Daniel's 70th Week Future or Fulfilled? Pt1

JMWHALEN · Dec 16, 2005

GLJCA said:
JMWHALEN said:

I am sorry that you take my words as condesending cliches but they were not meant that way.

What is it JM since you can't deal with the timeline you have to resort to trashing your opponent in the discussion? If you were really a Berean or a right divider, you would be researching the timeline to find out if it really is correct instead of trying to change the direction of the discussion and trashing the person who brought it out. If the direction of the timeline is correct then your premise is a moot point.

This discussion is on the timeline, and it always has been.That is the criteria that I established from the beginning of the discussion. You on the other hand have tried your best to change the direction of this discussion to your premise. I maintain that you need to start another thread on your premise but not on this one. This one is dealing with the timeline. If you have input concerning the timeline then let's hear it, if not then you should bow out of the discussion, like you said you were. I promise I will not go looking for your input if you bow out of this discussion.

If you can't show that the timeline is wrong by showing that the 483 years from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the baptism of Christ is not correct, then you have no recourse but to either change your belief or ignore God's perfect timing. If you can't show that the ministry of Christ was not 3.5 years, or that the disciples did not confirm the covenant to the Jews for another 3.5 years making the 490 years Daniel wrote about, then the timeline is correct.
It was timed perfectly by God and Jesus could not start his ministry until the time had come.

I have presented scriptural proof on the timeline now I would like you or someone else to show scriptural proof on the gap between the 69th and 70th week? Since this is such a strong belief in Dispensationalism you should have no problem finding scriptural proof for it and you really should have more proof than such an obscure passage as Dan 12:13 which really doesn't say what you say it does. You can't offer something as proof that is taken out of context, saying that it is saying something that it doesn't say. That is called eisogesis of scripture(reading into a verse what you want it to say).

Please let's keep the discussion on the timeline or on the gap between the 69th and 70th week. If you can't then bow out of the discussion. All you are doing is sowing discord otherwise and you know what God says about that.

Have a great day JM.

GLJCA

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"I am sorry that you take my words as condesending cliches but they were not meant that way
What is it JM since you can't deal with the timeline you have to resort to trashing your opponent in the discussion? If you were really a Berean or a right divider, you would be researching the timeline to find out if it really is correct instead of trying to change the direction of the discussion and trashing the person who brought it out. If the direction of the timeline is correct then your premise is a moot point"

My comment: "Trashing"? If your dismissal of my premise time and again, without even discussing Daniel 12:13, and my criticism of you not even addressing my argument, which you never did, is considered "trashing", so be it. "change the direction of the discussion"? No, you failed to address my premise, and then go about asserting that Daniel 12:13 is irrelevant. I cannot "change direction" from some place I have never been! I stayed on my premise, and , again, you never have addressed it!

"If you were really a Berean or a right divider, you would be researching the timeline to find out if it really is correct instead"

My comment: I have, sir, and the timeline I support, which is different from yours, does fit the argument that Daniel's 70th week, and is still awaiting fulfillment. But my timeline is derived from looking at FIRST whether the facts in scripture support the case that all of the events described in Daniel are fulfilled, and then evaluating scripture's timeline to see if this is verified! And the events in Daniel, which describe the ultimate "end" of Daniel 2:44, have not been fulfilled!

You do the opposite."This discussion is on the timeline, and it always has been". No, the discussion is not on the timeline-the timeline is derived from the scripture's testimony, not presumed, and should not be the determiner of whether the 70th week is past/future, but should SUPPORT, should be the EVIDENCE, supporting literal events as given within the scripture! That is, many timelines can be provided that support different arguments-honorable people, Christians, can and have disagreed on the exact chronological order of the timeline-many of these timelines are viable. However, you presume that your timeline is correct, and then fit your argument that the 70th week is fulfilled based on that presumed timeline. Others disagree with your timeline, Robert Anderson's "The Coming Prince" being the standard on the timeline question. You dismiss the evidence I provided on the Daniel 12:13 "the end", which is included in the timeline, which is one fulfillment of "...to confirm the promises made unto the fathers(my emphasis=the circumcision=Jews)=an earthly, physical, literal, visible kingdom, with a king, on a throne, ruling from Jerusalem, with the Jews as a favored nation in their resurrected bodies="....as the days of heaven upon the earth..."(Deut. 11:21), and then go about fitting the events descibed in Daniel 9:27(and again, you dismiss Daniel 12:13)..

