Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
What goes against God is subjective,
a list of the sciences that are secular and the ones that are not.
i haven't provided a definition yet as i am preparing to face the criticism that will come once i do.
'we' = true believers
'secular science' = all science done outside of God, His leading, His word, led by unbelievers, nonscriptural theories (e.g. evolution, natural selection), all conclusions, research, hypothesis, et al that have no foundation in God or His Word and lead away from Him and the truth. And so on.
studying nature does not qualify science as of God as there is more to it than meets the eye.
Where has it been done? Show where, when, and how. Explicitly.it has been done,
That's right. Because it is an UNTRUE fact.you just won't accept the fact that there is evil involved in science.
Nope. They show a lack of acceptance of your specific interpretation.every comment you and your TE buddies make expose your lack of faith and belief in God.
No. He did not make it clear. If we look at the world He made (though which we will know Him), there is in fact quite a lot there that muddles it. Either He is lying in the world, He is lying in the Scripture, or He is not literal in the Scripture.but God is not silent on the origin of all things, and He made it clear evolution was not involved,
Again, you still need to show exactly and explicitly how evolution is not of Him. Forget the timescale, that can come from somewhere else. Just tell how the whole idea is evil. Again, forget the timescale. The age part comes from other branches of science. Tell how the idea of gradual change via natural selection is against God.so why are you still pursuing that which is not of God? if you look at the Bible closely, you will see how vocal He is.
Then you should have no trouble showing relevant Scripture.He may not address every situation specifically but He words His verses so that they apply to all situations. including science.
And that evidence is…?it is, i have said at least twice before in other threads that go to any hospital, tree nursery, vet's hospital and you will see the evidence for creation every day.
Which is…?you will also see the results of the fall of man
1. Nylonase, breeding.BUT you will never see any evidence for evolution.
(by the way, that evidence for creation has been recorded for the past 10,000 years +/- in all walks of life while evolution has nothing to support it)
Yes. I see the word 'but'. The word 'but' is by its very nature a limiting word. It would in this case mean the sentence is referring to what happens to those Christians who are not true during the situation Timothy described, i.e. persecution.still not talking about losing one's faith. think on this:
do you see any restraints or boundaries on those words?13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived
However, because Jesus told parables it DOES open up the field for non-literal interpretation. Other evidence indicates an allegorical Genesis.Quote:
1. True DOES NOT EQUAL literally true. Jesus told parables
i would watch your extrapolation, just because Jesus told parables does it mean genesis one is a figurative story. to think so would be wishful thinking. the Bible is quite clear--6 24 hour days. you can't get around it.
Believing He is Christ, trying to act like Him, leading others to Him, yeah. I'd say I am at least trying very hard to listen. And since we can't actually listen if we sin (a la 1 John) it's pretty much impossible to do better, because every man sins."my sheep hear my voice" if you deny genesis 1 are you really listening to His voice?
And as I showed in my thread 'undersea plants" Genesis is not exhaustive. There are things not described in it. Which means it is not complete. Which means evolution cannot be categorically ruled out.yes it does, it may not mention the word evolution but it certainly describes creation in a manner that excudes it. read gen. 1:31 and you will see it was finished in those 6 days.The Bible says nothing on the matter
I Believe God created the Universe. However, when asked for the how, I choose to believe geology, astronomy, nuclear physics, evolution, and several others instead of a creation myth. So I choose the truth God put into the world when He made it, and find the spiritual truth located in the myth.i doubt i used those exact words but if you deny creation and follow evolution, are you following God or man? genesis says differently than darwin's adjusted theory which do you choose?
Pretty sure it was the Chinese.i wouldn't bet the farm on that as we do not know who was first to use writing.
Yes. Yes I am. Just like evolution, germ theory, atomic theory, and so on. All these ideas fit with 'secular science' (if I understand it correctly, see the end of my post). None of them have any mention (and therefore basis) in Scripture, all were proposed by unbelievers. Though none of them lead us either towards or away from God.as for the rest please clarify: are you saying writing is a secular invention?
if so, then you would be leading to the pointi have been making concerning secular science which you all ignore and deny is possible.
'secular science' = all science done outside of God, His leading, His word, led by unbelievers, nonscriptural theories (e.g. evolution, natural selection), all conclusions, research, hypothesis, et al that have no foundation in God or His Word and lead away from Him and the truth. And so on.
That's right. Because it is an UNTRUE fact.
