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Darwinism is a Pseudo-Science (2)

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Davian

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We don&#8217;t <snip>
When an analogy fails, don't simply repeat it.
If you can show that those values must be as they are for a reason then by all means present it. I am sure Science would applaud you. As it stands there is no reason why they could not have been different. Unless you can give a reason why they would by necessity be the way they are you are begging the question.
Failure to shift the burden of evidence.
So? We don't need other universes to compare.
Yes, if you want to claim tunable "tuning" is falsifiable.
You are begging the question.

George Ellis: &#8220;Physicists&#8217; hope has always been that the laws of nature are inevitable &#8211; that things are the way they are because there is no other way they might have been&#8212;but we have been unable to show this is true. Other options exist, too. The universe might be pure happenstance&#8212;it just turned out that way. Or things might in some sense be meant to be the way they are&#8212;purpose or intent somehow underlies existence.&#8221;
He disagrees with you.
Stephen Hawking has likewise concluded, on the basis of his work in string theory, that the constants and quantities did not have to be the way they are. He writes, &#8220;&#8230;[string theory] allows a vast landscape of possible universes&#8230;&#8221;
Stephen Hawking, Cosmology from the Top Down, 2003
String theory is unfalsifiable.
Paul Davies writes, &#8220;&#8230;the physical universe does not have to be the way it is: it could have been otherwise.&#8221;

Paul Davies, The Mind of God, 1992, p. 169
I am not making the claim of necessity. Read the passage in context.
It seems that the experts think that they could have been.
But we lack evidence either way. Correct?
No, I said that actual design is an opinion. The appearance is based on the fact that the fine tuned values appear to be an intent of an agent for a purpose. There is a consensus within the scientific fields studying this phenomena agree that there is an appearance of intent of an agent for a purpose.
Opinion, as you have conceded. Your words from Post #625 "The "appearance" of design which some claim is not actual design is based on only opinion and no testing or observation has been done to determine the conclusion. The appearance of design or actual design conclusions are not based on scientific data or tested by scientific methodology. It is opinion."
Do your own research. I've presented what the experts in the field claim about that, you can take it or leave it but then you would have to show why you don't agree and of course have some counter to show them wrong.
I agree with them. The appearance of design is an illusion.

No, I did no such thing. I said that I do not have the education or skills to observe, experiment, or test but I can comprehend what those who are provide.
No, you are cherry-picking what you want from the opinions that run counter to the consensus.

No they confirm fine tuning and the appearance of design which is exactly what I claimed.
Your words: "The "appearance" of design which some claim is not actual design is based on only opinion and no testing or observation has been done to determine the conclusion. The appearance of design or actual design conclusions are not based on scientific data or tested by scientific methodology. It is opinion. "

No, actually you are showing your ignorance on the subject and projecting. ;)
Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.:)
 
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EternalDragon

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What is it with the idea that there has to be an afterlife in order for life to have meaning?

I agree. Apes (animals) don't require an afterlife or meaning.

Although according to the Bible, humans were created to not
die and have a perpetual life here.
 
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Loudmouth

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I agree. Apes (animals) don't require an afterlife or meaning.

Why do humans require an afterlife in order for life to have a meaning?

Although according to the Bible, humans were created to not
die and have a perpetual life here.

We are talking about reality, not what books say.
 
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bhsmte

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What is our purpose or meaning here then? To just trudge into the
future?

Trudge into the future?

Is that the best you can do, when it comes to coming up with how one can determine their own personal purpose and meaning to life?
 
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Mainframes

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What is our purpose or meaning here then? To just trudge into the
future?

Perhaps you can give your own life meaning instead of needing someone, or a 2000 year old book, to hand it to you.....?

Why is it that some people simply cannot accept that we just 'are' and that there is not cosmic plan, destination or meaning....

I give myself meaning by bettering myself and others around me and enjoying my life without (hopefully) holding anyone elses back, treating others how I would wish to be treated.

Not that hard really.....
 