Despite your "it is not hard to see that the end isn't talking about the end of the world. It is talking about the end of the nation of Israel as the people of God. Jesus told the Jews in Matt 12 that the Kingdom was to be taken from them and given to a nation that is bringing forth the fruits required" premise, it is erroneous, as God will fulfill the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants, and your " Daniel is not prophesying about the restoration of the kingdom to Israel he is prophesying in Daniel 9 concerning the timetable from the building of Jerusalem till the coming of the Messiah and the covenant that He confirmed to His people. In fact the end time that Daniel 9 is talking about is the end of Israel as a nation proven by the timing of the revelation of the prophecy." You misinterpret, erroneously assume, that the covenants made with Abraham and his descendants exclude a nation of resurrrected Jewish saints in a kingdom, and do not understand that Daniel focuses on Daniel 2:44, and the fulfillment of ALL the covenants made to the JEWS! You are saying God is done with Israel as it pertains to a nation of a "kingdom of priests."-this is your premise:" No I do not believe that God is done with Covenant Israel. That is not my premise at all. I do however believe that God is done with the Nation of Israel." And you miss that "the covenant that He confirmed to His people" includes living in resurrected bodies, in their land inheritance("lot"). You need to study these covenants-you do not know them. Wrong premises=wrong conclusion.

"'the end" is clearly referenced in Daniel 12. Re-read my post. I will not restate it. This is future, because it is tied to Daniel's resurrection. Daniel chapter 12 tells us what "the end" is-see my post. Daniel chapters 9/12 are not about " the end of Israel as a nation". That will not happen:

"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing..." Genesis 12:2
"And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel." Ex. 19:6

"Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD." Jeremiah 31:35-37

"And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all." Ez. 37:22

'And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever." Micah 4:7

"Obviously I don't think that God is done with Covenant Israel as I have been talking about the fact that we, as believing Gentiles, have been grafted into Covenant Israel."

Discussing Romans 11 would be "too much" for this post. However, part of "the promises made unto the fathers" unconditionally, based on God's faithfulness, not Israel's, is that the covental promises belonfing exclusively to Israel, is a kingdom, a king, with the kingdom being ruled by the King, the Lord Jesus Christ, on earth, in Jerusalem, with Israel being the head of nations. This has not been fulfilled,as the Jews are not in this position now, and Daniel has not been resurrected in his land inheritance("thy lot")...................................

To the contrary, Daniel is a summary of God's ultimate promise to restore the kingdom to Israel-the consumation. The period of days that occur during the last of the "70 weeks" include the resurrection of Daniel. When was he resurrected? The days of Daniel 12 were still future in the Lord Jesus Christ's day, since he referred to the abomination of desolation as still future in Mt. 24:15, and he specifically refers us to Daniel. The events were still future when Paul wrote 2 Thes. 2:3,4. Again, the events of Daniel 12 concerning the abomination of desolation were still future when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke, and the specific days relating to those events were numbered. Daniel was promised to be resurrected at the end of those days in which the abomination of desolation is in place. The article modifying "days", "the", is the article of the previous reference. The "days" of verse 13 refers to the days discussed in the previous verses-Chapter 12 "a time of trouble"="Jer. 30:7="/"at that time thy people" /"seal the book, even to the time of the end"=the end of the Great Trib, when the LORD God will make good on the covenental promises given to the JEWS(thy people"), including LAND:

The time of Jacob's trouble "pre-figured in Gen. 32:7:
"Then Jacob was greatly afraid and distressed..."

"For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it." Jeremiah 30:4-7

This was not fulfilled in A.D. 70, as the Jews were driven out of the land, scattered, not saved, and fled in terror. This is future.

"and to seal up the vision and prophecy" 9:24
" ...., shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end..." 12:4

"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end." 12:8-10

"...Many shall be purified....but the wise shall understand..." 12:10/" When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand.." Mt. 24:15 =Future!

"to shut up" means to cause a cessation or to completely fulfill. Thus, the vision and the prophecy are to be completely fulfilled. When was he resurrected? This is a reference to all visions and prophecies recorded in the Holy Bible, and all were revealed to the Jews, and all of it is sealed up in Israel. Daniel was commanded to seal up the book of prophecy until the time of the end, which was not at the cross, which was not at A.D. 70, meaning when the Jews would be returned to the LAND, and have it as their inheritance="stand in thy lot"(12:13).

"Jesus told the Jews in Matt 12 that the Kingdom was to be taken from them and given to a nation that is bringing forth the fruits required." This is "the little flock"-Jews, "the kingdom church". Does "a nation of priests" sound familiar?=Jews! See my post on the fact that the body of Christ is never referred to as a "nation of priest".The gospel of the kingdom: a kingdom, a king, and LAND. Not the Body of Christ. This has not happened-it will. The LORD God will fulfill the promises made to the Jews=Romans 11:25-29, 15:8...... =a kingdom, a king, land:

"...as the days of heaven upon the earth...." Deut. 11:21

"to a nation"? The body of Christ is never referred to as such(see my previous article), and our sphere of blessing is the heavenlies, not on earth=land! A kingdom=LAND, or "class dismissed". This is a promise to Jews!

The Genesis 12 Everlasting Covenant
-Genesis 17:7,19

That necessarily includes Resurrection.

Land-the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and Jacob's descedants: Gen. 13:17, 15:7,17:8, 26:3, 28:13; Heb. 11:8,9.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob die without receiving the promised land: Heb 11:13; Gen. 25:8, 34:29, 49:33; Acts 7:5

The land is specifically promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (and Jacob's descendents, including Daniel), and that they died without receiving that promised land.

