DaRev: Tidbits from my husband

[PreachersWife2004]

1. To receive a call to teach at the Lutheran school associated with the Lutheran church is as divine a call as being called to serve as the pastor. We consider all calls such as this to be divine calls, that is, led by God.

2. So you readily admit that the power isn't in the words, but in the one using them.

3. Of course my son was baptized in the trinity. I wanted him baptized immediately, that's why I didn't wait for a church baptism. I'm not one to wait around and "plan" something like a baptism. My other two children were baptized in the hospital as well, by their father. My oldest was "rebaptized" two weeks later in church because I didn't know about ratifications at that time and it never occured to me to tell the pastor that he had already been baptized. My other two sons have received ratifications in the church two weeks after their baptisms.

4. Yes, Luther did not want to leave the Catholic church, he wanted them to change their ways. But I still think he would roll in his grave to hear what some of the practices of the LCMS are that go in direct contrast to his very own writings.

5. And where exactly does the WORD say who gets the power? If you follow the Catholic version where Peter is the first "called" worker, then you must believe what Catholics believe in that Martin Luther broke that line when he left the Catholic Church. I, on the other hand, tend to believe that Jesus gave the Great Commission to ALL believers, not just a select few.

 

[DaRev]

1. To receive a call to teach at the Lutheran school associated with the Lutheran church is as divine a call as being called to serve as the pastor. We consider all calls such as this to be divine calls, that is, led by God.

And this is where the WELS parts from the LCMS. Principals and teachers are not ordained clergy and thus do not have the authority given by Christ to the pastoral office.

2. So you readily admit that the power isn't in the words, but in the one using them.

I never said that. You haven't read anything I've posted, have you?

3. Of course my son was baptized in the trinity. I wanted him baptized immediately, that's why I didn't wait for a church baptism. I'm not one to wait around and "plan" something like a baptism. My other two children were baptized in the hospital as well, by their father. My oldest was "rebaptized" two weeks later in church because I didn't know about ratifications at that time and it never occured to me to tell the pastor that he had already been baptized. My other two sons have received ratifications in the church two weeks after their baptisms.

But why wouldn't you want your children baptized in the Church? That sounds very ELCAish to me.

4. Yes, Luther did not want to leave the Catholic church, he wanted them to change their ways. But I still think he would roll in his grave to hear what some of the practices of the LCMS are that go in direct contrast to his very own writings.

What teachings of the LCMS go against the Confessions of the Church? Your description of the administration of the sacrament in the WELS goes against the very words of the Augsburg Confession and the Formula of Concord. It's the WELS, as described by you, that is not in line with Confessional Lutheranism.

5. And where exactly does the WORD say who gets the power? If you follow the Catholic version where Peter is the first "called" worker, then you must believe what Catholics believe in that Martin Luther broke that line when he left the Catholic Church. I, on the other hand, tend to believe that Jesus gave the Great Commission to ALL believers, not just a select few.

You are confusing the words "power" and "authority." Two different things.

Martin Luther didn't leave the Catholic Church. The Church of Rome excommunicated him, but he remained catholic in his teachings and beliefs up to the day he died.

The "Great Commission" was given to the Church to be administered by the one whom the church calls to fulfill those responsibilities. This is both Biblical and Confessional. What you are describing is more in line with the ELCA than what I have always understood to be the teachings of the Wisconsin Synod. The Office of the Public Ministry and the Priesthood of All Believers are two completely different things.

 

[porterross]

What if the principal or teacher is a woman?
Surely that would negate the argument that the power is in the Word by WELS standards, wouldn't it?

 

[DaRev]

What if the principal or teacher is a woman?
Surely that would negate the argument that the power is in the Word by WELS standards, wouldn't it?

From what I have always understood, theWisconsin Synod does not call female principals. All are male. They have only in recent years called female teachers to their schools.

 

[dinkime]

From what I have always understood, theWisconsin Synod does not call female principals. All are male. They have only in recent years called female teachers to their schools.

only in RECENT years, what is recent for you?

our pastor's wife was a called teacher in a WELS school close to 30 years ago and she was no where near a "pioneer" in that field

 

[DaRev]

only in RECENT years, what is recent for you?

our pastor's wife was a called teacher in a WELS school close to 30 years ago and she was no where near a "pioneer" in that field

I know that at one time the WELS had only male teachers in their schools. Obviously they have allowed a certain level of women's suffrage in the past 30-35 years or so.

 

[dinkime]

I pray that I will always have a pastor and synod who can look to the Word for the Truth

 

[porterross]

If a poster entitles a thread using another's name and they respond with doctrinal defense of their position it is condescending?

 

[LilLamb219]

Stick to the facts and not the attacks please.

Presenting your beliefs without putting down what the other side believes will go a lot further.

 

[porterross]

I am trying to grasp this from the WELS perspective, so I'll repeat my question as it seems to have been lost:

If women are indeed divinely called to teach, why does the belief that the power of the words not also apply to them in the matter of consecrating the elements?

Also, if the power is in the Word, why is it necessary or even applicable that anyone needs to be called to teach Biblical and non-Biblical school subjects and are these women allowed to teach male children?

I'm truly learning things I was not aware of about the WELS.

 

[Jim47]

I am trying to grasp this from the WELS perspective, so I'll repeat my question as it seems to have been lost:

If women are indeed divinely called to teach, why does the belief that the power of the words not also apply to them in the matter of consecrating the elements?

Also, if the power is in the Word, why is it necessary or even applicable that anyone needs to be called to teach Biblical and non-Biblical school subjects and are these women allowed to teach male children?

I'm truly learning things I was not aware of about the WELS.

You woud do well to go to WELS Q&A forum for a complete answer, but I'll do my best.