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DogmaHunter

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What is our purpose or meaning here then?

Why do you hit your wife?

See what I did there?

Before you can ask what the purpose of something is, you should try to establish that there even is purpose to begin with.

Your question skips over that step. It is a loaded question.
 
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EternalDragon

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Perhaps you can give your own life meaning instead of needing someone, or a 2000 year old book, to hand it to you.....?

Why is it that some people simply cannot accept that we just 'are' and that there is not cosmic plan, destination or meaning....

I give myself meaning by bettering myself and others around me and enjoying my life without (hopefully) holding anyone elses back, treating others how I would wish to be treated.

Not that hard really.....

You are following God's advice by doing that and baring witness
that his word is true.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 2:14-16


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
 
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Oncedeceived

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False. You say that your conclusions are the same as the majority of scientists. I can find you saying that many, many times.

Go for it. I have always maintained that while scientists agree to fine tuning of the universe that gives the appearance of design they do not all agree that this appearance is due to actual design.


Why does it appear that way?

I've answered this. That is the question.

You expect everyone else to present evidence while you present none? Don't you have to present evidence as well?

Fine tuning is the evidence. In fact, Christopher Hitches in a video production of debates with Douglas James Wilson said:

Hitchens: At some point, certainly, we are all asked which is the best argument you come up against from the other side. I think every one of us picks the fine-tuning one as the most intriguing.
Wilson: The Goldilocks idea. Yeah, okay.
Hitchens: Yeah. The fine-tuning, that one degree, well, one degree, one hair different of nothing—that even though it doesn’t prove design, doesn’t prove a Designer, [the fine-tuning] could have all happened without [God]— You have to spend time thinking about it, working on it. It’s not a trivial [argument]. We all say that.​
Now Hitchens didn't agree that it proved design or a designer (I don't claim it proves it either but rarely does Science Prove anything.) but it is evidence for it and it is not trivial. I respect him for accepting the argument as evidence even if he felt it needed an explanation that would show that it could have all happened without God. I can respect that. It shows that he didn't bury his head in the sand or put his fingers in his ears and shake his head while saying blah blah blah.

You have a tendency to view anything that has anything to say about God as not evidence. Evidence consists of facts and those facts are not subjective to opinion or theories. It is a fact that the universe is fine tuned for life. That is evidence. Evidence of what? That is the question. Is it evidence for Design as it appears or is it due to the multiverse as is being proposed? The evidence can be supportive of Design. The appearance could be simply a product of a multitude of universe 10^500 universes according to some string theorists; or Design. Denying that it is evidence shows more a biased and opinionated mindset than a scientific one.


No, it isn't, as even you have admitted on several occasions. Fine tuning is not evidence of design. It is only evidence that life needs a narrow range of constants.

I have not admitted that fine tuning is not evidence for design. That is ridiculous. It is evidence for design as it supports that design is possible. That life needs a narrow range of constants is a fact, that the universe meets that range to such a precise way is not trivial. To just accept it without reason is not keeping with scientific progress, which is why many scientists are looking at the multiverse.
 
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Loudmouth

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Go for it. I have always maintained that while scientists agree to fine tuning of the universe that gives the appearance of design they do not all agree that this appearance is due to actual design.

Just remember you said that.

Fine tuning is the evidence.

And around we go . . .

You have already admitted that fine tuning is not evidence of design.

You have a tendency to view anything that has anything to say about God as not evidence. Evidence consists of facts and those facts are not subjective to opinion or theories. It is a fact that the universe is fine tuned for life. That is evidence.

Once again, you make up your own definitions for words.

Evidence: "the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid."

That's the definition. Look at the last bit. Does fine tuning indicate whether or not the universe is designed? No, it doesn't. Therefore, it is not evidence of design.

If it does not indicate one idea over another, then it is a fact, not evidence.

It is evidence for design as it supports that design is possible.

No, it isn't. That is not the definition of evidence.
 
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PsychoSarah

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The objective evidence of astrophysicists/cosmologists/physicists trump your subjective one.

