Dealing with some difficult scriptures

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In Biblical times, people became slaves for a variety of reasons. Some by means of national conquest. Others because of debt, and some even by choice. Slavery as we knew it in the United States, was based on race.

The Bible does not condone it outright. It was lawful in many societies. In various places we are given instruction on how to behave within the culture of the day. This is especially true with issues regarding women and slavery.

Jesus paid for the price for our freedom and it is a spiritual liberty that is independent of outward circumstances. Paul was God's "freeman" in spite of his bonds.

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:1

Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather. For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant. Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men. Brethren, let every man, wherein he is called, therein abide with God.
1 Cor 7:21-24

God has not appointed certain peoples to be beneath any other. He judges without partiality.
You can serve God as His "freeman" as a slave or vice versa. He allows this to happen and there are still many slaves in the world today. Thank God for our freedom! We cannot take our liberty for granted.

Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.
1 Tim 6:1-2

This speaks of our heart condition toward those we work for. I believe this speaks specifically of slaves, but the same holds true for our "bosses" at work.


Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.
Col 4:1

This is their instruction. Though specifically addressing slave "masters", it also applies to those we serve (willingly).


Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
Col 3:22-25

This is more like the slavery the Africans endured (even by their own people).

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
Ex 21:16

I don't believe God condones slavery, neither is it going on in Heaven. We're to pray for His kingdom and will to be done on earth as it is in Heaven, and that means freedom. He works within the world's systems and allows at various times for people to endure suffering and affliction (Joseph). He works within the system of this fallen world. His ultimate goal is for everyone to choose Him and to walk in freedom.

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.
Gen 50:20

We can't figure God out, but we can give Him the benefit of the doubt for knowing what "good" really is.

Hmmm. How do you know for certain that there is "no slavery going on in heaven"? You've never been there, have you? It is possible that there is slavery in heaven - and I don't mean just to God.

The rest I can't argue with. I just cannot say that in any context that slavery is good, because it's not.

This was just one more doubt in my mind about the goodness of God.
 
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Alive_Again

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God is good!

Our "good" God wants His children to do "good" works.

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power
2 Thess 1:11

Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.
3 John 1:11

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 3:8

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Tim 3:17

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 2:10

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luke 18:19

Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness.
Psalms 143:10

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:28

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 10:38

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Luke 2:14

How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
Isaiah 52:7

But do thou for me, O GOD the Lord, for thy name's sake: because thy mercy is good, deliver thou me.
Psalms 109:21

For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.
Psalms 84:11

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:
for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
James 1:13-15

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
James 1:16-17

No variableness!
 
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Alive_Again

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In Deuteronomy, God outright says that HE himself "I" will bring sickness, death, etc. on people. How do you explain this? Is that merely a poor english translation too?

It's not the "I", it's the "bring". It's the verbs, not the pronouns. He permits it because of the wickedness. He knows what will happen and allows it because of the disobedience and iniquity.

I'll refrain from speaking my mind or feelings. I find it odd that you would expect me to want to have anything to do with a being who brings evil on us. That's a little too religious for my tastes.

No need to overcompensate. Restraint is wise because we are to walk in the reverential fear of the Lord and to hate that which outside of this. God knows the reasons for your mindsets, but if you seek to be free of them, it will take His help getting this into your heart. If you express a hard heart, literally stoutheartedness, He will resist you. That's why we give heed to the Word so we don't oppose ourselves.

God will allow some things to break us too when we become hard hearted and continually stiffen our necks. Hard heartedness is one of the worst things you can have and we all have to guard against it.

God is wanting to bless you. Without faith it is impossible to please Him, so at some point you're going to have to give Him some faith. You're going to need a God encounter and that means you're going to have to humble yourself.

God's not at our beck and call. We humble ourselves and He gives grace to the lowly.

One of the worst things you can do is to oppose yourself. We all do it. I tell atheists that the Word says that they must approach God humbly in order to be able to "hear". If they are supposedly seeking if there really is one, it is in their best interests to be a true seeker and not expect God to answer to you and your objections. He can send answers to you, but a reverential fear is how you enter into receiving from God. You would do well to try adopt that mindset.
 