The Land Promise is repeated or referred to more than any other promise: Genesis 12:7, 13:15, 13:17,15:7, 15:18, 26:3, 28:3-4.

(Continued)

JMWHALEN · Dec 16, 2005

(Continued)
Thus, we must come to one of several conclusions:

1. No Power: God did not have the power to fulfill the promise. Not likely! God introduced Himself to Abraham and Jacob in the following manner: "....I am Almighty God....." Gen. 17:1, 35:11.

2.God Changed His Mind: Nope! Acts 15:18, Malachi 3:6

3. God had a hidden, deeper, or higher goal than His literal promise. The real meaning of the land promise would be revealed after the death, burial, and resurrection, at Penntecost. Nope! The "spiritual goals" God has for us do not replace, reduce, or contradict the literal promises of God. This spiritualizing of Scripture has introduced the heresy of "Replacement" theology.

In the RESURRECTION God will fulfill the land promise exactly as written by raising up from the dead Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob(and Daniel and.................). This conclusion alone honors the promises of God and the faith of Abraham. When Abraham died, he had not received the promised land!(nor did Daniel!) In the resurrection,he and his faithful descendants will inherit the land exactly as promised.

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance(my emphasis-in the resurrection, as confirmed in Daniel 12:13=his "lot=his land inheritance in a resurrected body), obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8

In Matt 22:31 & 32 the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to unbelieving Sadducees, connects God and Abraham to prove/confirm the doctrine of the resurrection.

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(resurrection-my emphasis).

Daniel 12:13: "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest(in death), and stand in thy lot at the end of the days"(in resurrection attain the land inheritance-my emphasis).

Matt 8:11: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven"(resurrected in the land of "the kingdom of heaven"-my emphasis).

Daniel 2:44: " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom(my emphasis-a kingdom is set up by force=a violent, sudden event with great force, while the body of Christ is being "built up"=a gradual, process-1 Cor. 3:9-11, Col. 2:7, Eph. 2:20-22), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

No one can sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, unless they are raised from the dead.

unto Eternal life:
An everlasting covenant between GOD and Abraham demands everlasting life, an everlasting possession of the promised land to Abraham and his descendants demands the resurrection and everlasting life.

These facts of an everlasting covenant between God and Abraham, Gen.17:7 and the promise of an everlasting possession of the land given to Abraham(Gen 17:8), are the biblical foundation for our belief in the resurrection and eternal life, and the eternal inheritance of the Lord Jesus Christ Christ and the Jewish saints.

God will be faithful. The Romans 15:8 promise to the circumcision will happen:

The covenant is sealed in blood: Gen. 15:9, 10...................................... God's Covenant of Friendship with Abraham(James 2:23) was a blood covenant, a covenant sealed in blood. All these blood-sacrifices were consummated and terminated when the Lord Jesus offered His own spotless life and precious blood to God in our place and for--us to bring us life. His blood is the
divine-human blood of the everlasting covenant.
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Those who argue, there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week argue the He who confirms the covenant in 70th week is the Lord Jesus Christ, who with his death after 3 ½ years of ministry caused the Temple sacrifice and offering to cease, because they no longer served a purpose.
This interpretation contrives the text to say what it does not. There are several reasons a time-gap is clearly in the context of Daniels Seventy weeks.

· Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cutoff or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week.
· After Messiahs death, the Temple and city are destroyed, 37 years later.
· The 70th week is not in the context of their destruction.
· Following the death of Messiah the prince the Temple is destroyed, but in the 70th week, a 7-year covenant is confirmed requiring a Temple for sacrifice. Therefore, a future Temple is required.
· Daniel 9:27 indicates the Prince who is to come is a covenant breaker, not a covenant keeper. To break a covenant puts the covenant breaker under the curse of the agreement. The Lord Jesus Christ would not break a covenant he confirmed.
· Daniel 9:26 indicates the Prince who is to come is future, and the people who destroy the city as precursors to the prince who would come following the death of Messiah the prince.
· If there were no time gap, then the 490 years would be complete leaving the 490-years unfulfilled, because the period was determined on Daniels people and city, the Jews and Jerusalem. The Jews and Jerusalem have not yet experienced the events of Daniel 9:24.
· The word determine means, dividing, the time was divided on Jerusalem and the Jews, meaning the 490-years are segmented ( 7 weeks+ 62 weeks + 1 week= 70 weeks).
· The stopping of the sacrifice and offering at the Temple causes Gods judgment not blessing. The word consummation means complete destruction, this destruction poured out on the desolate, results from the abomination on the Temple. Therefore, this event is separate from the Lord Jesus Christs death and covenant.

Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cut off or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week. The abomination of desolation appears in the midst of the future 70th week of Daniel according to Daniel 9:27.
Many argue that the Lord Jesus Christ is killed in the middle of the week, i.e., that would mean that Daniels 70th week had its middle at the Lord Jesus Christ's death.
Again, the stopping of the sacrifice and offering at the Temple causes Gods judgment not blessing. The word consummation means complete destruction, this destruction poured out on the desolate, results from the abomination on the Temple. Therefore, this event is separate from Christs death and covenant.
It is the abomination that maketh desolate ( Daniel 12:11), not the Lord Jesus Christs work on the cross that makes desolation .
So, the interpretation of this presentation- does not that make the work of the cross an abomination? It is NOT on account of the abomination that we NEED a desolation in Daniel 9:27, but, it is the abomination itself which causes desolation-Daniel 12:11.

Daniel 9:27 indicates the Prince who is to come is a covenant breaker, not a covenant keeper. Again, to break a covenant puts the covenant breaker under the curse of the agreement. The Lord Jesus Christ breaking a covenant he confirmed? Breaking an everlasting covenant? And "the New Covenant"cannot be confirmed until there is a shedding of blood!

Again, one of the biggest fallacies concerning Christian interpretation of this passage is the assumption that the 1 week covenant is referring to the covenant of the new testament made in the blood of Messiah at the time of His death. But this covenant has nothing to do with the covenant made by the Lord Jesus Christ, for the covenant in Christ's blood is first off, eternal, not just 7 years long. Secondly, since the alleged new covenant was not made until He died on the cross, the covenant would not have began until after He died, which would cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease at the beginning of it, not in the middle of it. Likewise, in Scripture, no covenant is valid or in force until blood has been shed to confirm the covenant. Accordingly, the Lord Jesus Christ cannot die in the middle of a 7 year covenant to bring an end to sacrifices and offerings if that covenant did not begin until He died.

"If you have input concerning the timeline then let's hear it, if not then you should bow out of the discussion, like you said you were. I promise I will not go looking for your input if you bow out of this discussion.
"If you can't show that the timeline is wrong by showing that the 483 years from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the baptism of Christ is not correct, then you have no recourse but to either change your belief or ignore God's perfect timing. If you can't show that the ministry of Christ was not 3.5 years, or that the disciples did not confirm the covenant to the Jews for another 3.5 years making the 490 years Daniel wrote about, then the timeline is correct.
It was timed perfectly by God and Jesus could not start his ministry until the time had come"

My comment:And you have no recourse if you continue to assume your erroneous premises, and ignore the promises of the covenants made to the JEWS, not you. You need to change your doctrine and your timeline to fit scripture, not vica versa. You cannot show that the Lord Jesus Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 years, and that the disciples for 3 1/2 years after the death, burial and resurrection confirmed "the New Covenant", and he did not break any 7 year covenant, the disciples were to be the beneficiaries of "The New Covenant" Of Jeremiah 31, WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED, not the confirmers, and.....(the preceding). His ministry was to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, and these promises were not fulfilled as yet, and certainly not in the 70th week.

"if not then you should bow out of the discussion, like you said you were. I promise I will not go looking for your input if you bow out of this discussion. "

My comment: I will bow out now, but I suggest you "fold". The LORD God is not done with "the nation of Israel as the people of God." will "restore the kingdom to Israel", the focus of Daniel, and the Jews will be resurrected physically before this 70th week is completed, despite your assertions/premises to the contrary.

"...What I have written I have written..." John 19:22

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

GLJCA · Dec 16, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
GLJCA said:

My comment: "Trashing"? If your dismissal of my premise time and again, without even discussing Daniel 12:13, and my criticism of you not even addressing my argument, which you never did, is considered "trashing", so be it. "change the direction of the discussion"? No, you failed to address my premise, and then go about asserting that Daniel 12:13 is irrelevant. I cannot "change direction" from some place I have never been! I stayed on my premise, and , again, you never have addressed it!

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I did not address it because it did not pertain to the timeline. I asked time and again that you not try to change the direction of the thread. If you would deal with the timeline I believe that your premise would be moot. Your trying to change the direction of the thread is proof that you can not deal with the timeline. I am sorry that you have gotten so angry over this but I set the parameters of the discussion and I did not want those parameters changed. If you can not abide by those parameters then just bow out. I have no ill feeling toward you, JM.

Daniel 12:13 is irrelevant to the timeline. If you want to talk about Daniel 12:13 start another thread and I will glad meet you there where we can talk civily about it and I will submit to your parameters.

Discussing Romans 11 would be "too much" for this post. However, part of "the promises made unto the fathers" unconditionally, based on God's faithfulness, not Israel's, is that the covental promises belonfing exclusively to Israel, is a kingdom, a king, with the kingdom being ruled by the King, the Lord Jesus Christ, on earth, in Jerusalem, with Israel being the head of nations. This has not been fulfilled,as the Jews are not in this position now, and Daniel has not been resurrected in his land inheritance("thy lot")...................................

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I would like to comment on this paragraph. You say that one of the promises is that Israel will have a kingdom, a king, and the kingdom will be ruled by a king. When you skip what the NT says it is easy to think that this has not been fulfilled.
Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords today.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
1Peter 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Eph 1:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
That sure sounds like a king to me. What scripture can you show me that proves that Jesus isn't king today?

