Deacons & Pastors

[chriso]

I have a question- Should you be allowed to be Ordained as a Deacon in a Baptist church if you have been divorced before? The Bible makes the point of "husband of one wife". So is it Ok if you divorced your wife on biblical grounds. Also what about a Pastor?

 

[98cwitr]

Depends why you've been divorced.

 

[miamited]

Hi Chriso,

I know you probably won't want to hear this nor agree, but, I don't find any description of biblical divorce. The marriage vows that we still use today which are loosely established on Scripture is a promise between two people and God that they will remain together as one until death separates them and Jesus was clear that death releases the remaining spouse from the marriage vows.

Many make an issue that marital unfaithfulness releases as from that vow to God. I don't find that clearly supported by the Scriptures. Jesus says, regarding divorce, that it is only in the case of marital unfaithfulness that a divorce wouldn't make the unfaithful person an adulterer. The reason is fairly clear that the divorce doesn't make an unfaithful spouse an adulterer because they have already made themselves an adulterer. Jesus then clearly says that once divorced, both spouses then commit adultery when they have relations with another. Please understand that the vow made to God to have and to hold until death do part, is not broken by our unfaithfulness. That vow still stands and the Scriptures seem to make it quite clear that that vow is what condemns us before God.

It's not a matter that you are unhappy or disgusted with your spouse's behaviour and whether or not you can be free from that spouse with God's blessings. It is purely a matter that a vow was made to God and your half of that vow remains despite whatever actions your spouse may commit. The vow doesn't say, "I vow to stand beside you in all matters except unfaithfulness." The vow says that you will stand beside your chosen spouse in all matters, all matters. Friend, even if your spouse is unfaithful to you does not give you the right or blessing of God to be unfaithful to them or to God. We always seem to forget that the vow is made to God and our spouse, so an unfaithful spouse is not breaking the entire contract.

Now, let's look at why Paul says the pastor or deacon must be the husband of but one wife. Paul answers, because a man who feels led to lead God's people must be able to lead his own family. He must be able to oversee his own family, spouse and children. Does a man who breaks his vow to God and destroys his marriage fulfill that requirement?

Go with whatever you believe to be God's instructions in this matter, but for me, I'm convinced that divorce or having particularly rebellious or troubled children removes any man from consideration for these positions in God's 'church'. That man can still be an evangelist, a teacher, although I wouldn't want him teaching on issues of marriage, or any of the other dozen or so positions in a fellowship.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[chriso]

Thanks for your comments Ted. We have a few men in our church that seem to fit the qualifications of a Deacon but early in their life they went through a divorce. If they have repented of their sins and got their relationship right with the Lord is it OK for them to serve in the position of Deacon? I have always believed God is interested in where we are, and not our past if we truly have repented of our sins. Being a servant of God is such a blessing. Thanks for your input. God Bless You.

 

[DeaconDean]

deleted to...

 

[miamited]

Hi Chriso,

No, I don't believe a divorced man should ever seek to be a pastor or deacon. I know that this is a tough lesson. Just as the lesson of divorce. It's a hard teaching. However, Jesus was clear and I don't agree that he made any 'exception' when he said what the previous poster refers to:
That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery.

I find it fairly clear that all Jesus was saying was that in this singular case the husband was not causing the wife to be labeled a fornicator. I think as we read the following words:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

we find that there is quite a bit more to this issue than just the divorce issue.

Notice that Jesus then says that anyone who marries the divorced woman also commits adultery. Not a woman caught in fornication, necessarily, but any divorced woman. I also find that it is always good to look at everything the Scriptures say about an issue before making judgments as to what God is intending for us to understand.