It Christian theology, the universe is suppose to look designed. That is the point.


And what confuses me is that you are an intelligent girl and you are not "getting" that fine tuning is real and made by observations of the scientists that are claiming that fine tuning is real. They also claim it appears designed. Those are the claims that I am using. I am using them as they stand.

They make "subjective" conclusions based on the "objective" evidence of the fine tuning which is saying that they hold opinions about the facts. Their own opinions are based on their own worldviews rather than any evidence that brings them to that conclusion. Not unlike what Richard Dawkins does with the ToE. His opinions do not come from the ToE that he endorses. You don't agree with his opinions but you agree with ToE. Do you see that?

Yes, but their comments on the universe appearing designed aren't objective evidence. Which is why I don't understand why you act as if they are.

Your point being what exactly? I have already told you the appearance of design isn't evidence for actual design, so it hardly matters if everyone thinks it looks designed. Plus, I don't think the universe looks designed, and I am not alone in that opinion, so the universe "appearing" designed is clearly subjective.

Some of your best sources argue AGAINST FINE TUNING. Why ever would I be swayed to consider the universe fine tuned by sources from physicists who DISAGREE with that position? Yes, you do have professionals on your side, but obviously not all of them. I cannot fathom why you post sources so frequently that attack your position.

Objective fact of what? That the physics we do not fully understand generally work a certain way? That the life that developed works with those physics? Because this isn't evidence for fine tuning of the universe for life, more like life was tuned to work with the universe. Something which could certainly occur without a deity actively helping. And yes, I do disagree with Dawkins on many levels, and I disagree with him on many subjective components. The "fine-tuning conclusion" of some of those physicists is also subjective, so what is the flaw in my disagreement?
 
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Oncedeceived

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A small percentage?

So we have gone from none to a small percentage?

When did I say none?


All the phyla should be in the Cambrian if evolution is true. Also, you have never shown that these precursors did not exist as you claim.

So not only do you dismiss fine tuning but the fact that life suddenly appearing in the fossil record containing all phyla alive today plus with complex eyes and brains holds no merit in your mind? It is not what was expected by Darwin or any evolutionary prediction. In fact, the fact that life's diversity appears in the fossil record with complex eyes and brains is not in line with evolution at all if there were no ancestral life forms from which all this came about. This just happens to be the case.

So in comes Punctuated Equilibrium to the rescue. The only problem is that it doesn't eliminate the problem of no ancestral forms containing the necessary complex eyes and brains in the fossil record.

To show you that this is a problem I will present a paper in which Professor Charles Marshall suggests a cause of it all.
Animal Interaction Behind Cambrian Explosion? 'Missing' Ancestors Of Today's Animals May Not Be Missing After All -- ScienceDaily

The Cambrian Explosion was unique, Marshall said, because, though there have been mass extinctions — such as that of the dinosaurs — and recoveries since, there has never been another event as sweeping as that which occurred in the Cambrian seas 500 million years ago. It was during that time when all the modern phyla of animals first arose. Phyla are major classifications of life that include broad groups of creatures. The phylum Chordata, for example, includes all vertebrates, such as mammals, reptiles, amphibians, and birds.


Prior to the Cambrian Explosion, life on land was unknown and life in the sea was made up of soft-bodied multicellular creatures that strained food from the seawater around them or fed on mats of bacteria on the ocean floor. Though these animals virtually disappeared at the beginning of the Cambrian, the ancestors of the new modern phyla that replaced them haven’t been found.




I must have missed the part where they searched the entire fossil record across the world and did not find any precursors. Can you point me to that paper?

In over 150 years they have not found any. They have found preCambrian fossils including larvae but nothing that is ancestral to the forms found in the Cambrian as shown in the paper above. Scientists once thought that the conditions were not right for fossilization but then they found fossils and then it was that the forms were too small or soft and then microscopic forms were found as well as soft bodied.


