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Date of the Resurrection

Strong in Him

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Why do we not celebrate His resurrection on the date that scripture tells us it happened?

I'm assuming by that you mean, "why does the church not hold its Easter services on the day on which the Jewish calendar says that the resurrection took place, rather than the nearest Sunday?"

I would guess because
a) we're not Jews, and I believe their calendar is different to ours?
b) like I said, we celebrate the resurrection every day - every time we sing and pray. Just as we think of the cross every time we confess our sins and not just once a year on Good Friday.
 
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Yekcidmij

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I would guess because
a) we're not Jews, and I believe their calendar is different to ours?

I think you're right. There was actually a big debate about this in the very early church. It was one of the first controversies to come about. The difference boils down to a difference in what calendars were being used. Some of the church used a Jewish lunar calendar, some of the church used the Julian solar calendar. This is one of the few things that Nicaea bashers can actually legitimately say was resolved at the Council of Nicaea (see Eusebius, "Church History", 5.23).

It should also be noted too, however, that those who use a Jewish calendar today are not using a biblical calendar, or a calendar that was used in Jesus' day, either. They are using one that was fixed by Rabbi's during the middle ages. Really, very few people, if any, use an actual biblical calendar (there is more than one used in the bible, and the Torah itself, anyway) or actual first century Jewish calendar (and there was more than one in use in the first century).
 
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lismore

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Why do we not celebrate His resurrection on the date that scripture tells us it happened?

Hello there:wave:

Because of replacement theology everything with even moderate Jewish connections has been changed in the church.

Some people now even say openly that Jesus was not a Jew.

There has been so much persecution of Jews in Western Judeo-Christian society that we have a specific name for it, anti-Semitism. From Constantine down through many of the popes, Catholic monarchs, they have made anti-Jewish irrational outbursts.

I recently had a nice chat with a member of the Sabbath Day Observance Society who wanted to see Ferry Services to Lewis cancelled on Sunday to mark the Sabbath. He was an intelligent man but didnt know that the sabbath started on Friday at sundown.

Perhaps we shouldnt judge people for what dates they celebrate things on, however we should admit why these things are so.

:)
 
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Yekcidmij

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I recently had a nice chat with a member of the Sabbath Day Observance Society who wanted to see Ferry Services to Lewis cancelled on Sunday to mark the Sabbath. He was an intelligent man but didnt know that the sabbath started on Friday at sundown.

Perhaps we shouldnt judge people for what dates they celebrate things on, however we should admit why these things are so.

It's too bad this seventh day observance society isn't using the right calendar either. The same trouble that the early church had with easter is the same sort of trouble that this group has too. They are using a later made, solar calendar. They are observing the seventh day of the week on a Gregorian calendar. This is very ironic too since this calendar was created by Pope Gregory. I guess what people really need to admit is that we use the Gregorian calendar to determine our days, weeks, and months and so nobody uses a biblical calendar. Even for the observence of holy days like Passover or whatnot, the calendar used there is one that was fixed by midieval rabbis.

It's as the old saying goes, 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'. Before people go and start trying to throw mud on the early church maybe they ought to clean themselves up first?
 
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lismore

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IThey are observing the seventh day of the week on a Gregorian calendar.

Yes.

I dont suppose it's a big deal unless groups like the Sabbath Day Observance society, when they start saying 'you must not do xyz' on a Sunday.

When they start being dogmatic then they really must have all their ducks in a row.

Same with Easter, when a church says a certain date is 'Easter Sunday', they really must have all their ducks in a row.
 
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lismore

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I would guess because
a) we're not Jews, and I believe their calendar is different to ours?

Hello:wave:

Jesus is a Jew. He used that calendar.

I think that's where some of the disagreement is coming in, on our later calendar the date celebrated for Easter falls on a different day from the 14th Nisan, the day it actually was on the calendar of the time.

