Daniel's 70th week

pasifika · Feb 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
By the logic you were using, because we didn't see the literal things accomplished, then they couldn't have happened. Now you are trying to say that the figurative language of Isaiah 40 isn't the same as Matthew 24 because it was literal and Isaiah was figurative?

They did see that. They recognized that what was taking place was Jesus coming to bring wrath on those who rejected him.

Prophecy in the bible is symbolic. It isn't usually ever literal. Jesus wasn't saying that people would literally see him.

And he was speaking of the last day there. And Paul says we'll meet Jesus in the air. Matthew 24 is not about the last day and it isn't about a personal return of Jesus.

Nonsense. In fact, he doesn't say that he was coming back in person. Specifically he says his coming was in power and glory. So the power and glory that they witnessed was his return to Judge and condemn Jerusalem for rejecting him and killing the prophets he sent them.

Show me where Jesus says he's coming back in person in Matthew 24 or Luke 21.

Did they literally see Jesus coming in clouds in AD70 or they only recognise that the destruction of Jerusalem is Jesus bringing judgment?

If they didn't literally see Jesus coming in AD70 what makes you so certain that Luke 21:27 is fulfilled in AD 70 without any witnesses or writing or anything to prove that this event took place...

Any scriptures states that He (Jesus ) comes back multiple times?

1Corinthians 15:23.." But each in turn; Christ the Firstfruit then, when He comes, those who belong to Him...

If you dont believe that Jesus is coming back in person then maybe you should look at Acts:1:11...
Acts 1:11..."Men of Galilee", they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven....

And I believe Jesus only come back ONCE and for all..

pasifika · Feb 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
It doesn't say 70 weeks is given "them" to end the transgression etc etc.

The 70 weeks is "for" your people and your city. As in, that's all the time there will be for all these things to occur. God was doing all of it, not the people. And he did it all in "70 weeks."

I didn't say it's the people who is doing it but God...correct, 70 weeks for your people ... have to make sure I write correctly next time...

Sin is still in this world, we are all struggle with it...but those who are of Christ will eventually overcome it power...

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
But he says that even his coming on the clouds was going to happen before that generation passed. If you believe that he was talking about the end of the world, then he was actually trying to mislead them. That doesn't seem like a very honest thing to do for a man who said he WAS the truth.

Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. This is where you are misunderstanding. You then impose your opinion of how long you think a generation is to fit your theology. Because you are so sold on Preterism and the coming of Titus in AD70 you cannot think genea is anything other than 40 years. To others it can also mean an age or a race, all depending on the context.

What is notable is what you have ignored on this thread that forbids your doctrine.

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
But he says that even his coming on the clouds was going to happen before that generation passed. If you believe that he was talking about the end of the world, then he was actually trying to mislead them. That doesn't seem like a very honest thing to do for a man who said he WAS the truth.

That is because you fail to see the two questions the disciples asked and the two events Jesus described - one past, the other future. I have noticed, Preterists can only go toe-to-toe with Premils, they cannot do it with fellow Amils. Their reasoning quickly falls apart. The reasoning being: other Amils believe in supporting Scripture with Scripture. This is what forbids Preterism.

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
It is this level of preciseness that makes the prophecies valid and it shows us that God is true to his word. How odd that anyone would argue with his time frames. It would actually call into question his omniscience and omnipotence were he not to accomplish what he had determined and in the time he determined it.

I completely agree. What's ironic is that the Israelite captivity was equal time served for disobeying God's Sabbath calendar, so when people say things like "God isn't concerned with time" they're neglecting something powerful that testifies of His omnipotence and sovereignty.

(Lev. 25:2-4; 26:33-35) Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the LORD. 3‘Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop, 4but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard… 33‘You, however, I will scatter among the nations and will draw out a sword after you, as your land becomes desolate and your cities become waste. 34‘Then the land will enjoy its sabbaths all the days of the desolation, while you are in your enemies’ land; then the land will rest and enjoy its sabbaths. 35‘All the days of its desolation it will observe the rest which it did not observe on your sabbaths, while you were living on it.

(2 Chron. 36:21) To fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

(Ezra 1:1) Why were the Jews exiled? | Evidence Unseen

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Both the Greek words genos and genea refer to race - in this case the Jewish race. This is where you are misunderstanding.

This error has been corrected repeatedly (even in this thread, I believe). Take note of the specific definition that's assigned for each verse:

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage). Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

pasifika said:
I didn't say it's the people who is doing it but God...correct, 70 weeks for your people ... have to make sure I write correctly next time...

Sin is still in this world, we are all struggle with it...but those who are of Christ will eventually overcome it power...

"Eventually"? Do you not believe God has already forgiven your sins? What was the Cross all about?

Do you know the point of beginning of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks?