The NT has a lot to say about the kingdom also. Paul tells this Gentile church that they have been translated into the kingdom of Christ.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Notice the word "hath" that isn't future tense, it is past tense. Paul says that we, Gentiles, are called to His kingdom.
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Again Paul tells this Gentile church that they are counted worthy of the kingdom of God. Why would these Gentiles be suffering for a kingdom that they would never inherit?
2Th 1:5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

The kingdom is not just promised to the Jews but is promised to all that love God.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Each of these verses were written to believers of Jesus Christ. They were written, some to Gentile believers and some to Jewish believers but all were in the body of Christ and therefore part of the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ is King today and I would imagine that He doesn't take lightly you not recognizing His kingship. You are wrong in what you believe about the kingdom because you ignore the scriptures and listen to a system of belief that is in error.

Have a great day, JM

GLJCA

JMWHALEN · Dec 16, 2005

GLJCA said:
JMWHALEN said:

I did not address it because it did not pertain to the timeline. I asked time and again that you not try to change the direction of the thread. If you would deal with the timeline I believe that your premise would be moot. Your trying to change the direction of the thread is proof that you can not deal with the timeline. I am sorry that you have gotten so angry over this but I set the parameters of the discussion and I did not want those parameters changed. If you can not abide by those parameters then just bow out. I have no ill feeling toward you, JM.

Daniel 12:13 is irrelevant to the timeline. If you want to talk about Daniel 12:13 start another thread and I will glad meet you there where we can talk civily about it and I will submit to your parameters.

I would like to comment on this paragraph. You say that one of the promises is that Israel will have a kingdom, a king, and the kingdom will be ruled by a king. When you skip what the NT says it is easy to think that this has not been fulfilled.
Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords today.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
1Peter 3:21 ¶ The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Eph 1:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.
Phil 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
That sure sounds like a king to me. What scripture can you show me that proves that Jesus isn't king today?

The NT has a lot to say about the kingdom also. Paul tells this Gentile church that they have been translated into the kingdom of Christ.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Notice the word "hath" that isn't future tense, it is past tense. Paul says that we, Gentiles, are called to His kingdom.
1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.
Again Paul tells this Gentile church that they are counted worthy of the kingdom of God. Why would these Gentiles be suffering for a kingdom that they would never inherit?
2Th 1:5 ¶ Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

The kingdom is not just promised to the Jews but is promised to all that love God.
Jas 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Each of these verses were written to believers of Jesus Christ. They were written, some to Gentile believers and some to Jewish believers but all were in the body of Christ and therefore part of the Church of Jesus Christ. Christ is King today and I would imagine that He doesn't take lightly you not recognizing His kingship. You are wrong in what you believe about the kingdom because you ignore the scriptures and listen to a system of belief that is in error.

Have a great day, JM

GLJCA

Click to expand...

___
You still cannot understand the covenants, and the resurrection, and the meaning of "land". And I imagine He does not take lightly to your spiritualization of literal scriptures. And quit the "kid stuff" with your "not recognizing His kingship" kindergarten comment. You are wrong in blaspheming against God that the Jews will not inherit a literal, physical kingdom on earth. Genesis, the "SEED PLOT" of the Holy Bible, and the rest of the "OT", is primarily concerned with the restoration of that which man lost -"...the days of heaven upon the earth"-the kingdom to Israel. You ignore the promises made to the fathers-resurrected bodies on earth-a king, a kingdom, a throne. Jesus Christ is not ruling on earth today, sir, despite your contention. He has been rejected as King, and hence the dispensation of the mystery, which you, in your ignorance(Paul calls you this, not I) do not "see"(Eph. 3:9). The body of Christ's destination of rule is the heavenlies, not earth. This is the kingdom, the sphere where we will rule with the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Your trying to change the direction of the thread is proof that you can not deal with the timeline. I am sorry that you have gotten so angry over this but I set the parameters of the discussion and I did not want those parameters changed. If you can not abide by those parameters then just bow out."

My comment: And I suggest you learn how to read, and understand that one of the dominant themes of the Holy Bible is resurrection. You keep "spinning" with this change of direction cliche, the reason is you do not understand the covenants, and the centrality of the doctrine of the resurrection, on earth and in the heavenlies. It is that simple.

"Each of these verses were written to believers of Jesus Christ. They were written, some to Gentile believers and some to Jewish believers but all were in the body of Christ and therefore part of the Church of Jesus Christ"

My comment: Again, you cannot read=all the scripture is addressed to me! These were addressed to the circumcision, not the body of Christ, who willl be on earth during the Great Trib.

This is a prime example of failure to rightly divide, and the inevitable result is REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, which you embrace.

"Daniel 12:13 is irrelevant to the timeline"- Your error in a nutshell. This occurs within the 70th week, which your replacement mind set cannot grasp. Slower: Daniel has not been resurrected.