The church in the past has been dogmatic and said Easter must be celebrated on this new date, it was a major cause of conflict in the Scottish church of the 7th Century. The date of Easter also influenced other doctrines e.g where the church stood in relation to Israel and the Jews.

If the church celebrates Easter on 14th Nisan it is a reminder that Jesus Christ is a Jew, he was not a Catholic or Protestant but a Jew. He was not a Nicean, he was a Jew. Hence why this date was blotted out. All the church tradition in the world cannot blot out that the Saviour of the world comes from Israel and is coming back to Israel, as he himself said 'salvation is of the Jews'.

Being dogmatic about a new date will lead to conflict if that date is a little bit suspect.

People in our modern times are free to celebrate Easter on whatever date they wish, however others are free to point out the weakness in the new date.

Celebrating Easter specifically on the biblical date would have some advantages. Jesus as the passover lamb- a good way to share the gospel.


b) like I said, we celebrate the resurrection every day - every time we sing and pray. Just as we think of the cross every time we confess our sins and not just once a year on Good Friday.

True:)
 
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gratefulgrace

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I think the argument though was that there was no weakness that the seeming contradiction is presupposed.(Tacitly assume at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action that something is the case) And surely we are not still hearing that Chrisitians believe Jesus wasn't a JEW. How could they possibly read their Bible and come to that conclusion. Oh yeah they probably don't and are likely christians in name only. gg
 
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Pilgrimer

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Hello there:wave:

Because of replacement theology everything with even moderate Jewish connections has been changed in the church.

That's not true. For two reasons. First, what has changed is that the church, Jew and Gentile, is not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses which God made solely with the nation of Israel but the church, Jew and Gentile, is under the New Covenant Law of Christ that God has made with all nations, including the redeemed of Israel. The church did not make that change, God did.

God never intended to save the world and convert them to follow Moses. He intended for the Law of Moses to be a means of consecrating and making holy a people through whom He would bring salvation and convert the world to follow Christ.

But second, and on a more worldly aspect, it wasn't the church which literally broke ties with it's Jewish roots, it was the Jewish Pharisaic leaders who officially broke ties with the Christians. There was a lot of anger toward the Christians of Jerusalem and Judaea who refused to take part in the war against Rome and fled Jerusalem to the wilderness city of Pella to escape the siege and its attendant horrors and the final destruction of the city. The Jewish sages who survived the war gathered at Jamnia and officially reconstituted the Sanhedrin first under R. Johanan and then under the partriach Rabban Gamaliel II. The newly reconstituted Sanhedrin began the attempt to salvage the Jewish religion, minus its temple and sacrifical system. Their first decision was to adopt the Pharisaic school of Bet Hillel which would be practiced as "halacha" (Law). They instituted a system of prayers (the Eighteen Benedictions) that would replace the lost ritual of the Temple and which now become the ritual of the synagogue.

Another important decision made at Jamnia was to close the synagogues to all Christians, including Jewish Christians, and bar them from participation in the newly defined Jewish ritual life. In addition, the Sanhedrin introduced among it's Eighteen Benedictions that all Jews were required to recite each weekday three times a day, a curse, or anathem directed against Judaeo Christians and Jewish "heretics," composed by Samuel ha-Katan at the direction of Rabban Gamaliel II. ( Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 2, pages 841-842, Article: AMIDAH; Ibid. Volume 14, pages 815-816, Article: SAMUEL HA-KATAN)

This was the effective "break" between Christianity and Judaism when even Jewish Christians were no longer allowed to attend the synagogue or participate in Jewish life. When Christians refused to participate in the two following Jewish revolts against Rome, the animosity became even worse and with the Christian rejection of "Bar Kochba," who was proclaimed by the Jewish leaders as the "messiah," the break between Christianity and what had now evolved into Rabbinic Judaism was complete.