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Alive_Again

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What has been your Christian experience?

You say that you're not bitter anymore, but I think you have forgotten what it was to have real peace. How long has it been since you've experienced the satisfying love of God?

You mentioned suffering in your family. How did that come about? Were they believers? Did they receive the Lord? Do you somehow believe that the Lord is somehow responsible for their suffering?

Although we all work through problems, and life can be very trying, the normal Christian experience is to have peace and joy. You are not suppose to be carrying any burdens. Believer's are supposed to be experiencing times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord. When this is the fruit that have on the inside, you don't suspect God of wrongdoing. You have a thankful heart.

Isn't this what you want? Would you not rather trade your barbed comments about God and give Him the benefit of the doubt that He is good, and that His mercy endures forever?

Isn't the alternative, a judgment that He has not called any man too. It's a burden in life no one is meant to carry. It has no future and no hope.

If I were you (and I'm not). I would purpose it in my heart to forgive God for allowing my family to suffer. I would agree to give Him a chance and to believe that He can change my life. I would go receive prayer and renounce the judgments that I have made against Him. I would ask God to restore to me the joy of my salvation and begin to trust that He will reveal His goodness to me as He has others.

If need be, I would stay out of the Old Testament for a season and walk with Jesus.
 
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I'm making a decision to trust God and stop blaming him for all the garbage I'm dealing with.

I am also choosing to believe the devil is god of this world system and while God sustains life, he does not control or micro-manage it. It is only in this way - by assuming God is not in control of every little thing which happens - that I can accept that God is good and enemy is a liar.

I can accept that faith activates God's goodness into our lives and fear does the opposite, but with the devil instead. I'm willing to accept this.

Standard christian theology leaves me with more bitterness than answers, so I'm willing to once again accept these principles and begin living by them again.
 
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pk4yahweh

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I'm making a decision to trust God and stop blaming him for all the garbage I'm dealing with.

I am also choosing to believe the devil is god of this world system and while God sustains life, he does not control or micro-manage it. It is only in this way - by assuming God is not in control of every little thing which happens - that I can accept that God is good and enemy is a liar.

I can accept that faith activates God's goodness into our lives and fear does the opposite, but with the devil instead. I'm willing to accept this.

Standard christian theology leaves me with more bitterness than answers, so I'm willing to once again accept these principles and begin living by them again.

Best post you have written yet, my friend!:thumbsup:
 
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Jedi.Kep

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I'm making a decision to trust God and stop blaming him for all the garbage I'm dealing with.

Praise God. The garbage isn't God's fault anyway. Good for you!

I am also choosing to believe the devil is god of this world system and while God sustains life, he does not control or micro-manage it. It is only in this way - by assuming God is not in control of every little thing which happens - that I can accept that God is good and enemy is a liar.

Double Praise God! The theology of "God is in control" has destroyed more believers faith than any other. I could almost spit when I hear someone blab "God is in control" when referencing some horrible tragedy. I'd rather slap my mother than listen to that crap. That goes right there beside someone saying at a funeral, "God must have needed another angel." Oh dear Lord, I really want to slap them when they spread that trash! LOL.

I can accept that faith activates God's goodness into our lives and fear does the opposite, but with the devil instead. I'm willing to accept this.

Glad to hear you are making progress!

Standard christian theology leaves me with more bitterness than answers, so I'm willing to once again accept these principles and begin living by them again.

Jesus Christ is the center of absolutely everything. Without Him guiding your doctrine and standards theology you will shipwreck your faith. Simply put, if Jesus did it then, he's doing it today. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever! Hallelujah.
 
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The theology of "God is in control" has destroyed more believers faith than any other. I could almost spit when I hear someone blab "God is in control" when referencing some horrible tragedy. I'd rather slap my mother than listen to that crap. That goes right there beside someone saying at a funeral, "God must have needed another angel." Oh dear Lord, I really want to slap them when they spread that trash! LOL.

Definitely, and it threatened to destroy mine as well.

If God is in control, he's not doing a very good job running this world. Or, he's not as good as some people say he is (as I said before). This is the paradox people paint themselves into, when they try to insist God is both good and completely in control. Because it's clear in our world, that people suffer and often times, through no fault of their own. I'd rather say God is entirely good, but not always in control, than to say he is in control, but not good.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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If God is in control, he's not doing a very good job running this world.
Nah. I supervise others. I delegate work to them. I am in control.

