Dealing with Hell

preston08 · Dec 19, 2003

Holyjoe said:
nothing you do as in deeds or works will get you to heaven...and its not what you do that gets you to hell either...

I hope you are not trying to contradict my statement with that.

Do not put words in my mouth. I said I am going to try my hardest to get to heaven. Not that I am going to be faithless and rely on good deeds to get to heaven.

Just clearing things up

G4m · Dec 19, 2003

preston08 said:
When and where did I say God ended?

I said 'end up with'.

You didn't, I'm asking you. When does God end?

preston08 · Dec 19, 2003

ahah ohhh...

thats the problem with typing, you can't really see what the person means, whether they are being sarcastic, or happy, or mad.

God does not end. He is never-ending and we will never be bored of him because he will always have something new for us.

G4m · Dec 19, 2003

preston08 said:
ahah ohhh...

thats the problem with typing, you can't really see what the person means, whether they are being sarcastic, or happy, or mad.

God does not end. He is never-ending and we will never be bored of him because he will always have something new for us.

OK, so what is God?

preston08 · Dec 19, 2003

God is the Holy Spirit?

My knowledge is limited for now.

Can you answer your own question? - "What is God"?

G4m · Dec 20, 2003

j

preston08 said:
God is the Holy Spirit?

My knowledge is limited for now.

Can you answer your own question? - "What is God"?

1 John 4
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

preston08 · Dec 20, 2003

G4m said:
j
1 John 4
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Thanks.

G4m · Dec 20, 2003

preston08 said:
Thanks.

OK, so you see if hell exists forever, God must end?

preston08 · Dec 21, 2003

G4m said:
OK, so you see if hell exists forever, God must end?

I do not see how that makes any sense. Hell exists forever because God allows it.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say... 'God must end?' I am not sure who you are asking that of.

G4m · Dec 21, 2003

preston08 said:
I do not see how that makes any sense. Hell exists forever because God allows it.

I don't really understand what you are trying to say... 'God must end?' I am not sure who you are asking that of.

If people are separated from God forever. Is God loving them? How can God literally be love, when He does not love all?

humble_soul · Dec 21, 2003

G4m - Are you saying that in order for God to be God, he has to love all people and all things equally? It is true that God is love, but are you saying that if God does not love all people equally then he is not God? Are you saying that if God does not love all things equally then he is not God?

Does God love sin? I don't think anyone would argue that!

Does God love all people? No. Malchi 1:3 "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated."

The Bible says that God is love, yet it also says that God does not love all equally.

G4m · Dec 21, 2003

humble_soul said:
G4m - Are you saying that in order for God to be God, he has to love all people and all things equally? It is true that God is love, but are you saying that if God does not love all people equally then he is not God? Are you saying that if God does not love all things equally then he is not God?

Actually John said it:

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1 John 4
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

humble_soul said:
Does God love sin? I don't think anyone would argue that!

Does God love all people? No. Malchi 1:3 "Yet Jacob I have loved; But Esau I have hated."

So God hates His own image?

Genesis 1
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Honestly it doesn't take much to understand Malachi 1:3. The countless verses on God's unconditional love, enduring forever, for all men should help. In order for Malachi 1:3 to mean what you want it to, I think God would have to have some darkness in Him:

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

humble_soul said:
The Bible says that God is love, yet it also says that God does not love all equally.

So God is a God of conditional love? Sounds like man's love...which would sound like an idol...Why would anyone want to serve such a God???

humble_soul · Dec 21, 2003

G4m - How can "Esau I have hated" mean anything other than God hated Esau?

Please read what I am about to type. I do not disagree with any of the scripture that you have quoted.

I dispute that people today are the image of God exactly like Adam was the image of God. People are still created in God's image, except they have corrupted sin natures that predispose them to the wrath of God. Unless God changes a person's heart, then that person will go to hell.

God's love IS conditional on one thing! It is conditional on God himself giving that love. He doesn't give his love equally to all people. I am saying that God loves some more than others. He loves the elect more than the non-elect. If God loved all people the same, then he would not let some go to hell.