However, Christianity has ALWAYS recognized and included it's Hebrew roots in the faith, just as it has ALWAYS included the Hebrew Scriptures right alongside the Christian Scriptures as the whole Word of God. And study of the Old Testament Law and the Prophets has been of equal import to Christians from the very beginning. So to claim that Christianity has in any way denied or rejected or broken away from its Jewish roots is patently false. The term "Judaeo-Christian" faith gives full recognition to our roots. What Christianity does reject and has no agreement with is Rabbinic Judaism, the false interpretation and teaching on the Old Testament contained in the body of Talmudic writings that leads men away from the saving truth that Jesus is the Messiah that Moses and the Prophets foretold. But believing as we do that conversion to Christ is only accomplished out of a sincere heart, forced conversions are meaningless acts of violence that any true Christian condemns and rejects and would never sanction or practice.

So while it may serve anti-Christian forces with fodder for their attacks on Christianity to blame "the church" for the break between Christianity and Judaism, the truth is it was that same generation of Pharisaic Jewish leaders that rejected Jesus and waged war against Rome in an attempt to establish by force of arms the messianic kingdom of their own blind imagination that officially broke all ties with Christianity.

There are none so evil as wicked men who gain religious power, whether they be Jew or Christian.

Some people now even say openly that Jesus was not a Jew.

Those same misguided individuals also claim that the New Testament Scripture itself is anti-Semitic. Do you buy that too? Why on earth would you look around and seek out some nut job or cult with perverted doctrines and hold them up as some kind of example of "Christian" bias or hate? I can understand why an unbeliever would do so, it helps to bolster their accusations, but why would a Christian fall for such an obviously biased and unfair assessment? No "Christian" would ever deny that Jesus is a Jew! The Son of David. Of the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, born of the circumcision, a child of the Covenant God made with the fathers, the root of Jesse, the Lion of Judah, the Messiah of Israel ...

There has been so much persecution of Jews in Western Judeo-Christian society that we have a specific name for it, anti-Semitism. From Constantine down through many of the popes, Catholic monarchs, they have made anti-Jewish irrational outbursts.

The term "anti-Semitism" was coined by the German political writer Wilhelm Marr in his book "The Victory of Judaism over Germanicism" (1879) in which Marr advocated the secular racist ideas of Arthur de Gobineau's "An Essay on the Inequality of Human Races" (1853), a very popular book among the German people and the seed of the Nazi supremacy movement. "Anti-Semitism" refers to simple racial hatred without regard to religion, which is why even Jews who were secular, Christian Jews, and even Muslim Jews were still targeted by the Nazis as well, not just Rabbinic Jews, while those of other races who had converted to and were practicing Judaism were not targeted. Anti-Semitism is racial, not religious.

The church, on the other hand, has always stood in opposition to Rabbinic Judaism based on religious grounds and is therefore anti-Rabbinism, meaning opposed to the teachings and practice of Rabbinic Judaism, not anti-Semitic. That is evident even in the periods of persecution such as the Inquisition when not only Jews, but Muslims too were persecuted, and even Christian "heretics" were burned at the stake. The persecution was not limited to Jews (so it was not anti-Semitic) but Jews, Muslims, pagans, and even Christian "heretics" were targeted so the basis was religious, not racial. Had it been anti-Semitic, even Jews who had converted to Christianity would have been persecuted, but they weren't.

But even so, to make such a broad and sweeping condemation of "the church" as being guilty of anti-Semitism is not accurate. There were wicked men who gained positions of power within certain church organizations who used their power for evil purposes, not just the persecution of Jews, but of other religions and even other Christians as well. And there have always been cultic fringe groups who advocate all manner of hatred and perversion of doctrine. That by no means can be taken as a blanket condemnation of "the church," the whole body of believing Christians. Indeed, there were many Christians who opposed the persecutions and helped Jews, Muslims and fellow Christians, even at risk to their own lives. Even in the Catholic Church there were Popes who tried to protect Jews, such as Pope Innocent IV.