So, let's look at Mark's gospel. He writes this account of Jesus' words regarding the subject when pressed by the Pharisees:
Some Phariseeshttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" "What did Moses command you?" he replied. They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away."http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 "It was because your hearts were hardhttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-5 that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.'http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-ahttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-b and the two will become one flesh.'http://www.christianforums.com/#fn-descriptionAnchor-chttp://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-7 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-9

What is being said here? Jesus is asked about divorce. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" They offer no cause but only ask whether or not divorce is lawful. Jesus asks them, "What did Moses command?" They reply that Moses said it was ok to divorce one's wife. Jesus again replies to them, "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law. But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Listen very carefully to his next words: "So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

As I said in the previous post. Marriage, although we tend to look at it in this manner, is not just a promise between a man and a woman. Jesus says that God has joined them together. When we divorce our spouse we are defying what God has joined togeher. He has blessed and He has caused to be one flesh in His sight. Then we come to the hardest message of all the Scriptures regarding divorce:
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her.http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."http://www.christianforums.com/#cr-descriptionAnchor-9

I honestly don't know about you, but I can't find any wiggle room in what Jesus has said here about God seeing anyone who is divorced having any marriage after such divorce that is not seen in His sight as committing adultery. What do you think? Did Mark not understand? Did He not record correctly what Jesus said?

So, hopefully, while you may not agree, you can see why I take issue with those who would say that in one place in the Scriptures Jesus seems to give approval of certain causes for divorce, but in others he speaks adamantly against divorce for any reason. I don't believe that the Scriptures are ever contradictory and so when I read that Jesus said divorce was ok in the matter of infidelity, I read further and understand that no, he wasn't saying it was ok, but merely pointing out that for any other cause the spouse makes the divorced person an adulterer, but in the case of marital unfaithfulness the unfaithful spouse makes themself an adulterer. This allows me to join all Scripture together without contradiction.

Still, even without the issue of whether or not God honors a divorce we have the instructions that Paul lays out for those who would be pastors and deacons. That they must show an ability to maintain their own households before they can be given the responsibility of pastor or deacon.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[DeaconDean]

I don't agree that he made any 'exception' when he said what the previous poster refers to

I had to go away and think real hard before I gave this an answer.

So here goes.

Since my teaching is false, and rather than pollute this thread with my heretical teaching, I'm going to delete my previous remarks and ask forgiveness for even posting in this thread.

That should make you happy.

But before I go, I just want to remind everybody that at one point in time, God Himself "divorced" Himself from Israel.

"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." -Jer. 3:8 (KJV)

Many times in the Old Testament, is it recorded that Israel, specifically Jerusalem, fornicated. (cf. 2 Chronicles 21:11; Isaiah 23:17; Ezekiel 16:15; Ezekiel 16:26; Ezekiel 16:29)

But what the heck do I know?

And so I bow gracefully out of this discussion.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[chriso]

Thanks so much Ted and Dean for sharing your ideas on this issue.

 

[40creek]

Sometimes a man (or women) cannot prevent a divorce. We live in a day and age where if your wife choses to leave you, you cannot stop her. Now then, if someone becomes a divorcee through no fault of his own should he be hindered in his service to God and church?

I am not writing to post a judgment because I have sat here and wrestled with it to the point of complete cranial malfunction but I would like to add this popular scenario to the equation.

Lets take another scenario. A very competant Pastor finds his wife is leaving him for a man she met on line. This Pastor is at a complete loss to prevent her leaving. Should this very competant Pastor tender his immediate resignation?

 

[His_disciple3]

Hi Chriso,

No, I don't believe a divorced man should ever seek to be a pastor or deacon. I know that this is a tough lesson. Just as the lesson of divorce. It's a hard teaching. However, Jesus was clear and I don't agree that he made any 'exception' when he said what the previous poster refers to:
That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery.

I find it fairly clear that all Jesus was saying was that in this singular case the husband was not causing the wife to be labeled a fornicator. I think as we read the following words:
and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

we find that there is quite a bit more to this issue than just the divorce issue.

Notice that Jesus then says that anyone who marries the divorced woman also commits adultery. Not a woman caught in fornication, necessarily, but any divorced woman. I also find that it is always good to look at everything the Scriptures say about an issue before making judgments as to what God is intending for us to understand.