Again, please show that there were no precursors. Please show that all of the species from the Precambrian were preserved, and that we have searched every single inch of fossil bearing strata. Until you do, you have no place stating that they don't exist.

So you want me to believe they are there even though there is no evidence for them? Do you know what Double standard means?

A double standard is the application of different sets of principles for similar situations.[1] A double standard may take the form of an instance in which certain concepts (often, for example, a word, phrase, social norm, or rule) are perceived as acceptable to be applied by one group of people, but are considered unacceptable—taboo—when applied by another group.

Also, there are no sharks the Cambrian. There are no lizards, mammals, birds, bony fish, turtles, frogs, salamanders . . . entire groups of life are completely absent from the Cambrian. Your claim that all complexity was present is an absolute misrepresentation of the evidence.

The phyla are there.


Can you disprove that undetectinble pink fairies are involved in gravity?

You always fall back into this form of argumentation when you have no real argument to give. It is very telling.


Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If all you have is a God of the Gaps, then you really don't have an argument. You notice that you refuse to even discuss the mechanisms of design or any evidence for it. Rather, you expect everyone else to disprove design. Cosmic teapot.

So again, a double standard. You don't have the evidence but you expect me and others to accept it anyway.

Fine tuning is not a God of the Gaps situation. It is what we know that points to God.

You have never been inside of a car or a house? Do you think there are changes that can be scientifically measure that can be used to detect a human interacting with a house or car?

Like you said we are part of the natural world. However, that being admitted we are still not "part" of the created house, car or t.v.. You will not find a "part" of us in the created system.


Where is the evidence that a designer is responsible for the constants in our universe?

The fine tuning evidence supports design which supports a designer.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Yes, but their comments on the universe appearing designed aren't objective evidence. Which is why I don't understand why you act as if they are.

Do a majority of scientists feel the fine tuning of the universe appears as if it were set by intent by an agent for a purpose? The answer is yes. You can say it is a widely held opinion but that opinion is based on the recognition of what a designed universe would look like. A designed universe would look like it was designed very precisely to allow for life to exist. So while it is opinion about the appearance of design, it is based on the "fact" that the universe is like that.

Your point being what exactly? I have already told you the appearance of design isn't evidence for actual design, so it hardly matters if everyone thinks it looks designed. Plus, I don't think the universe looks designed, and I am not alone in that opinion, so the universe "appearing" designed is clearly subjective.

If design is actual, then the appearance of that design would indeed be evidence for it. So it is illogical to say that the appearance of design isn't evidence for design. The best or logical disclaimer possible is that the evidence of fine tuning which gives the appearance of design only gives that appearance due to some other cause. It is perfectly logical and reasonable to determine that when something is designed that it would probably look that way. So your counter argument is illogical and without reason.

I don't give much credence to your opinion that the universe doesn't look designed to you as you haven't the education nor have you done the research that has lead the scientists in this field to claim it does.

Some of your best sources argue AGAINST FINE TUNING.

That is completely and totally false. All the sources I have included do not argue against fine tuning. You are either confused by their positions against actual design or you are just incorrect.

Why ever would I be swayed to consider the universe fine tuned by sources from physicists who DISAGREE with that position?

They disagree that design is a valid explanation for various reasons. They however support the position of fine tuning and the appearance of design which I have repeated so many times that it is becoming a mantra at this point. You know what I am saying, why do you insist on twisting it around?
Yes, you do have professionals on your side, but obviously not all of them. I cannot fathom why you post sources so frequently that attack your position.

Because they don't. The sources do just what I am claiming. They are claiming that the universe is fine tuned for life and that it appears designed. They don't "attack" design. They may disagree but it hardly amounts to attacking or destroying it as you claim.

Objective fact of what? That the physics we do not fully understand generally work a certain way? That the life that developed works with those physics? Because this isn't evidence for fine tuning of the universe for life, more like life was tuned to work with the universe.

Just any ol' physics won't do and that is the issue. It isn't as if we as life evolved just because we evolved to fit into the universe. No life would be possible if the physics were not as they are. No life or the universe itself would exist.