But they do the work. And sometimes they don't do the best work. While I am in control (I could replace them), I have delegated the responsibility to them and they are responsible to do the work -- I accept the fact that I delegated it and I will take their work; I will also work with them to make them better. It may take a while.

Now, God is higher and greater than I will ever be. And He is in control. He has His reasons for not stepping in and pushing us all aside and usurping that control. No, He gave us dominion and we fell. Now He is teaching us through redemption and sanctification how to do it better.

You might not like the results, but you ain't God. He....is in control.
 
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Nah. I supervise others. I delegate work to them. I am in control.

But they do the work. And sometimes they don't do the best work. While I am in control (I could replace them), I have delegated the responsibility to them and they are responsible to do the work -- I accept the fact that I delegated it and I will take their work; I will also work with them to make them better. It may take a while.

Now, God is higher and greater than I will ever be. And He is in control. He has His reasons for not stepping in and pushing us all aside and usurping that control. No, He gave us dominion and we fell. Now He is teaching us through redemption and sanctification how to do it better.

You might not like the results, but you ain't God. He....is in control.

Supervising others does not mean you are in control (i.e. controlling them). It means you call the shots, but others have the power (i.e. control) to disobey you. If God was absolutely sovereign like you religious types like to claim, then he would be responsible for all, including rebellion against him. How would that work? Perchance, are you a Calvinist? That would explain a lot.

To say "God is in control" as Joel Osteen purports (and you do as well) is to say God is responsible for every murder, rape, child molestation and act of evil and suffering. And if that is so, I was right initially, when I said God is evil and not worthy of worship. You can't have it both ways.

But I've read some of your other theology and I can see I would never see eye-to-eye with you anyway. Blaming God for the curse, I don't think so.

Or perhaps I should go back to blaming God for all the misery I have suffered, since "he is in control". Well, if he did this to me, then I want nothing to do with him.
 
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Jedi.Kep

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Supervising others does not mean you are in control (i.e. controlling them). It means you call the shots, but others have the power (i.e. control) to disobey you. If God was absolutely sovereign like you religious types like to claim, then he would be responsible for all, including rebellion against him. How would that work? Perchance, are you a Calvinist? That would explain a lot.

To say "God is in control" as Joel Osteen purports (and you do as well) is to say God is responsible for every murder, rape, child molestation and act of evil and suffering. And if that is so, I was right initially, when I said God is evil and not worthy of worship. You can't have it both ways.

But I've read some of your other theology and I can see I would never see eye-to-eye with you anyway. Blaming God for the curse, I don't think so.

Or perhaps I should go back to blaming God for all the misery I have suffered, since "he is in control". Well, if he did this to me, then I want nothing to do with him.

I heard a preacher say it like this, "God is in control... of what you give Him control over." I have no problem with a fellow believer trusting God with their lives and giving God control then saying "God is in control." It is when a believer has their house burn down or their baby die and either they or some other Christian comes along and says "God is in control" that there is a serious theological problem. When they say that, they imply that God DID the evil thing. I ALWAYS clarify or ask for them to clarify. I drive people around me crazy, but it has to be done.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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Supervising others does not mean you are in control (i.e. controlling them). It means you call the shots, but others have the power (i.e. control) to disobey you. If God was absolutely sovereign like you religious types like to claim, then he would be responsible for all, including rebellion against him. How would that work? Perchance, are you a Calvinist? That would explain a lot.
I love it. Me?? Calvinist?? You must be joking, right?
To quote my favorite Calvinist: Bwahahahahahaha!!!

I'm about as far from Calvinism as one can get. I debate them regularly.

To say "God is in control" as Joel Osteen purports (and you do as well) is to say God is responsible for every murder, rape, child molestation and act of evil and suffering.
Not true. It means that He can do whatever He wants even to the point of overriding man who He has given dominion to.

And if that is so, I was right initially,
It isn't and you're not.

...when I said God is evil and not worthy of worship. You can't have it both ways.
See.