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
They show a lack of acceptance of your specific interpretation
Either He is lying in the world, He is lying in the Scripture, or He is not literal in the Scripture
Then you should have no trouble showing relevant Scripture
Again, you still need to show exactly and explicitly how evolution is not of Him.
And that evidence is ?
You have been told by me at least once that there is evidence for evolution, and I have named 2 of the myriad evidences
It would in this case mean the sentence is referring to what happens to those Christians who are not true during the situation Timothy described
However, because Jesus told parables it DOES open up the field for non-literal interpretation. Other evidence indicates an allegorical Genesis
Believing He is Christ, trying to act like Him, leading others to Him, yeah. I'd say I am at least trying very hard to listen
So, according to this, any particular bit of science can only be Christian science if:
That is just an exhortation not to be lead astray. I don't see how that makes me call God a liar. Which I do not.the Bible says:
so i guess you are calling God a liar.1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
Nope, it is the truth. I do not accept your specific interpretation.that is your escape route to avoid the truth.
Yep, it IS clear. It just depends on what you want to be clear. If you want the Bible and the Bible alone to be clear, one can deny and rail against anything. If one wants all creation to be true, well then it gets different.none of the above, it means you are following that which leads you from God as He is not the author of confusion. everything is quite clear, it is only through being deceived that you think things are muddled.
This could go either way. Both the idea that Genesis is literal and that it is not are manmade. I would go and ask the Jews. On the other hand, the spiritual lessons of both are the same , one just adds a literal meaning.'in all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths' provs. 3:5-6
So if we believe Jesus is God we'll follow Him and keep His commandments. Which are to believe in and love Him and treat our neighbor as our self. Gotcha. So, where does a literal Genesis fit into that?'4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice' john 10:4
'15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do;' 1 peter 1:15
1 peter 13-16 said:Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
So among what we should think on are things that are true, right, excellent, and lovely. Like science. Gotcha.'8Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirableif anything is excellent or praiseworthythink about such things' phil. 4:8
I honestly have no idea how this relates to science.'15Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always try to be kind to each other and to everyone else' 1 thess. 5:15
" righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness." Which are what you get from following Christ. Which, as I have mentioned before, has no indication of a literal Genesis anywhere.'11But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness.' 1 tim. 6:11
That does not say that everything is fixed and unchanging after creation is done. Not one bit.already been done. read all the creation related verses in the bible.
Everything living in the way that best fits it fits with the idea of natural selection just as well as with the idea of creation.everything proceeds as they were created to do.
Then explain to me exactly how what I have named is not evidence.there is no evidence for evolution, it is all inferred ,conjecture or assumed.
Rote denial doesn't get anyone anywhere. Tell me how Timothy talking about what will happen to false Christians during persecution relates to true Christians during non-persecution.no you are wrong. not even close.
In other words show reasons why Genesis could be allegorical.prove it. not the Jesus part but the other evidence.
They do not lead people away from God. Neither do they lead them towards God. They say nothing on the matter. It does not lead people astray. As a matter of fact, I have yet to meet an atheist who has become an atheist because of evolution. Furthermore, according to your definition, everything is secular science. EVERYTHING. So even you follow it.then why do you listen to secular science, darwin and others who are not of God and leading people astray?
I just want to make sure I understand how it works before I confront you with the magnitude of your folly. Because "Christian science" encompasses things such as a flat earth, a stationary earth, a moving sun, and several other things which are all wrong as can be. Verses will be forthcoming upon request.i will let you think on it for awhile as i do not want this to be the point thattakes everything off topic.
So we are supposed to reject evil desires (aka sin) and act like Jesus. Which does not require a literal Genesis.
Gotcha. So, where does a literal Genesis fit into that?
So among what we should think on are things that are true, right, excellent, and lovely. Like science. Gotcha.
That is just an exhortation not to be lead astray. I don't see how that makes me call God a liar. Which I do not.
Quote:
So we are supposed to reject evil desires (aka sin) and act like Jesus. Which does not require a literal Genesis.
Jesus believed in a literal genesis. He was there. ae you greater than Him?
I do NOT call Him a liar. A liar tells lies. Lies are completely untrue. God does not lie. God tells stories. God tells parables. God uses allegory. God conveys a spiritual truth using words. God does NOT lie, and I do not say He does. There is a HUGE difference between disbelieving something and believing something is not literal. Furthermore, stating that I call God a liar doesn't answer where it says a literal Genesis is necessary for salvation.Quote:
Gotcha. So, where does a literal Genesis fit into that?
very simple, you call the very God whom you say you love and follow a liar. 1 cor. 13 tells us that 'love believes all things' yet i haven't heard one person here who is not a creationist say they believe all of God's word.