So, let's look at Mark's gospel. He writes this account of Jesus' words regarding the subject when pressed by the Pharisees:
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" "What did Moses command you?" he replied. They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. "But at the beginning of creation God 'made them male and female.' 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

What is being said here? Jesus is asked about divorce. "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" They offer no cause but only ask whether or not divorce is lawful. Jesus asks them, "What did Moses command?" They reply that Moses said it was ok to divorce one's wife. Jesus again replies to them, "It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law. But at the beginning of creation God made them male and female. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." Listen very carefully to his next words: "So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

As I said in the previous post. Marriage, although we tend to look at it in this manner, is not just a promise between a man and a woman. Jesus says that God has joined them together. When we divorce our spouse we are defying what God has joined togeher. He has blessed and He has caused to be one flesh in His sight. Then we come to the hardest message of all the Scriptures regarding divorce:
"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

I honestly don't know about you, but I can't find any wiggle room in what Jesus has said here about God seeing anyone who is divorced having any marriage after such divorce that is not seen in His sight as committing adultery. What do you think? Did Mark not understand? Did He not record correctly what Jesus said?

So, hopefully, while you may not agree, you can see why I take issue with those who would say that in one place in the Scriptures Jesus seems to give approval of certain causes for divorce, but in others he speaks adamantly against divorce for any reason. I don't believe that the Scriptures are ever contradictory and so when I read that Jesus said divorce was ok in the matter of infidelity, I read further and understand that no, he wasn't saying it was ok, but merely pointing out that for any other cause the spouse makes the divorced person an adulterer, but in the case of marital unfaithfulness the unfaithful spouse makes themself an adulterer. This allows me to join all Scripture together without contradiction.

Still, even without the issue of whether or not God honors a divorce we have the instructions that Paul lays out for those who would be pastors and deacons. That they must show an ability to maintain their own households before they can be given the responsibility of pastor or deacon.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

you say that we should consider all scripture, but then you over look the exception Jesus gave and say there is no exception, saving for the cause of fornication. we have to go back to the old law Jesus was referring to where if a man could prove His wife was not a virgin, on their wedding night He could put her away. the proof was either the blood on the bed sheets or no blood, and this proof was presented to the brides parents. look people, careful at scriptures it says except fornication not Adultery

 

[OzSpen]

chriso

I have a question- Should you be allowed to be Ordained as a Deacon in a Baptist church if you have been divorced before? The Bible makes the point of "husband of one wife". So is it Ok if you divorced your wife on biblical grounds. Also what about a Pastor?

If a man is divorced from his wife, he is no longer the husband of that wife. Divorce ends the husband-wife relationship.

The issue then becomes, from an example of Christian character: Did the person divorce on biblical grounds?

I have an article online for your consideration: "Marriage, divorce & remarriage: A Christian view".

In Christ, Oz

 

[OzSpen]

chriso,

Thanks for your comments Ted. We have a few men in our church that seem to fit the qualifications of a Deacon but early in their life they went through a divorce. If they have repented of their sins and got their relationship right with the Lord is it OK for them to serve in the position of Deacon? I have always believed God is interested in where we are, and not our past if we truly have repented of our sins. Being a servant of God is such a blessing. Thanks for your input. God Bless You.

What sins we committed before coming to Christ, are ALL covered by the blood of Christ. Therefore, divorce prior to faith, should not come into consideration when deciding ministries after faith.

What often happens is that divorce is one of the most overt of relationships. Before a person came to Christ, if he/she was an adulterer, fornicator, prostitute, thief, liar, etc., this can be camouflaged.

Of course there can be consequences for past sins -- STDs, prison sentences, support of children born outside of marriage - but if these sins were committed before we were forgiven, they should be treated as forgiven sin.

The same applies to divorce before salvation - it is forgiven and under the blood of Christ.

In Christ, Oz

 

[miamited]

hi 40creek,

You asked: Should this very competant Pastor tender his immediate resignation?

I certainly think he should give very serious consideration as to whether he is being submissive to God's will or depending on his own abilities and possibly some pride in not 'wanting' to give up what he has done all his life. Friend, there are plenty of competent men who can pastor/deacon a fellowship. Again let's look at what Paul gives as the qualifications for a man to be a pastor/deacon.
"A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well."