To make such a broad and sweeping judgment of all Christians by accusing "the church" of anti-Semitism is just as grossly unfair and hateful as making the broad and sweeping judgment that "the Jews" are guilty of deicide, a charge that is grossly false and equally hateful. It is people with shallow minds who cannot make the distinction between wicked leaders who do wicked things and those countless innocents whose hands are not stained with the wicked deeds of their leaders. And in modern Christendom, the Jewish people and nation of Israel has no better friend or more fierce defender than the American Protestant Evangelical Christian. Reality is never so simple that you can just willy nilly tar an entire religion or race or nation with the same brush. Practice a little of the rational thinking and simple discernment that God has given you and don't make such broad and sweeping statements, and reject the views of those people who do.

As a Christian we should always temper our comments to only condemn those members of church or religious organizations or sub-gropus within the larger whole that are actually guilty of hatred and violence and not become a tool of the anti-Christian propaganda that unjudiciously condemns "the church" as a whole. Haven't we learned that lesson from history? The Jewish people were not responsible for the death of Jesus, multitudes mourned and wept and lamented as they lined the way that led their Messiah to that bloody hill. It was the Jewish religious leaders on whose heads the blood of Jesus rested because they loved their positions of power more than God. But when the Jews revolted against the Romans those same Jewish authorities paid the price for their evil and were every single one slain by the people themselves for the traitors and sell-outs that they were.

Perhaps we shouldnt judge people for what dates they celebrate things on, however we should admit why these things are so.

:)

"Admit why these things are so" based on what evidence? Your say-so? I'm sorry, but your say-so cannot refute Scripture, history, and 2000 years of Christian belief and practice.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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lismore

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I think the argument though was that there was no weakness that the seeming contradiction is presupposed.(Tacitly assume at the beginning of a line of argument or course of action that something is the case) And surely we are not still hearing that Chrisitians believe Jesus wasn't a JEW. How could they possibly read their Bible and come to that conclusion. Oh yeah they probably don't and are likey christians in name only. gg

If Easter and Passover fall on different dates then it is clear there is a discrepancy.

Having them both at the same time would be a mighty witness to Jewish people, Jesus the passover lamb, the fulfillment. It would also benefit gospel preaching.

I think one of the reasons many Jewish people still dont see Jesus as their messiah is that Christianity has been moved away from it's Jewish roots. What should be obvious has been made very unclear. All the feasts of Israel point to Jesus and demonstrate the gospel, however we have divorced Christianity from it's roots and have it floating out in space somewhere. The feasts of Israel all pointed to Jesus.

Re: Jesus the Jew. It's sad that Jewish people down through the ages have been treated badly in 'Christian' countries. Being expelled from Spain in 1492 for example. It's clear many Christians dont understand who their saviour is.

A more modern example would be Pope John Paul 2nd and Yasser Arafat celebrating Christmas Eve at a service in Bethlehem. The pastor of the church I was in then liked to show the clip over and over, Yasser's ridiculous comment on Jesus and the Pope nodding^_^

Another modern example would be my family who were Roman Catholics for generations. I'm sorry to admit that many of them, as Catholics and before finding Christ were anti-Semitic. Many of the clergy were anti-Semitic too. My uncle had to repent of all the anti-Jewish comments and jokes he made as a young man, many of them also given to him by a priest. Just like Mel Gibson's anti-Jewish rant when pulled over by the cops, which I believe came from his catholicism, so there seemed to an irrational anti-Jewish undercurrent there.

When visiting my grandparents graves I also note that the Jewish graves were locked up and sealed off because of the vandalism they would receive, no other group has to do this. Speaking with older people, this has been going on for as long as anyone can remember. Even seemingly in past generations when everyone went to church in Scotland there was anti-Semitism.

Sad but true.
 
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Pilgrimer

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Hello:wave:


I think that's where some of the disagreement is coming in, on our later calendar the date celebrated for Easter falls on a different day from the 14th Nisan, the day it actually was on the calendar of the time.