Nope nope nope. I was using it as an example.no. another excuse to justify being led astray.
Oh really. So, the idea that every organism has adapted to live the best in its environment doesn't fit with the idea that organisms live best in their environments?Everything living in the way that best fits it fits with the idea of natural selection just as well as with the idea of creation]
you certainly love fooling yourself.
No. I look at the very narrow ideas presented and show their weaknesses.i think those serve as enough of an example of how you treat honest posting. you look for any excuse or avenue to avoid facing the truth and the reality.
The verses you pulled from 1 Thessalonians are telling you what to do when someone slights you (or, more accurately what NOT to do.) That has nothing to do with whether or not science is accurate. And I would say that you seem to have missed some of the lessons, like not judging others' salvation, not imposing limits on God, etc.you even ignore scripture and miss the lessons being taught by them. 1 thess. quoted above in a previous point is ap[rime example. if you can't see it then you better re-evaluate your beliefs and where you stand with God.
I would honestly say that the evil one is more likely to be lurking among doctrines that ADD things to the salvation requirement and take things literally that shouldn't be. I do not add evolution to the Bible, nor do I say that one must accept evolution to be saved despite the lack of references to it in the Bible (as opposed to, say, a literal Genesis). I do not call God a liar, I recognize His use of allegory. There is a huge difference.also the following is a good example:
Quote:
That is just an exhortation not to be lead astray. I don't see how that makes me call God a liar. Which I do not.
you deny the evil one's presence, influence and other evil workings which is contrary to what God teaches then you call God a liar. same with adding evolution, changing passages to allegoricl when they are not and so on
buti didn't think you would be honest, i hoped you would have been but it seems you are just playing a game and are not being serious or wanting an honest discussion.
When did Jesus mention Adam and Eve, a six day creation or a global flood?Jesus believed in a literal genesis. He was there. ae you greater than Him?
That is an interesting claim. Let's see,very simple, you call the very God whom you say you love and follow a liar. 1 cor. 13 tells us that 'love believes all things' yet i haven't heard one person here who is not a creationist say they believe all of God's word.
Yes. Yes I do. As a matter of fact, not only do I believe it happened then, I believe His words to do it in memory of Him were a command and that the divine power of God does this every Sunday during the Mass.Assyrian said:metherion, do you believe Jesus when he said the bread was his flesh?
When did Jesus mention Adam and Eve, a six day creation or a global flood?
That is an interesting claim. Let's see,
metherion, do you believe Jesus when he said the bread was his flesh?
architect, what about you, do you believe Jesus turned the bread being his own flesh?
Archie likes to accuse TE of not believing God's word, dismissing the fact that quite a lot of what God says is figurative and metaphorical, if we don't take Genesis literally, the way he does, we do not believe God's word. I thought there was a wonderful irony in archie bringing this up in a conversation with metherion, whose icon say Catholic, who I figured would take things literally that archie actually denies.If Jesus said, "I thirst" and it was literal, does that mean that all statements he made were literal? If not, then why is your example any more helpful? As you well know, I have never found a fully satisfying explanation for the fact that the quote you use does not contain language like "his bread is LIKE my body." Usually such language does exist, but not in the case of the Genesis citations that Jesus made.
Jesus taught the crowds in parables. When Jesus was talking about how God created male and female, He was teaching to the crowds. On the other hand, on Passover He was talking to His apostles, who usually got the full truth. On the Cross, He was talking to a Roman solider conveying a need. Neither of those is a candidate for parable.
Metherion
Archie likes to accuse TE of not believing God's word, dismissing the fact that quite a lot of what God says is figurative and metaphorical, if we don't take Genesis literally, the way he does, we do not believe God's word. I thought there was a wonderful irony in archie bringing this up in a conversation with metherion, whose icon say Catholic, who I figured would take things literally that archie actually denies.
(Thanks metherion)
In answer to your point about why Jesus did not use language indicating this statement is figurative, I think the bible does that a lot less than you realise. Jesus was so at home with figurative language, his conversation just ran naturally into metaphor without any warning, lots of his parable were told without labels, if you read the text it is often the gospel writer who tells us they were parables, not Jesus. The OT is very similar allegories and metaphors are not always announced, look at the parable of the trees in Judges or Ezek 16.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?