If I am guilty of idolizing anything, let it be the ultimate sovereignty of God in the salvation of man! To Him alone belongs ALL glory. May we praise His Holy Name! Forever, and ever and ever. AMEN!

G4m · Dec 21, 2003

humble_soul said:
G4m - How can "Esau I have hated" mean anything other than God hated Esau?

Please read what I am about to type. I do not disagree with any of the scripture that you have quoted.

I dispute that people today are the image of God exactly like Adam was the image of God. People are still created in God's image, except they have corrupted sin natures that predispose them to the wrath of God. Unless God changes a person's heart, then that person will go to hell.

God's love IS conditional on one thing! It is conditional on God himself giving that love. He doesn't give his love equally to all people. I am saying that God loves some more than others. He loves the elect more than the non-elect. If God loved all people the same, then he would not let some go to hell.

If I am guilty of idolizing anything, let it be the ultimate sovereignty of God in the salvation of man! To Him alone belongs ALL glory. May we praise His Holy Name! Forever, and ever and ever. AMEN!

I would think it hard for God to be love:

1 John 4
8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

if He didn't keep His own standard of love:

Matthew 5
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

John 15
13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Mark 12
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If God's love is conditional, we've got nothing to be saved from...because right now we'd being doing just what He is...

preston08 · Dec 21, 2003

g4m, I realise what you mean. But God also says that people choose to go to hell by rejecting Jesus (something like that)

I know you may say "who would EVER choose eternal punishment?" but by rejecting God's word, we are doing just that.

g4m, we will not understand God untill we die and go to heaven.

it says something in the Bible (paraphrasing) that you should 'be content in all situations' , I think that would apply to this. Be content with what you know, for we will not know the secrets of God untill we ascend into heaven.

preston08 · Dec 21, 2003

also g4m... my uncle told me this (he's an avid Christian)

he says that confusion is the tool of the enemy. I think this makes a lot of sense. God does not want confusion.

Satan would want you to obsess over things like this to discourage you. Don't let him suck you in to confusion.

Be content g4m!! (for now)

God bless!

G4m · Dec 21, 2003

preston08 said:
also g4m... my uncle told me this (he's an avid Christian)

he says that confusion is the tool of the enemy. I think this makes a lot of sense. God does not want confusion.

God is quite simple to understand. All the different denominations that conflict with each other in confusion are an obvious tool of the enemy then...

preston08 said:
Satan would want you to obsess over things like this to discourage you. Don't let him suck you in to confusion.

Be content g4m!! (for now)

Jesus wants us to care for others

Matthew 5
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Satan tells us to take care of ourselves...

In your OP you stated:

preston08 said:
This is the most troublesome thing about Christianity. I can handle not sinning, and living a more 'boring' life than a non-Christian... but Hell really bothers me.

If you equate 'not sinning' with 'boring', why did you become a christian? Was it the usual reason, to escape punishment?

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

preston08 said:
g4m, we will not understand God untill we die and go to heaven.

What? I understand God now...BTW, where does the bible say you're going to heaven (God's throne)? I doubt anyone could tell you how God will manifest His punishment, anger, wrath, and judgement. The answer is so simple and clear, you just have to ask God. Its the only way you'd believe it...

preston08 said:
God bless!

Thanks, you too mate...

preston08 · Dec 22, 2003

I equate not sinning with boring because it would be a lot funner for all of us if we could have sex all day and do drugs and not worry about anything.

You can't tell me that you wouldn't enjoy having sex all day....

of course you probably wouldn't enjoy it in the sense that you would know that you are sinning against God and you would feel terrible for it... but me as a 16 year old have a different point of view... these things are a bit harder to deal with when you are my age.

Hence, for me it is boring in the sense that I cannot go out and 'have fun' with my friends and do drugs, or look at porn.

It's a tough thing when in highschool (and out of highschool of course)

The reason I turned to Christianity was large in part to fear of being condemned to hell...who wouldn't be afraid of that. It's not a bad thing to be turned to Christianity by fear of hell, but to continue to be a Christian only because of that is not right.