Teachings is something that men and wpmen can do. Women have the restriction that they can not have authority over a man, but they can teach children. Don't you as a Mother teach your daughter? The same principle applies to women called to teach in a WELS school.

As for this:

Also, if the power is in the Word, why is it necessary or even applicable that anyone needs to be called to teach Biblical and non-Biblical school subjects and are these women allowed to teach male children

WE call people who have been thouroughly trained in The Word. The idea of a Christian school is that they get the benefit of Christian training and perspective in everything. If we didn't call trained worked then we would have tp put jobs in the market just like a public school would and what would be the purpose of having a Christian school?

 

[DaRev]

You woud do well to go to WELS Q&A forum for a complete answer, but I'll do my best.

Teachings is something that men and wpmen can do. Women have the restriction that they can not have authority over a man, but they can teach children. Don't you as a Mother teach your daughter? The same principle applies to women called to teach in a WELS school.

As for this:

WE call people who have been thouroughly trained in The Word. The idea of a Christian school is that they get the benefit of Christian training and perspective in everything. If we didn't call trained worked then we would have tp put jobs in the market just like a public school would and what would be the purpose of having a Christian school?

But that doesn't answer her question.

 

[Jim47]

But that doesn't answer her question.

Maybe you should let her decide that, or are you speaking for everyone here now?

 

[DaRev]

Maybe you should let her decide that, or are you speaking for everyone here now?

That's it. I'm done.

 

[porterross]

If you really agreed with this then what is the basis for your argument?

Obviously you believe it comes down to one who has been ordained as a minister and not The Lord's word.

The Lutheran confessions are clear on this matter and it leads to my question, which still has not been answered given the logic presented here.

To clarify what a few seem to be misunderstand...

WELS does not believe that ordination is commanded by scripture.

But WELS pastors are ordained ministers.

You woud do well to go to WELS Q&A forum for a complete answer, but I'll do my best.

Tried that. It was very vague and a tad misleading given what I've learned here today. I'm trying to decide which source is more correct from the WELS perspective.

Teachings is something that men and wpmen can do. Women have the restriction that they can not have authority over a man, but they can teach children. Don't you as a Mother teach your daughter? The same principle applies to women called to teach in a WELS school.

As for this:

WE call people who have been thouroughly trained in The Word. The idea of a Christian school is that they get the benefit of Christian training and perspective in everything. If we didn't call trained worked then we would have tp put jobs in the market just like a public school would and what would be the purpose of having a Christian school?

OK, given that, if the female teachers are thoroughly trained in the Word and the authority and power in the consecration comes from and through the Word and not the one administering it, why are women not allowed to administer it?

Do you see the problem I'm having relating the logic presented here as it relates to the Lutheran confessions and Scripture?

The Lutheran confessions are fully supported by Scripture so how does the WELS justify countering it in the matter of ordination and the Lord's Supper?

 

[Jim47]

The Lutheran confessions are clear on this matter and it leads to my question, which still has not been answered given the logic presented here.













Tried that. It was very vague and a tad misleading given what I've learned here today. I'm trying to decide which source is more correct from the WELS perspective.






OK, given that, if the female teachers are thoroughly trained in the Word and the authority and power in the consecration comes from and through the Word and not the one administering it, why are women not allowed to administer it?

Do you see the problem I'm having relating the logic presented here as it relates to the Lutheran confessions and Scripture?

The Lutheran confessions are fully supported by Scripture so how does the WELS justify countering it in the matter of ordination and the Lord's Supper?

Women can not have authority over men. Women can not recieve a call to work with authority over men. Ministering to a man would mean that a woman would have to have authoroty over a man. Its just not scriptural. Was that answer better? I liked my first answer better

 

[porterross]

Neither of the answers address my question, though. I agree that women are not to exercise authority over men in the church.

The argument presented here by the OP is that ordination is not necessary for the consecration of the elements due to the authority and power of the words of institution themselves. IF that is what the WELS holds to, why would gender matter at the altar?

 

[dinkime]

she never said it had to do with the consecration -- i am sure her husband, as pastor, consecrated the elements before the church before administering to anyone or having the elements administered to himself and his wife -- she wondered why it was wrong it have an elder administer it to her so she could commune with her husband (who as a pastor with no assistant pastor has communion given to him by an elder)

 

[PreachersWife2004]

When did this suddenly become about women?

In the spirit of things, though...WELS does have a female principal. Only one, and every teacher at the school is female. If that ever changes, then the leadership will have to change as well.

A female teacher has nothing to do with a female in the pulpit.

I laugh that I am being compared to an ELCA line of belief. What I have been posting has been directly from the WELS Q&A site, which is mainly taken from the writings of Luther himself when it comes to the doctrinal issues.

Yes, we do not believe that ordination is commanded by scripture, but that doesn't mean we don't ordain our ministers. My husband was ordained, his father was ordained, his God-father was ordained and so on and so forth. Where we split with the LCMS is that we don't believe in apostolic succession, that's a very Catholic idea - who believe that Peter was the first pope.

I will continue to believe that the power is in the WORD, not the person reading the word. There are rules regarding who can and cannot "preach" in a church setting, such as no females being allowed in the pulpit.

I suggest that those who are posting what WELS believes when they are not WELS let WELS speak for themselves, rather than you twisting what you think it is that we believe.

 

[DaRev]

Where we split with the LCMS is that we don't believe in apostolic succession, that's a very Catholic idea - who believe that Peter was the first pope.

I suggest that those who are posting what WELS believes when they are not WELS let WELS speak for themselves, rather than you twisting what you think it is that we believe.

LCMS believes in Apostolic Succession? That's news to me.