Something which could certainly occur without a deity actively helping. And yes, I do disagree with Dawkins on many levels, and I disagree with him on many subjective components. The "fine-tuning conclusion" of some of those physicists is also subjective, so what is the flaw in my disagreement?

I guess that depends on what you mean by "fine tuning conclusion". The fine tuning is not in dispute. Do you think it is?
 
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PsychoSarah

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Conclusion: one of use is having an issue understanding the arguments of the other. Or both of us. I'm going to seek out the sources you posted to see if I am off, if I am, I apologize for the confusion. If I am not, I'll point out where they disagree with you so you don't use those sources again
 
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Davian

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Do a majority of scientists feel the fine tuning of the universe appears as if it were set by intent by an agent for a purpose? The answer is yes. You can say it is a widely held opinion but that opinion is based on the recognition of what a designed universe would look like. A designed universe would look like it was designed very precisely to allow for life to exist. So while it is opinion about the appearance of design, it is based on the "fact" that the universe is like that.

Would a universe that wasn't designed, but also had the values conducive to life as we know it, look designed to you? Yes or no?
 
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Mainframes

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You are following God's advice by doing that and baring witness
that his word is true.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Romans 2:14-16


14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

I'm not following god's anything. I am displaying what people would call empathy.
 
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Oncedeceived

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Would a universe that wasn't designed, but also had the values conducive to life as we know it, look designed to you? Yes or no?

A yes or no answer is impossible.

1. The universe can't be observed without the aid of scientific methods. I do not "see" or can the universe "look" any way to me personally. I understand and comprehend what those who have observed the universe using scientific methods claim. The universe has values that are measured and tested and peer reviewed which finding show that the universe is fine tuned for the existence of life. Based on these findings these scientists claim these settings appear as if they were "fixed" that the appearance of design is overwhelming. I am convinced by their expertise that they are providing accurate information and have a reasoned and logical reason to claim this.

2. Having the appearance of design must have a cause. It either is caused by design as it appears or it must have another cause. The appearance of design is due to the values conducive to life as we know it and how they appear to have been set there for the purpose of life to exist.
 
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PsychoSarah

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A yes or no answer is impossible.

1. The universe can't be observed without the aid of scientific methods. I do not "see" or can the universe "look" any way to me personally. I understand and comprehend what those who have observed the universe using scientific methods claim. The universe has values that are measured and tested and peer reviewed which finding show that the universe is fine tuned for the existence of life. Based on these findings these scientists claim these settings appear as if they were "fixed" that the appearance of design is overwhelming. I am convinced by their expertise that they are providing accurate information and have a reasoned and logical reason to claim this.

2. Having the appearance of design must have a cause. It either is caused by design as it appears or it must have another cause. The appearance of design is due to the values conducive to life as we know it and how they appear to have been set there for the purpose of life to exist.

1. Never underestimate the capacity to be wrong. One can certainly observe things in non scientific ways. Most of us don't even notice how much bias and misinformation comes out of our mouths and leeches into our actions.

2. Sure, our mental tendency to perceive stuff in nature as designed, even if it isn't. Just like we see faces in pretty much anything that could come remotely close to having some resemblance to the structure of a face.
 
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Davian

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A yes or no answer is impossible.
Hence your position is unfalsifiable. You lack sufficient data to conclude design, but by all appearances, you had reached the "designed" conclusion long before you had looked for any data, and you are simply cherry-picking science to prop up your beliefs.
 
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Davian

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1. Never underestimate the capacity to be wrong. One can certainly observe things in non scientific ways. Most of us don't even notice how much bias and misinformation comes out of our mouths and leeches into our actions.

2. Sure, our mental tendency to perceive stuff in nature as designed, even if it isn't. Just like we see faces in pretty much anything that could come remotely close to having some resemblance to the structure of a face.

It is my understanding that Oncedeceived is arguing from the position that she cannot be wrong.
 
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