I suggest you "start another thread" called "land does not mean land", "the kingdom on earth=the church" blah blah.... And I see you have=Replacement theology-the gospel of the kingdom=the gospel of the grace of God. And thus, the circus of TBN and the like throughout "Chritianity" -preaching a kingdom gospel.

In Christ
John M. Whalen

GLJCA · Dec 16, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
GLJCA said:

___
You still cannot understand the covenants, and the resurrection, and the meaning of "land". And I imagine He does not take lightly to your spiritualization of literal scriptures. And quit the "kid stuff" with your "not recognizing His kingship" kindergarten comment. You are wrong in blaspheming against God that the Jews will not inherit a literal, physical kingdom on earth. Genesis, the "SEED PLOT" of the Holy Bible, and the rest of the "OT", is primarily concerned with the restoration of that which man lost -"...the days of heaven upon the earth"-the kingdom to Israel. You ignore the promises made to the fathers-resurrected bodies on earth-a king, a kingdom, a throne. Jesus Christ is not ruling on earth today, sir, despite your contention. He has been rejected as King, and hence the dispensation of the mystery, which you, in your ignorance(Paul calls you this, not I) do not "see"(Eph. 3:9). The body of Christ's destination of rule is the heavenlies, not earth. This is the kingdom, the sphere where we will rule with the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Your trying to change the direction of the thread is proof that you can not deal with the timeline. I am sorry that you have gotten so angry over this but I set the parameters of the discussion and I did not want those parameters changed. If you can not abide by those parameters then just bow out."

My comment: And I suggest you learn how to read, and understand that one of the dominant themes of the Holy Bible is resurrection. You keep "spinning" with this change of direction cliche, the reason is you do not understand the covenants, and the centrality of the doctrine of the resurrection, on earth and in the heavenlies. It is that simple.

"Each of these verses were written to believers of Jesus Christ. They were written, some to Gentile believers and some to Jewish believers but all were in the body of Christ and therefore part of the Church of Jesus Christ"

My comment: Again, you cannot read=all the scripture is addressed to me! These were addressed to the circumcision, not the body of Christ, who willl be on earth during the Great Trib.

This is a prime example of failure to rightly divide, and the inevitable result is REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY, which you embrace.

"Daniel 12:13 is irrelevant to the timeline"- Your error in a nutshell. This occurs within the 70th week, which your replacement mind set cannot grasp. Slower: Daniel has not been resurrected.

I suggest you "start another thread" called "land does not mean land", "the kingdom on earth=the church" blah blah.... And I see you have=Replacement theology-the gospel of the kingdom=the gospel of the grace of God. And thus, the circus of TBN and the like throughout "Chritianity" -preaching a kingdom gospel.

In Christ
John M. Whalen

Click to expand...

Look if all you want to do is take cheap shots then that is up to you. It is your Christianity that is showing.

You are wrong in blaspheming against God that the Jews will not inherit a literal, physical kingdom on earth. Genesis, the "SEED PLOT" of the Holy Bible, and the rest of the "OT", is primarily concerned with the restoration of that which man lost -

Click to expand...

This is getting better and better. How am I blaspheming God because I don't believe that the Jews will inherit a literal kingdom on earth? That would mean that everyone from the first century until 1820 blasphemed God, because no one believed what you believe. That would mean that all that don't adhere to the Dispensational belief today is blaspheming God. Is that what you believe JM? I think you need to back up and think about what you are saying.

I don't know if you realize this or not but your posts are very hard to read because you don't distinguish what someone else wrote and what you write, making it very hard to understand what you are saying. Please start showing what others write and what you write in a different manner or more people will misinterpret what you say like you say I have. If you will highlight what someone else wrote then choose the icon that looks like a page with the arrow pointing down, that will differentiate between your comments and someone elses. This is just a friendly suggestion.

GLJCA

JMWHALEN · Dec 16, 2005

"Look if all you want to do is take cheap shots then that is up to you. It is your Christianity that is showing."

My comment: Standard cliché. No,Christians are called to judge other Christians(not unbelievers), when they do not speak according to sound doctrine. The "sweet Spirit" of the Lord Jesus Christ is sometimes communicated in harsh words.You confuse tolerance for people with tolerance for false doctrine, using the "religious pluralism" agrument that is prevalent in this society-"you are so mean spirited, intolerant, judgmental, 'unchristian'.." Tolerance is how we treat people, rationality is how we treat ideas. "All mushrooms are not good".We examine doctrine, discerning spiritual ideast just as we are to discern good mushrooms from bad, and even more so, given the eternal consequences..

" This is getting better and better. How am I blaspheming God because I don't believe that the Jews will inherit a literal kingdom on earth?"

My commment: "Blasphemy" means to speak against what the LORD God has said. In this case, you deny, you speak against that which God promised. He promised what you deny, and this questions His promise of keeping the promises of the covents to Israel(not you-you are not Israel)-very simple, sir.

" That would mean that everyone from the first century until 1820 blasphemed God, because no one believed what you believe."