God seems to hold the post of pastor/deacon in very high regard among His Son's church. There are a couple of good reasons that God, through Paul, might have had these qualifications regarding pastor/deacon given. First and foremost would be how others might regard the teaching of such a pastor. Secondly would be, if we believe Jesus claim that after divorce both spouses would always be committing adultery in any sexual relations with a third party, the temptation to fulfill such adultery before God's Son's church. If a man, after divorce, is committing adultery if he gets into another relationship, then he would be standing before Gods children as a teacher and practicing adulterer.

I think that God makes it fairly plain and simple. If a man is divorced for whatever reason, then he has a: failed to manage his family well; and b: may well later be standing before God's children as an adulterer.

You asked for everyone's thoughts on the subject and these are mine.

To Deacon, I'm sorry if I offended you. All I said was that I didn't agree with your understanding. I think such postitions, although one may not 'say' that they don't agree, are fairly common in these threads. I know that you have posted here for a long time (14,000 posts since '05) so I'm confident that you have discussed with others who have disagreed with your understanding or position. For whatever reason you have chosen now to claim personal injury to your id and I don't know why that is, but I am truly sorry that I have injured you in any way.

You might see this, as I do, as similar to the issue of women as pastors and deacons. Paul has revealed to us through the guiding of the Holy Spirit, and I believe God Himself has made clear in the establishment of the old covenant priesthood, that His qualifications for pastors among His Son's church are that they are to be men. For whatever reasons that God might have, He is God and He gets to make the rules. However, in our day of 'enlightenment' and 'gender equality' we don't want to agree with God's word on this subject. We claim that there are women who do a fine job of pastoring and teaching, and well they may, but, BUT, God has laid out certain qualifications for His children in His kingdom who claim allegiance to Him through His Son and the question to be answered is not, how qualifed is this person to me? Does this person teach the truth of God? Although that is a serious question to also ask, but the beginning question, before even getting to the issue of what is preached, is whether or not the prospective candidate meets some more basic requirements. One is that they be the husband of but one wife (notice carefully that Paul says 'husband' and that pretty well throws out any woman for consideration, period!)

I am fully convinced that God reveals to us in His word what He wants revealed. He says what He means and means what He says. Therefore, when by the Holy Spirit, God caused Paul to pen these words He intended the word 'husband' as opposed to 'spouse' or 'person who has only one spouse'. Therefore, I find, that there are at least a couple of Scriptural examples that would give understanding to us that God expects us to put men in the place of pastor/deacon and that these men must have shown an ability to manage their own families well before being given the honor of leading God's people.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[savedfromdistruction]

I have a question- Should you be allowed to be Ordained as a Deacon in a Baptist church if you have been divorced before? The Bible makes the point of "husband of one wife". So is it Ok if you divorced your wife on biblical grounds. Also what about a Pastor?

The passage you are referring to is a VERY bad translation. it actually does not say husband of one wife in the Greek. It says "One woman man." Although it would included in it the idea that the man never be divorced it goes far beyond that. It is an issue of character and not position. many men are married and have ever literally cheated on their wives, but they do have eyes for other women or like being touchy with other women. They are disqualified because of this passage.
Now what about a person who is divorced and re-marries. Well personally would not want him as my pastor or a deacon even if it was the previous wife's fault that they divorced. The reason is that most likely if delved into deeply enough he also failed in the marriage and helped push her to divorce. A good example of someone who has violated this is Charles Stanley. He is divorced and knew he should step down but let his church talk him into staying.

 

[miamited]

Hi Oz,

You wrote: Divorce ends the husband-wife relationship.

I'm not certain that that's what Jesus is teaching us when he tells us that once we are divorced the rest of our relationships constitute adultery. If divorce ends, in God's sight, the marriage relationship, then why would a woman who is divorced be committing adultery. Why would a man who marries that woman be committing adultery if there is no marriage covenant that God sees being broken. They have remarried and apparently with the blessings of the 'church' so why would their relationship then be considered adultery by God's Son? That just doesn't make sense to me and I don't believe it is what God's word teaches.