But I've read some of your other theology and I can see I would never see eye-to-eye with you anyway. Blaming God for the curse, I don't think so.
What do you refer to, "blaming God for the curse"?

Or perhaps I should go back to blaming God for all the misery I have suffered, since "he is in control". Well, if he did this to me, then I want nothing to do with him.
So since you did this by embracing the curse does it mean you want nothing to do with yourself? Hmmm?

God is in control. This does not mean that He makes each thing happen. For God delegated responsibility to man, gave him dominion over this earth. I'll even agree if you want to say that God gave control to man to deal with this world. But this type of control is a delegated control -- it does not take away the ultimate control that God has in taking back the dominion if He should wish. Ahh, but scripturally He does not wish: He gave dominion to man.

To be clear: God didn't "do" anything "to" you. He wants only good and for you to prosper in all you do.
 
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ABlessedAnomaly

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When they say [God is in control], they imply that God DID the evil thing.
This is NOT what control means. Control does not mean that the one in control does all the actions. It simply means that they have control over all whereby the actions come through.

We choose blessing or the curse. God does not make us choose one or the other. It is our free will choice ONLY BECAUSE God, who is in control, gave us the choice. He could, if He wills, take that choice away. Our "control" could not stop Him. But through His promise He wills to give us free choice, and so He willfully will not change this.
 
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Jedi.Kep

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This is NOT what control means. Control does not mean that the one in control does all the actions. It simply means that they have control over all whereby the actions come through.

We choose blessing or the curse. God does not make us choose one or the other. It is our free will choice ONLY BECAUSE God, who is in control, gave us the choice. He could, if He wills, take that choice away. Our "control" could not stop Him. But through His promise He wills to give us free choice, and so He willfully will not change this.

Well, maybe people think differently where you live. Around here in Presbyterian country, everyone takes "God is in control" to mean that God micromanages everything you do according to some divine purpose. Without fail, many have used the phrase as I described above for some sick, perverted form of comfort after a horrible loss. It's not Scriptural, nor does it properly spread the light of Christ. It's like throwing a web blanket over the face of someone trying to catch their breath, and it's caused many around here to lose their faith completely in bitter anger against the True and Loving God. I ask that you keep that in mind when you use the phrase around others is all because honestly you are the first one I've seen try to make it mean something different (which I'm having a hard time twisting my brain to comprehend your meaning of it. I am trying.).
 
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I knew there was fatih there...
The heart is warmed!

I'm making a decision to trust God and stop blaming him for all the garbage I'm dealing with.

I am also choosing to believe the devil is god of this world system and while God sustains life, he does not control or micro-manage it. It is only in this way - by assuming God is not in control of every little thing which happens - that I can accept that God is good and enemy is a liar.

I can accept that faith activates God's goodness into our lives and fear does the opposite, but with the devil instead. I'm willing to accept this.

Standard christian theology leaves me with more bitterness than answers, so I'm willing to once again accept these principles and begin living by them again.
 
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pk4yahweh

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I once heard a great description of what is meant by "God is in control"...

The Mechanized Age began with the invention of the first machine (the pendulum) around the 14th Century. Because our Modern Age is completely engrossed in machinery - when we think of God being "in control" - we picture him standing over a machine, moving dials and levers, pushing buttons - in essence "controlling" the machine (or in our case - the world).

But - for all of time PRIOR to the last 600 years or so there were no such contraptions as machines. So for anyone living before that time - when they pictured God being "in control" they instead saw Him as a King controlling his kingdom. While the King certainly has awareness of everything that happens in his kingdom - and could override it at any moment - he definitely wasn't running around and physically "controlling" every one of his subjects.

Furthermore - when the machine breaks it is typically the fault of the machines Creator/Operator - but when a subject fails it isn't seen as the King's fault but their own.

Also very interesting that Jesus repeatedly uses the "kingdom" model and language.

Personally - I tend to view God through the time-tested earlier imagery and not the "relatively new" modern imagery.
 
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irenemcg

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First off, I like what the word of faith teaches. It makes sense to me, in some ways. But the bible itself has some problem scriptures which seem to completely undermine that God is all loving or never brings evil upon us.

