The purpose of the Tree of Life was to give eternal life to whoever eats it. It does not say Adam ate from that tree. It does say God did not want Adam eating from that tree.

And you seem to be challenging why God did things the way He did. I'm just guessing, but could it be as a way of sorting between the proud and the humble? Are you too proud to accept the manner that He chooses to work with us?

I hate these questions, because they have nothing to do with what I"m saying. If you actually read my OP, you would realise that I'm not challenging God, I'm challenging those who interpret the Bible literally.

 

[Asimov]

Yes it did.

Remember, to The Lord one day is as a 1000 years and a 1000 years is as a day. Therefore as Adam live until he was 950, he actually died later that afternoon.

Wow, that wasn't hard to explain as I thought it would be!

Once again you are literally interpreting that to mean exactly what it says. It's simply saying that God is timeless. A 1000 years is a day, and a day is a 1000 years....a second is also a 1000 years to God, and 1000 years is a second. It's metaphorical for eternal.

Going by your logic, Adam was also 346,750,000 years old to God as well.

 

[simguy83]

Yes, God is outside of time, but I still believe and stand by what I said. Obviously you are welcome to disagree, I just believe that God meant a physical death as opposed to a spiritual death.

 

[Asimov]

Yes, God is outside of time, but I still believe and stand by what I said.

So then you stand by and believe what I said as well, because it's the same thing:

Once again you are literally interpreting that to mean exactly what it says. It's simply saying that God is timeless. A 1000 years is a day, and a day is a 1000 years....a second is also a 1000 years to God, and 1000 years is a second. It's metaphorical for eternal.

Going by your logic, Adam was also 346,750,000 years old to God as well.

Obviously you are welcome to disagree, I just believe that God meant a physical death as opposed to a spiritual death.

Then why are you posting???? Clearly you don't believe he meant physical death, so I don't understand why you are posting.

 

[LightBearer]

I just have something I need to try and clarify. God created the Garden of Eden, he made things grow there that were good to eat, and put Adam in there whom he formed. God also planted two trees in the Garden, the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life. Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, God found out and Adam and Eve were cursed.

Now, YEC's assume that there was no death before the fall. They back this up by quoting Scripture that seem to suggest that physical death in ALL things did not happen until Adam sinned. Logically, one would assume that YEC's believe Adam was meant to live in the Garden forever. If I am wrong about this, then please correct me.

Now, where I am fuzzy, is where God Himself says in Genesis 3:22-24:

God sent Adam from the Garden of Eden, because he didn't want Adam to have eternal life. If Adam was meant to live forever, then why was God saying that Adam had to eat from the Tree of Life to live forever? If death indeed did not exist until Sin, and Adam was meant to live forever, then why was there a Tree of Life?

If he wasn't meant to live forever, the surely he, and other creatures had to die. To not live forever means to die.

Please clarify this for me YEC's...

Death did exist in Eden.



Only Man was given the prospect of living forever.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 Everything he has made pretty in its time. Even time indefinite he has put in their heart, that mankind may never find out the work that the [true] God has made from the start to the finish.

​

Animals died as a natural process.

2 Peter 2:12 But these [men], like unreasoning animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed, . . .

​

Peter refers here to wicked men who will end up destroyed as is natural for animals. Thus when God told Adam that if he disobeyed and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad that he would "positvely die" he knew what God meant by die, as no doubt he would have experienced death in the animals and other life forms.



Only if and when Adam had passed the test of obedeince by not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, thus proving faithful, would he have been allowed to eat of the tree of life, symbolising God's finnally granting upon him the gift of everlasting life.

 

[Asimov]

Death did exist in Eden.





Only Man was given the prospect of living forever.

The prospect, that doesn't mean Adam was immortal before he sinned, which is what we're discussing.

​

Animals died as a natural process.

I know that...I'm not saying they didn't.

Peter refers here to wicked men who will end up destroyed as is natural for animals. Thus when God told Adam that if he disobeyed and ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad that he would "positvely die" he knew what God meant by die, as no doubt he would have experienced death in the animals and other life forms.

Yes, but God said that in the day he eats the fruit, he will surely die. Which did not happen. This is not what is being discussed though. We are talking about death before sin.

Only if and when Adam had passed the test of obedeince by not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, thus proving faithful, would he have been allowed to eat of the tree of life, symbolising God's finnally granting upon him the gift of everlasting life.

That doesn't make sense, God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He is the Creator of everything. He created Adam to not pass his test.

 

[Asimov]

Am I not getting something across here? This discussion is aimed at Creationists who believe that things did not die before the fall. That Adam was born immortal.