But Jesus wasn't resurrected on Nisan 14, and Easter is the celebration of Jesus' resurrection. The Passover lambs were slain on the afternoon of Nisan 14 and were eaten later than night after sunset which was the beginning of Nisan 15. Jesus ate the Passover on Nisan 15.

He was resurrected three days later on Sunday and Easter is the celebration of his resurrection so it is observed on the Sunday following the Passover.

The church in the past has been dogmatic and said Easter must be celebrated on this new date, it was a major cause of conflict in the Scottish church of the 7th Century. The date of Easter also influenced other doctrines e.g where the church stood in relation to Israel and the Jews.

That's not true. The churches in the Holy Land, including the "Mother Church" at Jerualem, stated that they observed the resurrection of Jesus on the Sunday following the Passover because that was the tradition handed down to them from the Apostles.

If the church celebrates Easter on 14th Nisan it is a reminder that Jesus Christ is a Jew, he was not a Catholic or Protestant but a Jew.

Easter is the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus, why would you want to change that and make Easter about Jesus' ancestry? The "Good News" is not that Jesus was a Jew. The "Good News" is that Jesus died for our sins and was raised to life for our justification. It's his death and resurrection that are the heart and soul, the Good News, of the Gospel.


He was not a Nicean, he was a Jew. Hence why this date was blotted out. All the church tradition in the world cannot blot out that the Saviour of the world comes from Israel and is coming back to Israel, as he himself said 'salvation is of the Jews'.

"Blotted out"??? I have some two dozen different versions of the Bible and not one of them has "blotted out" anything about the lineage of Jesus, they each and every one quite clearly trace his ancestry back through the royal seed of David to Jacob, Isaac and Abraham. Can you offer some kind of evidence that anyone is "blotting out" the fact that Jesus was a Jew?

People in our modern times are free to celebrate Easter on whatever date they wish, however others are free to point out the weakness in the new date.

So far, I have not seen one single fact offered to suggest any weakness in Easter being the celebration of the ressurection of Jesus on the Sunday following the Biblical 14th day of the new moon of the spring. So if you can offer some fact or evidence to point out the weakness of the Easter Sunday observance then please do so.

Celebrating Easter specifically on the biblical date would have some advantages. Jesus as the passover lamb- a good way to share the gospel.

But Easter isn't about the Passover. Easter is about the resurrection, which occurred on the third day after Jesus ate the Passover.

Communion is about the passover, eating the body and blood of the Lamb of God.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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Simon_Templar

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That's not true. The churches in the Holy Land, including the "Mother Church" at Jerualem, stated that they observed the resurrection of Jesus on the Sunday following the Passover because that was the tradition handed down to them from the Apostles.

I would guess that what he's referring to here is that many of the celtic churches of the British Isles had a different date for celebrating easter that they calculated according to their own method. This became a point of contention when the emissaries of Rome became more involved and tried to bring the celtic Churches more into line with the rest of the Church.

This issue was 'settled' at the synod of Whitby in the 7th century. The representatives of the Celtic Churches met with the representatives of the Roman Churches to present their reasons and arguments.

They synod of Whitby was specifically for the Kingdom of North Umbria and it addressed both the method of setting the date for Easter and also differences that existed between the Celtic Liturgy and the Roman Liturgy which was followed by the rest of the continent etc.

The synod was called by the King of Northumbria. Both sides basically presented their case for why their side was correct.

Regarding the date of Easter, the Celtic side claimed that their method of calculating the date for easter had been passed down to them from John the Apostle.

In the end, the decision was to go with the method used by the rest of the Church and also to bring Celtic Liturgies more into line with the Roman liturgy.
 
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Pilgrimer

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I would guess that what he's referring to here is that many of the celtic churches of the British Isles had a different date for celebrating easter that they calculated according to their own method. This became a point of contention when the emissaries of Rome became more involved and tried to bring the celtic Churches more into line with the rest of the Church.