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

mkgal1 said:
This error has been corrected repeatedly (even in this thread, I believe). Take note of the specific definition that's assigned for each verse:

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί); ; Philippians 2:15; used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period: Matthew 11:16; Matthew 12:39, 41f, 45; Matthew 16:4; Matthew 23:36; Mark 8:12, 38; Luke 11:29f, 32, 50; Luke 17:25; Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10; ἄνθρωποι τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 7:31; ἄνδρες τῆς γενεάς ταύτης, Luke 11:31; τήν δέ γενεάν αὐτοῦ τίς διηγήσεται, who can describe the wickedness of the present generation, Acts 8:33 (from Isaiah 53:8 the Sept.) (but cf. Meyer, at the passage). Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

It is not the main reason. You cherry pick a meaning to suit your theology. That is not the right way to interpret Scripture. Check out the main meanings:

Thayer Definition:

1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

pasifika said:
Did they literally see Jesus coming in clouds in AD70 or they only recognise that the destruction of Jerusalem is Jesus bringing judgment?

Look at this passage carefully - it says they saw Him "coming in a cloud with power and glory" - that refers to God's judgement (from other Scripture that I'll show you). It's not literal that that Jesus was seen riding a cloud. Substitute that phrase with "judging the nation" and see if it can change your perception:

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory

And then they shall see the Son of Man judging the nation with power and great glory.

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is not the main reason. You cherry pick a meaning to suit your theology.

I'm going by the definition assigned by the Lexicon. And how am I "cherry picking" and you're not?

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
It is not the main reason. You cherry pick a meaning to suit your theology. That is not the right way to interpret Scripture. Check out the main meanings:

Thayer Definition:

1) fathered, birth, nativity

2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family

2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy

2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character

2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation

3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time

4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Thank you for an excellent example of ignoring the third definition (the specific one assigned to the Olivet Discourse passages) and emphasizing the ones that you prefer as they work better with your interpretation. You're right - that's not the right way to interpret Scripture.

Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί);

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

mkgal1 said:
I'm going by the definition assigned by the Lexicon. And how am I "cherry picking" and you're not?

Correct! See my last post!

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Thank you for an excellent example of ignoring the third definition (the specific one assigned to the Olivet Discourse passages) and emphasizing the ones that you prefer as they work better with your interpretation. You're right - that's not the right way to interpret Scripture.

In your opinion!

The reality is, it is talking about the Jewish race. With your fixation with the coming of Titus in AD70, you overlook the focus of the NT on the two coming of Christ. You constantly overlook the First Advent and the glorious future physical return of Christ in power and glory.

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Thank you for an excellent example of ignoring the third definition (the specific one assigned to the Olivet Discourse passages) and emphasizing the ones that you prefer as they work better with your interpretation. You're right - that's not the right way to interpret Scripture.
Strong's Greek: 1074. γενεά (genea) -- race, family, generation

b. metaphorically, a race of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character; and especially in a bad sense a perverse race: Matthew 17:17; Mark 9:19; Luke 9:41; Luke 16:8; (Acts 2:40).

3. the whole multitude of men living at the same time: Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48 (πᾶσαι αἱ γενεαί);

When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You constantly overlook the First Advent

This is a completely false accusation.

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
When and how did Jesus "send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and … gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other" back in AD70 (Mat 24:31 and Mark 13:27)?

His church knew the signs to look for (because He, Jesus, had taught them) - and around 66 AD they followed Jesus' instruction and fled to the hills of Pella where they were kept safe. I'm not even sure how people expect that instruction to be useful in Jesus' future return?

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

mkgal1 said:
This is a completely false accusation.

Text after text showing th

mkgal1 said:
His church knew the signs to look for (because He, Jesus, had taught them) - and around 66 AD they followed Jesus' instruction and fled to the hills of Pella where they were kept safe. I'm not even sure how people expect that instruction to be useful in Jesus' future return?

What?

It is clearly talking about the angels gathering His elect from heaven and earth when He finally returns in the future in power and glory. Do you think He brought the elect from heaven in AD70?

I thought you believed that the elect dead went to heaven until the coming of Titus in AD70?

mkgal1 · Feb 10, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Text after text showing th

What?

It is clearly talking about the angels gathering His elect from heaven and earth when He finally returns in the future in power and glory. Do you think He brought the elect from heaven in AD70?

I thought you believed that the elect dead went to heaven until the coming of Titus in AD70?

As I've said several times before, my beliefs will not make any sense being filtered through your paradigm. A person has to set aside their preconceived ideas in order to see Scripture in a new way.

sovereigngrace · Feb 10, 2020

mkgal1 said:
As I've said several times before, my beliefs will not make any sense being filtered through your paradigm. A person has to set aside their preconceived ideas in order to see Scripture in a new way.

It is another evidence that your doctrine does not add up. That is why you have no explanation or justification for it.

Al Touthentop · Feb 10, 2020

pasifika said:
I didn't say it's the people who is doing it but God...correct, 70 weeks for your people ... have to make sure I write correctly next time...

Sin is still in this world, we are all struggle with it...but those who are of Christ will eventually overcome it power...

If you don't think Christ overcame sin, what do you think he was doing here?

Daniel's 70th week

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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