DaRev: Tidbits from my husband

[PreachersWife2004]

I passed on what you wrote to my husband, who has been a minister in the WELS for almost 10 years.

He would like to know why you narrow the call so much. Why is it that a call can't be extended temporarily to an elder to distribute communion?

Can you point out exactly where in the confessions that it states that it MUST be a pastor distributing communion? Or are you simply putting a call and a pastor on the same level?

Why is that many principal calls include assisting with communion when needed?

He seems to believe that you are promoting the very Catholic idea of the "pastoral" line. There were no pastors in the New Testament, only elders of the church.

He is also curious as to whether you view communion or baptism NOT done by a pastor as any less of a service. That's a big question, because it speaks the the communion I receive every other week and it speaks to my first son's baptism, which was performed by father in the hospital. (My father is not a pastor).

And also, he is curious about what you believe regarding the keys, because we believe that ALL believers receive the Office of the Keys. I think I can even imagine the chart in Luther's small catechism that speaks about it, but without having it in front of me I can't speak to the validity of that.

 

[DaRev]

I passed on what you wrote to my husband, who has been a minister in the WELS for almost 10 years.

He would like to know why you narrow the call so much. Why is it that a call can't be extended temporarily to an elder to distribute communion?
Can you point out exactly where in the confessions that it states that it MUST be a pastor distributing communion? Or are you simply putting a call and a pastor on the same level?

From the Augsburg Confession:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Article XIV: Of Ecclesiastical Order.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called. [/FONT]

[/FONT]

Why is that many principal calls include assisting with communion when needed?

What is a "principal call"?

He seems to believe that you are promoting the very Catholic idea of the "pastoral" line. There were no pastors in the New Testament, only elders of the church.

The word "elder" in the New Testament is the translation for the Greek word "presbuteros". If you read the qualifications set forth in God's word in Titus 1, it is the qualifications for the pastor of the congregation. In the New Testament, the "elder" is the pastor. There most certainly are pastors in the New Testament.

He is also curious as to whether you view communion or baptism NOT done by a pastor as any less of a service. That's a big question, because it speaks the the communion I receive every other week and it speaks to my first son's baptism, which was performed by father in the hospital. (My father is not a pastor).

As far as communion, the pastor is the one who has the command and authority of Christ to administer that function. If one other than the one who is called and ordained by God through the Church administers the sacrament, I would have to question the validity of the sacrament because it would be done outside the clear command of Christ who instituted both the sacrament and the office of the public ministry.

As for baptism, any baptized Christian can baptize someone in an emergency situation.

And also, he is curious about what you believe regarding the keys, because we believe that ALL believers receive the Office of the Keys. I think I can even imagine the chart in Luther's small catechism that speaks about it, but without having it in front of me I can't speak to the validity of that.

The Keys are given to the Church. The Church then calls one, as prompted by the Holy Spirit through prayer, to be ordained to carry out the functions and reposnsibilities of the office of the Keys. The Office is NOT given to the Priesthood of Believers. The PoB and the OPM are two different things.

This is the main difference between the LCMS and the WELS. The LCMS holds to the Biblical teaching that the Pastoral Office is Divinely instituted, where the WELS does not hold to this.

From the LCMS website:

2) The doctrine of the ministry. With respect to the doctrine of the ministry, since the days of C. F. W. Walther our Synod has held that the office of the public ministry (the pastoral office) according to the Scriptures is the one divinely established office in the church, while the church possesses the freedom to create other offices, by human institution, from time to time to assist in the carrying out of the functions of the pastoral ministry. The WELS' Theses on Church and Ministry, however, expressly deny that the pastoral ministry is specifically instituted by the Lord in contrast to other forms of public ministry (see Doctrinal Statements, pp. 9-11; cf. the Commission on Theology and Church Relations' 1981 report on The Ministry: Office, Procedures, and Nomenclature.

 

[porterross]

This is interesting. I have often wondered just what the confessional distinctions were between us and the WELS.

 

[seajoy]

Never seen a thread directed at one particular person before. Is it ok for others to respond with posts?

 

[porterross]

pssst-t, Seajoy....you just did.

 

[seajoy]

pssst-t, Seajoy....you just did.

Oooops

 

[DaSeminarian]

This is interesting. I have often wondered just what the confessional distinctions were between us and the WELS.

Now please don't get me wrong here. I am not attacking WELS. I am just explaining it.

WELS does not put an emphasis on the Office of Holy Ministry. In fact we read PW's point that they believe the power is in the "Word of Christ" not who says them. They offer ordination only to those who want it, otherwise it is an optional rite and not required.

The POAB is their mantra, but yet they hold true to the "women" being silent and not having authority. The ELS is in Altar and Pulpit fellowship with them and they believe the same things for the most part, though there are some Pastors in the ELS who have broken away because of this relationship between the two synods.

The LCMS holds to the Office of the Holy Ministry as DaRev mentioned. We hold that ordination marks the pastor as a called servant of Christ and his word and sacraments. If this makes us look more Catholic then I take that as a compliment.

