David Virtue, checking in

[gordonhooker]

I find it really hard to have the kind of conversation here that I'd really like to. I'm very aware of our divisions and that honesty about that would be very painful (and sometimes against the rules).

I started the chat thread hoping that we could at least talk about day-to-day things and build a sense of sharing lighter things that way, but even that isn't very active.

I agree with you on that point - although it could work if people said things like:

I believe ......
or I was taught ....

rather than make a statement as fact that not all tribes within the Anglican communion take as a fact - even using the words Orthodox Anglican which I believes points to yet another Anglican Tribe that is the Reformed side of the equation. These are the labels that tend to start the sometimes heated discussions. I would be quite happy to discuss these issues using the language... I believe... I was taught... etc.

 

[Albion]

even using the words Orthodox Anglican which I believes points to yet another Anglican Tribe that is the Reformed side of the equation.

You may "believe" it, but knowing if that is the case or not would have been better. As it is, you are dead wrong.

I can see where putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 came from, but really, it would have been better to find out the facts first.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I find it really hard to have the kind of conversation here that I'd really like to. I'm very aware of our divisions and that honesty about that would be very painful (and sometimes against the rules).

I started the chat thread hoping that we could at least talk about day-to-day things and build a sense of sharing lighter things that way, but even that isn't very active.

I don't really have much interest in the "that's the church I go to/that's the church I don't go to" threads.

I would much rather discuss the roles we personally have in church, and our mission activities.

 

[David Virtue]

I could couldn't find any forums. It looks like a news site.

You are completely right in that. VOL does not have a forums section (yet? anything is on the table with VOL 2.0). But we do have a very strong comments section beneath each article, wherein often hundreds of people often post. That being said it does not at all function like the CF forums with threaded discussions; the comments people make pertain specifically to the news or commentary article at hand. Places like CF and Facebook certainly have an important function to fill.

That's a good point. Virtueonline.org is a one-way-communication site: it posts items for other people to read, but doesn't seem to be a discussion site. CF, by contrast, is a discussion site, where we can exchange views in hopes of better understanding each other.

The branch of Anglicanism represented on Virtueonline.org is very different from my own. I'm from the other end of the spectrum. I'll say it this way: I am very happy with the direction that The Episcopal Church is taking. So we're from two groups so different that we sometimes demonize each other, an unhealthy attitude for two groups who both follow Christ.

CF might be a good place for us to have a conversation. We won't change each other's minds on theology, I don't think, but we could come to a better understanding of and respect for each other as fellow servants of Jesus who are trying to do what's right.

Quite!

I kinda thought that was what was intended when discussion was mentioned--do it here.

Incidentally, you are right that David Virtue and his site represent another Anglican POV, but it's hardly the other end of a spectrum. More like the middle. We do have the whole spectrum represented on this forum, but it may be that the middle is the least represented, so this may work out well if discussion follows.

You are most correct! People mistake outspokenness for extremeness.

I have always felt, as an evangelical, outside the prevailing culture of STR, so it doesn't faze me to listen to someone coming at a different angle.

I just crave talk - anything is better than the silence we have now.

As Albion has said I am indeed extremely busy but I have made it my mission to build a new Virtue 2.0 platform and that involves reaching out to the whole of the Anglican world and making a common cause together. I'll be happy to talk!

I don't think you are outside the prevailing culture of STR, but I share your feeling that the more the discussion, and the more participants there are, the better it is.

I would like DavidVirtue to join us here, although he probably has his hands filled with running his own website and the duties of reporter that go along with it, much or most of which he does personally, from what I can gather.

Thank you. I will do what I can, although for the next 8 weeks I will probably be more available than thereafter, as now is when I'm in the "common cause" process I had mentioned in my reply to Naomi.

 

[gordonhooker]

You may "believe" it, but knowing if that is the case or not would have been better. As it is, you are dead wrong.

I can see where putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 came from, but really, it would have been better to find out the facts first.

Here in lies the reason for my post above as there are some fairly rude people in here, hence why people tend not to bother posting here...

The Anglican Orthodox Church (AOC) claims to be the second oldest conservative Anglican denomination (the Reformed Episcopal Church being the oldest, founded in 1873), and the oldest to be formed in the United States in the 20th century.

 

[Shane R]

But we do have a very strong comments section beneath each article, wherein often hundreds of people often post.

And wherein Bruce Atkinson employs some uneven, sometimes heavy-handed, and always slightly rude moderation or goading. Do you know how many people Bruce has turned off over time? I hear from them with regularity.

And you would be taken more seriously as a 'conservative' if you feigned an interest in the Continuum from time to time. I know we don't produce much news but there is NO coverage unless ++Haverland is playing a tune you like to hear.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Here in lies the reason for my post above as there are some fairly rude people in here, hence why people tend not to bother posting here...

Does everything here have to descend into denominationalism?