This issue was 'settled' at the synod of Whitby in the 7th century. The representatives of the Celtic Churches met with the representatives of the Roman Churches to present their reasons and arguments.

They synod of Whitby was specifically for the Kingdom of North Umbria and it addressed both the method of setting the date for Easter and also differences that existed between the Celtic Liturgy and the Roman Liturgy which was followed by the rest of the continent etc.

The synod was called by the King of Northumbria. Both sides basically presented their case for why their side was correct.

Regarding the date of Easter, the Celtic side claimed that their method of calculating the date for easter had been passed down to them from John the Apostle.

In the end, the decision was to go with the method used by the rest of the Church and also to bring Celtic Liturgies more into line with the Roman liturgy.

Perhaps I misunderstood. I thought lismore was saying that Easter was a "new date" for Passover as opposed to the Biblical date of Nisan 14. My point was that Easter is not the celebration of Passover but the celebration of Jesus' resurrection on the Sunday after the Passover, which by all accounts was not anything "new" but was in fact Apostolic tradition.

I'm aware of the controversy between the Metonic and the Ionan methods of calculation, but the issue wasn't whether or not to celebrate the resurrection on the Sunday following the Paschal moon, that was the common practice. The controversy was how to calculate the time of the Paschal moon. The Ionan monks had their own method but it wasn't as accurate as the Metonic cycle, which is what was adopted at the Whitby Synod. This wasn't some "new date" for Passover, as I thought lismore was suggesting, but was actually a more accurate method to calculate the Paschal moon and therefore determine the proper date for Easter than the method used by either the Jews or by the Ionans (or any of the other methods that were used for that matter which is why the Metonic cycle became the accepted norm). In fact, the Metonic cycle is so accurate that NASA used it to determine the trajectory calculations and launch window analysis for the lunar space flight missions and it can be used to accurately calculate the tides as well.


And as I pointed out in a previous post, the church has been vindicated in this decision to use the Metonic cycle for the calculation of the Paschal moon as even the Jews not long after adopted the same method to fix the Hebrew calendar and along with Christianity now use this method to calculate the dates for Jewish holidays.

But to bring this back to the original issue, the oft-repeated accusation that the Catholic Church and Constantine just willy nilly adopted some pagan holiday for the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus and imposed that date on Christendom is absoutely not true.

Easter Sunday, the celebration of the resurrection of Jesus Christ on the Sunday following the Passover, is well-attested to in Scripture and in the earliest documents of the church. There have historically been two points of contention over Easter: 1) should the resurrection of Jesus be celebrated on the Passover or on the Sunday following the Passover, and 2) what is the most accurate method for calculating Passover/Easter? In my opinion Christianity has correctly answered both those issues. The Christian Easter is not the celebration of the Passover, but of the resurrection of Jesus the Sunday after the Passover, the date of which is most accurately calculated mathematically by the Metonic Cycle.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer
 
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Arborist

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When considering all of the possible dates of the Resurrection, and following the amazing patterns of prophecies and their fulfillment that NO events in the Bible or dates are by happenstance or coincidence but are precisely calculated and designed by God even before "time" began. Consider the fact that time was altered by God on behalf of Joshua in Joshua 10:13. Or for Hezekiah in which the shadow moved backwards ten steps 2 Kings 20:11 or Isaiah 38:8. Or when the British government on September 2, 1752 decided to skip 11 days in order to coordinate the British calendar with the Gregorian calendar as declared by Pope Gregory XIII to take into account leap years (George Washington was actually born on February 11, 1732 not February 22) - were all of these taken into consideration by the Rabbis and Christian scholars in determining important dates on the various calendars. Some Biblical scholars have proposed that the actual date of the resurrection occurred on 17 Nisan the exact date that Noah's ark came to rest on Mount Ararat (Genesis 8:4) for life on earth to begin anew. This date has to be significant otherwise why would it be recorded. There is NO insignificant verse in the Bible every jot and tittle are inspired and authored by the Holy Spirit. Any thoughts?
 
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