 

[porterross]

WELS does not put an emphasis on the Office of Holy Ministry. In fact we read PW's point that they believe the power is in the "Word of Christ" not who says them. They offer ordination only to those who want it, otherwise it is an optional rite and not required.

That I did not know and am rather shocked to learn. How is that holding to the Lutheran Confessions?

 

[DaRev]

If this makes us look more Catholic then I take that as a compliment.

 

[DaRev]

That I did not know and am rather shocked to learn. How is that holding to the Lutheran Confessions?

It isn't.

 

[LilLamb219]

In fact we read PW's point that they believe the power is in the "Word of Christ" not who says them.

This is what I believe too

 

[DaRev]

This is what I believe too

So, you don't think the called and ordained have any authority in the Church, either? That's the context of the comment.

 

[LilLamb219]

They have authority but the power is behind the word.

 

[porterross]

My grandmother thinks she administers it to herself, but she has dementia. Does that count?

 

[DaRev]

They have authority but the power is behind the word.

Exactly. And it's the Word who gives that authority. This is what some in the WELS do not agree with.

 

[DaRev]

My grandmother thinks she administers it to herself, but she has dementia. Does that count?

Well, her theology may be a bit off, but her heart and her faith are most certainly in the right place.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Now please don't get me wrong here. I am not attacking WELS. I am just explaining it.

WELS does not put an emphasis on the Office of Holy Ministry. In fact we read PW's point that they believe the power is in the "Word of Christ" not who says them. They offer ordination only to those who want it, otherwise it is an optional rite and not required.

The POAB is their mantra, but yet they hold true to the "women" being silent and not having authority. The ELS is in Altar and Pulpit fellowship with them and they believe the same things for the most part, though there are some Pastors in the ELS who have broken away because of this relationship between the two synods.

The LCMS holds to the Office of the Holy Ministry as DaRev mentioned. We hold that ordination marks the pastor as a called servant of Christ and his word and sacraments. If this makes us look more Catholic then I take that as a compliment.

And again I ask...just what do you mean by this?

One MUST be ordained in the WELS to be a pastor. I'm not sure where you get this ridiculous notion that we don't hold our called workers in high esteem.

(By the way, DaRev asked what a principal call was. It's to be a principal at a particular WELS Lutheran school. A lot of these calls include assisting with communion when needed. But I suppose that doesn't count with the LCMS because a principal isn't a pastor, right?)


So the drift that I'm getting here is that my communion that I take every week is "less" in the minds of the LCMS because it is administered by an elder of the church. My first son's baptism must also be "less" in the minds of the LCMS because there was no emergency, only a desire to have him baptized as soon as possible.

And to your last comment about taking being more catholic as a compliment, I'm sure Luther's rolling in his grave right about now.

I will always believe in the power of the Word, NOT the power of one speaking the word. My husband is not the most eloquent speaker in the world, but the message is still there, loud and clear, because the Holy Spirit works in him.

 

[Jim47]

Exactly. And it's the Word who gives that authority. This is what some in the WELS do not agree with.

If you really agreed with this then what is the basis for your argument?

Obviously you believe it comes down to one who has been ordained as a minister and not The Lord's word.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

To clarify what a few seem to be misunderstand...

WELS does not believe that ordination is commanded by scripture.

But WELS pastors are ordained ministers.

 

[DaRev]

(By the way, DaRev asked what a principal call was. It's to be a principal at a particular WELS Lutheran school. A lot of these calls include assisting with communion when needed. But I suppose that doesn't count with the LCMS because a principal isn't a pastor, right?)

Why would someone who is called to be a school administrator be expected to serve at the altar in the church? That makes no sense to me.

So the drift that I'm getting here is that my communion that I take every week is "less" in the minds of the LCMS because it is administered by an elder of the church.

Yes, because the elder is not the one who is called and ordained and given the authority to administer the Sacrament by Christ through the call. The administration of the sacrament would then be done outside the instituted command of Christ. The Formula of Concord speaks of the instituted use of the sacrament and the valididty thereof.

My first son's baptism must also be "less" in the minds of the LCMS because there was no emergency, only a desire to have him baptized as soon as possible.

Was he baptized with water and in the Name of the Triune God? Then it's a valid baptism. But I would ask why wasn't it done in the church according to the Confessional teachings of the Lutheran Church if there was no emergency?

And to your last comment about taking being more catholic as a compliment, I'm sure Luther's rolling in his grave right about now.

Why? The Lutheran Church was (and is still) know as the Evangelical Catholic Church in Luther's day. It wasn't the Church Catholic that Luther was opposed to, it was the abuses and heresies of Rome. The Lutheran Church is very much catholic, just not Roman catholic.

I will always believe in the power of the Word, NOT the power of one speaking the word. My husband is not the most eloquent speaker in the world, but the message is still there, loud and clear, because the Holy Spirit works in him.

While the power is in Christ's word, the authority is given to the pastor who's call it is to teach and to preach and to administer the sacraments. This is the command of Christ. The power is in the Word. The authority is in the office instituted by the Word.