 

[Naomi4Christ]

And wherein Bruce Atkinson employs some uneven, sometimes heavy-handed, and always slightly rude moderation or goading. Do you know how many people Bruce has turned off over time? I hear from them with regularity.

And you would be taken more seriously as a 'conservative' if you feigned an interest in the Continuum from time to time. I know we don't produce much news but there is NO coverage unless ++Haverland is playing a tune you like to hear.

Blimey

 

[gordonhooker]

Does everything here have to descend into denominationalism?

Who is talking about denominalisalism? My comments were about people putting forward their beliefs with stating them as the only belief. The only person who has been rude here was Albion.

 

[Albion]

Here in lies the reason for my post above as there are some fairly rude people in here, hence why people tend not to bother posting here...

The Anglican Orthodox Church (AOC) claims to be the second oldest conservative Anglican denomination (the Reformed Episcopal Church being the oldest, founded in 1873), and the oldest to be formed in the United States in the 20th century.

You see, my friend, how observations, made about the church situation in another country, based upon a "quick read" of some posting online and a guess about the meaning of some term, can be very wrong.

The paragraph above doesn't say that the Anglican Orthodox Church is related to the Reformed Episcopal Church but, rather, that it is the second oldest non-Canterbury Anglican body in the USA, having been founded after the REC was.

Nor, for that matter, does David Virtue's use of the term "Orthodox Anglican" refer to either Reformed theology or the Anglican Orthodox Church (or to the Orthodox Anglican Church which also exists in the USA and is represented by one of our posters here on STR). But all of that could have been discerned before sending out that message of non-welcome.

 

[David Virtue]

I am certainly using the word "orthodox" as indicative of historic Anglican doctrine; there may be orthodox Presbyterians, orthodox Catholics, which simply indicates their level of appeal to their respective historic traditions.

 

[SteveCaruso]

The fiddly bit with that is that "orthodoxy" is really more determined by the Creeds and that hasn't really changed in Anglican tradition as a whole. To use it in this sense would imply that the usual gamut of issues represented by the distinction you're referring to are Creedal issues – which they are not.

"Traditional," "classical," or perhaps even "ancestral" would be a much better, more descriptive monicker.

For what it's worth.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I interpret orthodox to mean nicene creed stuff.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

If you talk about historical Anglicanism, you get into 39 Articles territory, which I am 100% behind, but tends to send our cousins into a frenzy.

 

[David Virtue]

The fiddly bit with that is that "orthodoxy" is really more determined by the Creeds and that hasn't really changed in Anglican tradition as a whole. To use it in this sense would imply that the usual gamut of issues represented by the distinction you're referring to are Creedal issues – which they are not.

"Traditional," "classical," or perhaps even "ancestral" would be a much better, more descriptive monicker.

For what it's worth.

I appreciate your thought. Will you join me to describe the proposed TEC Prayer Book as non-orthodox when it introduces gender-neutral descriptions of the Godhead and thus violates the Creeds?

 

[SteveCaruso]

I appreciate your thought. Will you join me to describe the proposed TEC Prayer Book as non-orthodox when it introduces gender-neutral descriptions of the Godhead and thus violates the Creeds?

Very good question.

If it were to try and refer to God the Father as "God the Mother" or Christ as a "she" -- then that would be a no-brainer: That's a non-orthodox position. Period. (And a number of people who I know who advocate for that position also – ironically – take great offense at others purposefully mis-gendering someone after their stated pronoun preferences are made clear... :-/ )

That said, there *is* a very long tradition among Hebrew and Aramaic-speaking Christians that casts the Holy Spirit into the feminine gender in a similar manner to how "sophia" or "wisdom" is feminine. Even Christ would have referred to the Spirit with the pronoun היא /hi/ or "she" – as that is simply how the language works.

However: If it were to describe the Trinity or the whole Godhead as a unit as un-explicitly gendered, I'm not sure it'd be a Creedal issue. I am willing to entertain arguments for or against.

 

[PloverWing]

I appreciate your thought. Will you join me to describe the proposed TEC Prayer Book as non-orthodox when it introduces gender-neutral descriptions of the Godhead and thus violates the Creeds?

I've only been able to find snippets of proposed text online (does the revised Prayer Book actually exist yet?), so it's hard to comment without seeing the details. Are you talking about a re-translation of the Creeds, or are you just talking about removing he/him pronouns from the liturgy when that can be gracefully done?

 

[SteveCaruso]

I've only been able to find snippets of proposed text online (does the revised Prayer Book actually exist yet?), so it's hard to comment without seeing the details. Are you talking about a re-translation of the Creeds, or are you just talking about removing he/him pronouns from the liturgy when that can be gracefully done?

Aye it doesn't exist yet. Not to mention that the actual revision is not likely going to happen any time soon either. There are lots of could-be's but nothing definite outside of a few changes already agreed upon (like the gender neutral language marriage rite).

 

[Naomi4Christ]

I've created a new thread to discuss the new Prayer book here

TEC new creed