My commment: 1. you make an assertion, not an argument="no one"/Paul was all alone, as was Noah........ -so what is your point? and 2.since when did truth depend on whether someone believes it, or how popular it is? By that argument, the earth was flat for most of mankind's history(most believed it was flat until "recently", even though the Bible always testified it was a sphere) , and Christianity is false, since "most" reject it.:

" That would mean that all that don't adhere to the Dispensational belief today is blaspheming God. Is that what you believe JM?"

My comment: 1. Many who do not accept dispensational teaching, do accept a literal, millennial, kingdom of heaven upon the earth-therefore, this is irrelevant.2. Blaspheming is speaking against God's word, in whatever form-it need not be in the form of rejecting dispenssationalism. Many blaspheme against the LORD in denying a future literal physical 2nd coming by the Lord Jesus Christ-"where is the promise of his coming". Just as the Jews denied the first coming of "God in the flesh", most today deny the literal 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ-Eccl 1:9r(including the full preterists). I say the same to these.

" I think you need to back up and think about what you are saying".

My comment:"...What I have written I have written..." John 19:22. I provided back up. Land=land. Very simple.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

GLJCA · Dec 29, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
"Look if all you want to do is take cheap shots then that is up to you. It is your Christianity that is showing."

My comment: Standard cliché. No,Christians are called to judge other Christians(not unbelievers), when they do not speak according to sound doctrine. The "sweet Spirit" of the Lord Jesus Christ is sometimes communicated in harsh words.You confuse tolerance for people with tolerance for false doctrine, using the "religious pluralism" agrument that is prevalent in this society-"you are so mean spirited, intolerant, judgmental, 'unchristian'.." Tolerance is how we treat people, rationality is how we treat ideas. "All mushrooms are not good".We examine doctrine, discerning spiritual ideast just as we are to discern good mushrooms from bad, and even more so, given the eternal consequences..

" This is getting better and better. How am I blaspheming God because I don't believe that the Jews will inherit a literal kingdom on earth?"

My commment: "Blasphemy" means to speak against what the LORD God has said. In this case, you deny, you speak against that which God promised. He promised what you deny, and this questions His promise of keeping the promises of the covents to Israel(not you-you are not Israel)-very simple, sir.

" That would mean that everyone from the first century until 1820 blasphemed God, because no one believed what you believe."

My commment: 1. you make an assertion, not an argument="no one"/Paul was all alone, as was Noah........ -so what is your point? and 2.since when did truth depend on whether someone believes it, or how popular it is? By that argument, the earth was flat for most of mankind's history(most believed it was flat until "recently", even though the Bible always testified it was a sphere) , and Christianity is false, since "most" reject it.:

" That would mean that all that don't adhere to the Dispensational belief today is blaspheming God. Is that what you believe JM?"

My comment: 1. Many who do not accept dispensational teaching, do accept a literal, millennial, kingdom of heaven upon the earth-therefore, this is irrelevant.2. Blaspheming is speaking against God's word, in whatever form-it need not be in the form of rejecting dispenssationalism. Many blaspheme against the LORD in denying a future literal physical 2nd coming by the Lord Jesus Christ-"where is the promise of his coming". Just as the Jews denied the first coming of "God in the flesh", most today deny the literal 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ-Eccl 1:9r(including the full preterists). I say the same to these.

" I think you need to back up and think about what you are saying".

My comment:"...What I have written I have written..." John 19:22. I provided back up. Land=land. Very simple.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

Yes, this is good. I am mean spirited, intolerant, judgmental, 'unchristian' and yet I am the one that had to talk to you about taking cheap shots. I am the one who said that your christianity is showing. The reason that you call me mean spirited is because I am telling you something that you don't want to hear. I am telling you that Dispensationalism is false teaching.

" That would mean that all that don't adhere to the Dispensational belief today is blaspheming God. Is that what you believe JM?"
My comment: 1. Many who do not accept dispensational teaching, do accept a literal, millennial, kingdom of heaven upon the earth-therefore, this is irrelevant.2. Blaspheming is speaking against God's word, in whatever form-it need not be in the form of rejecting dispenssationalism. Many blaspheme against the LORD in denying a future literal physical 2nd coming by the Lord Jesus Christ-"where is the promise of his coming". Just as the Jews denied the first coming of "God in the flesh", most today deny the literal 2nd coming of the Lord Jesus Christ-Eccl 1:9r(including the full preterists). I say the same to these.

Oh by the way I have never denied the literal second coming of the Lord. If you would read my posts thoroughly you would have seen that. I have said several times that I am not a full preterist. Therefore your accusation can not be aimed at me. You must be speaking of someone else.

GLJCA

GLJCA · Dec 29, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
My commment: "Blasphemy" means to speak against what the LORD God has said. In this case, you deny, you speak against that which God promised. He promised what you deny, and this questions His promise of keeping the promises of the covents to Israel(not you-you are not Israel)-very simple, sir.

Excuse me JM but you are very hard to understand. Did you proof read this paragraph. It really doesn't make sense.

