David and Jonathan

[DMagoh]

I always find it amusing when people try to say that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. For one thing, they were in the Old Testament and were still under the laws in Leviticus. David would not have been caught dead "lying with a man as one lies with a woman".

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

And even if you stretch so far out to even think it might have been possible, it sure wouldnt have been public so that others knew about it and wrote about it in the Bible. And if he had, he would have been called on it and would have suffered consequences just like he did when he committed adultery with Bathsheba.

So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?

 

[ReformedChapin]

I always find it amusing when people try to say that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. For one thing, they were in the Old Testament and were still under the laws in Leviticus. David would not have been caught dead "lying with a man as one lies with a woman".

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

And even if you stretch so far out to even think it might have been possible, it sure wouldnt have been public so that others knew about it and wrote about it in the Bible. And if he had, he would have been called on it and would have suffered consequences just like he did when he committed adultery with Bathsheba.

So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?

Obviously gay supporters cannot see past their homosexual pressupostisions and throw logic out of the window and somehow "fundies" end up being the illogical religious fancatics.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

I don't believe that. Be careful to assume all homosexual Christian believe that.

 

[dayhiker]

I agree that its not clear that David's and Jonathan's relationsihp was homosexual. Nor is it clear that it wasn't.
What is clear to me is that David was a man after God's heart and his sexual live (which God only called him on his adultery) would keep him from testifing in almost every church in the land if he was to walk into our midst today. That says to me that we have a differnt way of looking at things than God does.

dayhiker

 

[ReformedChapin]

I agree that its not clear that David's and Jonathan's relationsihp was homosexual. Nor is it clear that it wasn't.
What is clear to me is that David was a man after God's heart and his sexual live (which God only called him on his adultery) would keep him from testifing in almost every church in the land if he was to walk into our midst today. That says to me that we have a differnt way of looking at things than God does.

dayhiker

We don't know if Jesus was gay either so why not assume he is then? C'MON! After all we all have a different way of looking at things.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

We don't know if Jesus was gay either so why not assume he is then? C'MON! After all we all have a different way of looking at things.

Who assumed Jesus was gay? You mean Hollywood? You really take Hollywood that seriously?

Christ was abstinent. He didn't have any sexual attractions because as I've said before, sexual attraction in general can lead to sinful behavior.

 

[ReformedChapin]

Who assumed Jesus was gay? You mean Hollywood? You really take Hollywood that seriously?

Christ was abstinent. He didn't have any sexual attractions because as I've said before, sexual attraction in general can lead to sinful behavior.

Someone completely missed the point...again.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

Someone completely missed the point...again.

Maybe because you never have a point? Your posts consist of "I'm Right <insert sarcasm here>"

 

[calvins96]

I always find it amusing when people try to say that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. For one thing, they were in the Old Testament and were still under the laws in Leviticus. David would not have been caught dead "lying with a man as one lies with a woman".

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13

And even if you stretch so far out to even think it might have been possible, it sure wouldnt have been public so that others knew about it and wrote about it in the Bible. And if he had, he would have been called on it and would have suffered consequences just like he did when he committed adultery with Bathsheba.

So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?

You rationalized your thoughts and make logical sense out of it, so you certainly can't be told you are wrong for what you believe. Again, however, it would be up to how someone interprets it. Perhaps David and Jonathan didn't ACT upon their feelings. Who's to say? I'd have no idea as I didn't walk the earth back then. What I do know is :

1 Samuel 20:41

After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most.(NIV)​

​

Other translations have a different ending to the verse:

• …and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded. (KJV)
• …and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself. (Amplified Bible)
• and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more. (Living Bible)
• They kissed each other and wept together until David got control of himself. (Modern Language)
• They kissed each other and wept aloud together. (New American Bible)
• Then David and Jonathan kissed each other. They cried together, but David cried the most. (New Century Version)
• Then they kissed one another and shed tears together, until David’s grief was even greater than Jonathan’s. (Revised English Bible)
• …and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself. (Revised Standard Version)

How would a literalist interpret these scriptures? Certainly one could think there was some sort of homosexuality here, and perhaps just never acted on it. Again, I truly don't know. You may find it amusing..but whether it was the law or not..you think no one disobeyed the law in God's time...only now? That I think is amusing. No one is suggesting a passionate love affair between the two men..but certainly there was SOMETHING there rather than just two friends. If that were the case, it wouldn't have been any different than any relationships b/w two men, but these two were pointed out.

 

[DMagoh]

Perhaps David and Jonathan didn't ACT upon their feelings.

And if you didnt act upon yours, you wouldnt be sinning either.

How would a literalist interpret these scriptures?

Exactly the way it's written - we wouldnt extrapolate homosexuality into it.

you think no one disobeyed the law in God's time...only now?

Nope, I think I mentioned David's adultery. I said if he had committed homosexual acts, he would have tried to hide it like he did the adultery....AND, he would have been called on it and punished just like he was for adultery.

 

[GwynApNudd]

Nope, I think I mentioned David's adultery. I said if he had committed homosexual acts, he would have tried to hide it like he did the adultery....AND, he would have been called on it and punished just like he was for adultery.