How can we honestly teach that divorce ends the covenental relationship between God and a man and a woman who have been married and then teach the woman, but hey, all of your relationships from now on will be seen as adultery by Jesus?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi SFD,

I must admit to you that I have difficulty accepting, many times, teaching that says, "Well, this or that passage of Scripture is a bad translation." The first thing I do is to go look at various translations. Here's what I know. The 'facts' about the translating of the original manuscript copies that we have.

Many, many very fine believing men and women have had, in the last 500 years, their hands in the work of translating the Scriptures. Yes, I can see, and often do, that one or two translations may word something just a bit differently and then I will further study what the intention of the writer meant between the two options. However, in the case mentioned here, there are 19 various english translations that have translated this passage as either 'husband of one wife' or 'having only one wife'.
Amazingly the NRS version actually translates this passage as 'married only once'. The CJB and the NIRV, NLT, the Message, and TNIV allow that he must be 'faithful' to his wife. I'm not particularly familiar with the CJB, but it has been my practice when others ask about good translations that I have usually steered them away from the NIRV, NLT, the Message (totally worthless) and the TNIV. Most of these are newer translations that make no bones about the fact that they are trying to offer up a gender neutral translation of the Scriptures and are a thought for thought translation. I stand adamantly opposed to such a thing.

Now, let's put our thinking caps on and really consider this question. Do you really expect me to believe, and you do in fact believe, that for 500 years and hundreds of scholars wiser than surely myself, I can't speak for your degrees and study in the field of ancient koine Greek, have never given us the 'real' understanding of what Paul wrote here? I have to honestly say that I find that just a bit preposterous. However, your claim that it should be translated as 'man of one woman' is perfectly acceptable to me when I know that the person I am sharing God's wisdom with fully understands what God means when he speaks of a man's woman. Sadly, in the world today, if the Scriptures were translated with your wording we'd have many pastors who just showed up with the girlfriend of the week. Every week the congregation would spend 15 minutes or so being introduced to the new woman of the 'one woman man'. So long as he didn't ever let the relationships overlap, he would always be a one woman man wouldn't he?

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Goinheix]

Depends why you've been divorced.

God did stabished that a man and a woman unite for life time. That is for all humans since Adam and Eve until today and the centuries to come. It has nothing to do with the Moses Law. Actually, Moses admited some kind of divorse in some cases. As Jesus explained, it was Moses, not God who admited that exception. Neaither has nothing to do with christians. Many (as Moses did) pretend that after convertion we are a new man and new woman; and any divorse previous to the convertion is erased, vanished. Also pretend that if after convertion you diforce from a nonnchristian espouse, it is OK.

For the Lord; divorce is not aceptable.

Concernin to your question. The requisite is being sexualy moral. A man with many wifes is not aceptable. A man with no wife is also kind a dangerous since hi will be tented all the time. Paul is not talking about if you have ever been diverced.

If you have divorced, that do not plesase God; probabky is a sin. We all are siners and very often do not please God. Your situation is exactly the same that all we that did never been divorced. No one is pleasing God, all of as are sinners.

 

[JCFantasy23]

Sometimes a man (or women) cannot prevent a divorce. We live in a day and age where if your wife choses to leave you, you cannot stop her. Now then, if someone becomes a divorcee through no fault of his own should he be hindered in his service to God and church?

I am not writing to post a judgment because I have sat here and wrestled with it to the point of complete cranial malfunction but I would like to add this popular scenario to the equation.

Lets take another scenario. A very competant Pastor finds his wife is leaving him for a man she met on line. This Pastor is at a complete loss to prevent her leaving. Should this very competant Pastor tender his immediate resignation?

Great points. These, and others, are why I think sometimes a person can become/remain a pastor. I'm sure God calls those that have even been divorced. There have been those who divorced before they believed. There are those who sin in other ways and struggle there in the past but now serve as pastors. Point is, once repentence is done, it's done. If the person remarries, the new marriage is valid, the old sin committed and repented, the new marriage is still a new marriage. And of course there's the points you make - sometimes it's not a sin for the person to divorce and really just wasn't a fault of their own. Shouldn't cut the off from service of God if they are called to it.