But another big reason is because I sat down one day and just thoght all of this out in my head... I was being drawn to Christianity... I couldn't avoid it... I had to start reading the Bible... at the time I didn't know why, but I now know that God was doing this.

humble_soul · Dec 22, 2003

G4m-

I agree that God calls us to love everyone, but I do not agree that God loves everyone. The Bible says that God hated Esau. Please explain how this doesn't mean what is clearly says?

We are called to love everyone because we have no idea who IS and who is NOT a child of God. We don't know who the elect are, and therefore we should love everyone and not risk hating a brother. God however, knows the hearts of everyone. Because he is HOLY, he can NOT love the UNHOLY.

Let me make sure I understand. You are arguing that because God is love:

1) God loves everyone without exception
2) God loves everything without exception

If this is true, then it follows:

1) God loves Satan, all those that will perish in hell, all breakers of his law, those who delight in evil (they are included in the everyone category).

2) God loves sin, death, suffering of the righteous (these are included in the everything catagory).

Is this what you are arguing? Or can you admit that there are some things that God does not love?

Here is my point:

God is the only holy and perfect being. His perfection extends to include a perfect justice. He can only approve and love that which is perfect and holy, in short Himself! Nothing outside of God is worthy of God's love!

How then can God love some men if all are sinful? Simple. Jesus' shed blood. God Himself declares that some are to be saved. Even though they are not perfect, they are MADE perfect by the blood of Jesus!

This is a truth you seem to be missing. God alone is worthy of our praise. God alone has all the glory!

May God so bless us all.

G4m · Dec 22, 2003

humble_soul said:
G4m-

I agree that God calls us to love everyone, but I do not agree that God loves everyone. The Bible says that God hated Esau. Please explain how this doesn't mean what is clearly says?

So in reality (even because of ignorance) we are called to have a higher standard of love than God?

humble_soul said:
We are called to love everyone because we have no idea who IS and who is NOT a child of God. We don't know who the elect are, and therefore we should love everyone and not risk hating a brother. God however, knows the hearts of everyone. Because he is HOLY, he can NOT love the UNHOLY.

Just because God made some to be objects of wrath doesn't neglect from the end result. We are all loved and all precious to God and His plan.

Romans 9
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

He's just not going to make anyone suffer forever:

Isaiah 57
16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

yet the wicked will not rest:

Isaiah 57
20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.
21 There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

humble_soul said:
Let me make sure I understand. You are arguing that because God is love:

1) God loves everyone without exception
2) God loves everything without exception

If this is true, then it follows:

1) God loves Satan, all those that will perish in hell, all breakers of his law, those who delight in evil (they are included in the everyone category).

2) God loves sin, death, suffering of the righteous (these are included in the everything catagory).

Is this what you are arguing? Or can you admit that there are some things that God does not love?

1. Correct
2. These things are ultimately within God's plan for good, otherwise He'd destroy them all now. Or don't you think He can?

humble_soul said:
Here is my point:

God is the only holy and perfect being. His perfection extends to include a perfect justice. He can only approve and love that which is perfect and holy, in short Himself! Nothing outside of God is worthy of God's love!

God's idea of true justice:

Zechariah 7
8 And the word of the LORD came unto Zechariah, saying,
9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:
10 And oppress not the widow, nor the fatherless, the stranger, nor the poor; and let none of you imagine evil against his brother in your heart.

God is just:

Matthew 5
1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

In the end all the suffering is balanced out, otherwise its not just. Someone suffering forever is not just, is not fair, and is so plainly unbalanced...

humble_soul said:
How then can God love some men if all are sinful? Simple. Jesus' shed blood. God Himself declares that some are to be saved. Even though they are not perfect, they are MADE perfect by the blood of Jesus!

This is a truth you seem to be missing. God alone is worthy of our praise. God alone has all the glory!

May God so bless us all.

1 John 2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

But you will say even though God has the power, desire, will and resolve to save all men, He just won't...

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