Just a couple of thoughts here. Take them however you will:

First--

And it came to pass in the morning, that Jonathan went out into the field at the time appointed with David, and a little lad with him. And he said unto his lad, Run, find out now the arrows which I shoot. And as the lad ran, he shot an arrow beyond him. And when the lad was come to the place of the arrow which Jonathan had shot, Jonathan cried after the lad, and said, Is not the arrow beyond thee? And Jonathan cried after the lad, Make speed, haste, stay not. And Jonathan's lad gathered up the arrows, and came to his master. But the lad knew not any thing: only Jonathan and David knew the matter. And Jonathan gave his artillery unto his lad, and said unto him, Go, carry them to the city. And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city.

Sounds like they were trying to hide their meetings.

And second --
One punishment mentioned in the Bible for the adultery with Bathsheba was the death of the child. Might not David have felt that Jonathan's death was also a punishment?

The other punishment was the murder of Ammon and the treason and death of Absalom. Which was also the outworking of the sins of Absalom and Ammon. The tragedies of the remainder's of Jonathan's family (especially his brother Ish-Boseth) might be interpretted in similar light.

 

[jojored]

I thing that the strongest point suggesting the Jonathan and David were more than just "friends" would be found in Samuel II; Chapter I verse 26. Upon learning of Jonathan's dead David states " I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan: You have been very pleasant (underline added) to me; Your love to me was wonderful, Surpassing the love of women."

To me, it can't get much clearer than that...these were David's words.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

Just a couple of thoughts here. Take them however you will:

First--


Sounds like they were trying to hide their meetings.

And second --
One punishment mentioned in the Bible for the adultery with Bathsheba was the death of the child. Might not David have felt that Jonathan's death was also a punishment?

The other punishment was the murder of Ammon and the treason and death of Absalom. Which was also the outworking of the sins of Absalom and Ammon. The tragedies of the remainder's of Jonathan's family (especially his brother Ish-Boseth) might be interpretted in similar light.

They hid their meetings because Saul wanted David dead, and was crazy.

What you say about Jonathan's death is speculative only. There is on evidence of that. God put mutiny in David's house because of what happened with Bathsheba. You cannot hide from God. If David had committed homosexual sins, God would know, and there would be divine wrath mentioned and administered for that sin.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

I thing that the strongest point suggesting the Jonathan and David were more than just "friends" would be found in Samuel II; Chapter I verse 26. Upon learning of Jonathan's dead David states " I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan: You have been very pleasant (underline added) to me; Your love to me was wonderful, Surpassing the love of women."

To me, it can't get much clearer than that...these were David's words.

\

Their bond was stronger than any bond either had had with a woman. That doesn't equal homosexuality. Many heterosexual people experience this today. I do.

 

[WashedBytheSon]

So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?

This is the main point, everyone.

 

[GwynApNudd]

Just a couple of thoughts here. Take them however you will:

They hid their meetings because Saul wanted David dead, and was crazy.

Yes, quite likely. But it was the OP who implied that hiding would be evidence of homosexuality. I was simply pointing out that they did hide.

What you say about Jonathan's death is speculative only. There is on evidence of that.

Actually, this thought doesn't even rise to the level of "speculative" and I admitted that right from the start. That does not mean that it can't or shouldn't be raised. It is only by entertaining all "what if" thoughts that we can be sure that we aren't overlooking the obvious.

God put mutiny in David's house because of what happened with Bathsheba. You cannot hide from God. If David had committed homosexual sins, God would know, and there would be divine wrath mentioned and administered for that sin.

Your assumption ("If David had committed homosexual sins, God would punish him") still leaves three possibilities:

1. God did not punish him, so David did not commit "homosexual sins." (your conclusion)
2. David committed "homosexual sins" and God did punish him. (my "thought")
3. God did not punish him, so David's homosexual "sins" were not sins.

I'm not necessarily advocating 2 or 3, but your statements do not eliminate them as possibilities.

 

[GwynApNudd]

So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?

This is the main point, everyone.

Evidence, please? Either of you?

 

[AngelusSax]

And if you didnt act upon yours, you wouldnt be sinning either.

Not necessarily. Lusting after someone IS adultery, according to Jesus (and despite an ultra-literal reading of the words, it would be simplistic and silly to assume it's only if you lust after women).

So if homosexuality is a sin, any time you lust after a person of your gender, even if you're married heterosexually and never acting on your lusts, you are then committing homosexual adultery.

Just like when a straight person lusts after someone who isn't their spouse, they commit heterosexual adultery. But adultery is adultery, and under OT law, punishable by death.

 

[DMagoh]

So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?

This is the main point, everyone.

Evidence, please? Either of you?

Excuse me? I said there were NO examples in the Bible...I prove that by nobody being able to find any - see if YOU can find one. There arent any!

I say again...the only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. You can speculate about who was homosexual all you want - but any definite mentions of homosexuality is combined with either destruction or condemnation. Find me ONE verse that says anything positive about homosexuality.

 

[GwynApNudd]

Excuse me? I said there were NO examples in the Bible...I prove that by nobody being able to find any - see if YOU can find one. There arent any!

You made the claim that there are no examples, so the burden of proof is on you. Saying that you can't find any examples and that no one else has proven that there are examples is not the same thing as saying that there are no examples.

This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. It ignores the possibility that there are examples for which there is no proof one way or the other. And there are several examples of that type: Joseph and Potiphar, Daniel and Ashpenaz, David and Jonathan, Elijah and Elisha, Ruth and Naomi, Jehu and Jehonadab, and finally one that is hard to see as not being sexual, the centurion and his pais.

Care to try again?