We've already addressed the book of Job.

We also have God himself telling us in Isaiah 45:7 that HE brings evil upon us.

God in Deuteronomy 32:39 tells us that he is the one who kills and makes alive. (Not the devil. "No other god beside me," he says.)

Exodus 4:11 tells us that God (not Satan) brings evil upon us, when he makes an individual mute, deaf or blind.

Some say, look to Jesus. But I am reminded of the story in both Matthew 15:21-28 and Mark 7:24-30, where Jesus insulted the canaanite woman and called her a "dog". That hardly seems loving and sounds, in fact, very mean and cruel, given her situation. Does Jesus also think I too am nothing but a "dog" because I am not a jew?

Jesus also makes a very disturbing remark at the end of one of his parables in Luke 19:27. He tells of a king, himself, who was rejected by his people. So when he comes back, at the end once his reign is established, he says, "Bring those who did not want me as their king and slay them before me!" That sounds very vengeful, especially in light of of him telling his disciples to "love your enemies" and "not to repay evil for evil". How do you reconcile these statements with the supposedly loving image of Jesus we see taught in most christian circles?

Lastly, this is more of an aside, but I'll ask anyway; but how do you deal with the anti-marriage, anti-family scriptures in the bible? The new testament says marriage is a lesser state than being single and both Paul and Jesus both recommend remaining unmarried for Christianity's sake. So my question is, why do Christians ignore this and get married anyway, especially when both Jesus in Matthew 19 and Paul in 1 Corinthians 7 advocate eternal celibacy over matrimony? Can someone properly explain these things to me?

I am very interested in word of faith doctrine, as I said already, but unless I get these issues resolved, I don't see how I could accept this doctrine when it contradicts so many scriptures. Help please! I'm not here with any agenda except to find out how to honestly deal with these bad scriptures in light of the idea that God is good, loving, kind, merciful and never kills or brings evil upon anyone.

Thanks,

simply christian.

We are under the new covenant, not the old , firstly if there had been no sin there would be no sickness or disease. God by nature is a healer and does not cause sickness.

No sin- no sickness

Exo_15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Regarding verses like Exodus 4:11 God created us but the deaf are deaf , blind are blind not because God is bad but because of sin.

Diseases came on the Egyptians because of sin, but God's favour was with the Israelites because amongst them there was faith. And God declared that He was their healer.


I'll move on to the Canaanite woman- Jesus was not telling her he thought of her as a dog, no way can't you see that Jesus knew what was on her mind and how she would press through - so he quoted what was the general concensus of Jewish perception when it came to people of her race, after all od is the Father of all nations. He knew this lady would press through in faith.

Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Look at the dialogue here the Lord Jesus wanted to see her press through in faith - and he healed her daughter.

1Co 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.
1Co 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

Celibacy is not possible for all and there are instances where the enforced celibacy has caused problems when an office in a church commands it.

I am married, met my husband at Bible College 33 yrs ago, we would like to think that we compliment one another in our ministry. God bless you and I hope it helps you to understand more.
 
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now faith

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Well, maybe people think differently where you live. Around here in Presbyterian country, everyone takes "God is in control" to mean that God micromanages everything you do according to some divine purpose. Without fail, many have used the phrase as I described above for some sick, perverted form of comfort after a horrible loss. It's not Scriptural, nor does it properly spread the light of Christ. It's like throwing a web blanket over the face of someone trying to catch their breath, and it's caused many around here to lose their faith completely in bitter anger against the True and Loving God. I ask that you keep that in mind when you use the phrase around others is all because honestly you are the first one I've seen try to make it mean something different (which I'm having a hard time twisting my brain to comprehend your meaning of it. I am trying.).

My understanding of God is in control,means through our own choices we make our own decisions.
If we are in Christ God through his grace will keep us from destruction by our own means.
We oftentimes make our lives harder to the point of crying out to God,by that time we are not in faith or provision.
We fall so hard it takes a miracle to save us.
If we would walk in faith and be led by the Holy Spirit and keep ourselves from fleshly minds,our lives would be filled with. Prosperity.
Never the less God will deliver us despite ourselves,it just takes a lot of suffering for nothing.
Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
 
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Criada

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