I did not deny what you call the literal kingdom promise. I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of His kingdom today. So how am I denying that which God has promised? I believe that the kingdom of Christ is a literal kingdom and all things are placed under his power and authority today. (Matt 28:18) Don't you believe what Matt 28:18 says, JM?

In fact I could say the same thing about you. You are denying that the kingdom of God is in effect today when the Bible clearly tells us that when we believe the gospel we are translated into the kingdom of Christ today.(Col 1:13) So now who is blaspheming the Lord?

GLJCA

JMWHALEN · Dec 29, 2005

GLJCA said:
Excuse me JM but you are very hard to understand. Did you proof read this paragraph. It really doesn't make sense.

I did not deny what you call the literal kingdom promise. I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of His kingdom today. So how am I denying that which God has promised? I believe that the kingdom of Christ is a literal kingdom and all things are placed under his power and authority today. (Matt 28:18) Don't you believe what Matt 28:18 says, JM?

In fact I could say the same thing about you. You are denying that the kingdom of God is in effect today when the Bible clearly tells us that when we believe the gospel we are translated into the kingdom of Christ today.(Col 1:13) So now who is blaspheming the Lord?

GLJCA

__

"Yes, this is good. I am mean spirited, intolerant, judgmental, 'unchristian' and yet I am the one that had to talk to you about taking cheap shots. I am the one who said that your christianity is showing. The reason that you call me mean spirited is because I am telling you something that you don't want to hear. I am telling you that Dispensationalism is false teaching."

My comment: Again, do not confuse your lack of reading comprehension skills for error on the part of what I wrote. My comment was directed at those, such as yourself, who make the charge of "your christianity is showing"-confusing judging false doctine, such as yours, with judging people-confusing tolerating the person vs. tolerating false doctrine(rationality). I was not calling you "mean spirited, intolerant, 'unchristian'.., sir. Again, this was directed at your comment of me as "your christianity is showing." Read slower.

"Excuse me JM but you are very hard to understand. Did you proof read this paragraph. It really doesn't make sense"

My comment: It does not make sense to you.

"I did not deny what you call the literal kingdom promise. I believe that Jesus Christ is the King of His kingdom today. So how am I denying that which God has promised? I believe that the kingdom of Christ is a literal kingdom and all things are placed under his power and authority today. (Matt 28:18) Don't you believe what Matt 28:18 says, JM?

In fact I could say the same thing about you. You are denying that the kingdom of God is in effect today when the Bible clearly tells us that when we believe the gospel we are translated into the kingdom of Christ today.(Col 1:13) So now who is blaspheming the Lord? "

My comment: Again, failure to rightly divide. You do deny a literal, physical, kingdom of land on earth to Jews. The body of Christ will reign in the heavenlies, not on earth. The Lord Jesus Christ is not reigning physically on earth today-we live in a Christ-rejecting world. Satan is the "god of this world" today, and if you cannot see this, and not believe what Paul, your apostle is telling you, by command from the risen, ascended, glorified, and yes, exiled Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, not on earth, I will let you "be ignorant"(biblically, 'ignorant' does not mean 'stupid'-it means 'lack of knowledge') But He will. I cannot make you see this, nor Eph. 3:9. You cannot, and will not, distinguish between the spiritual kingdom of God, and the literal, earthly, physical kingdom of heaven on earth. The Jews were promised a literal, physical reign on earth under the Lord Jesus Christ(He will be reigning physically from Jerusalem) in resurrected bodies(as will Daniel, which you still "don't get"). This has not happened, but will happen, in spite of your disbelief. You have no land promise on this earth-none. The curse of Genesis will be lifted, and we will experience "the days of heaven upon the earth"(Deut. 11:21), "the times of refreshing"(acts 3:19), including "...the times of restitution of all things"(Acts 3:21), and this "all things" includes the restoration of both the earth and the heavenlies under the LORD God's control. The Holy Spirit is very particular in His choice of words: "In the beginning God create the heaven and the earth.", not "universe". The LORD God's purpose in Christ Jesus is to restore dominion/control of both spheres, and has designated the earth for the Jews, and the heavenlies for the body of Christ.

"I am telling you that Dispensationalism is false teaching."

My comment: You are "...as one that beateth the air"1 Cor. 9:26), and you have "added nothing to me"(Gal. 2:6). You have been shown. See you at the judgment seat of Christ. Tick, tick, tick....

In Christ,

John M Whalen

biblebeliever123 · Dec 29, 2005

Amen, brother jmwhalen...

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Good thing to know and understand if it's God's measure..

By the by JM...I have really enjoyed and been blessed by your very insightful posts...wow.. your application of 2 Timothy 2:15 is very apparent !

biblebeliever123 · Dec 29, 2005

Amen, brother jmwhalen...

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Good thing to know and understand since it's God's measure.

By the by JM...I have really enjoyed and been blessed by your very insightful posts...wow... your application of 2 Timothy 2:15 is very apparent !

eph3Nine · Dec 29, 2005

biblebeliever123 said:
Amen, brother jmwhalen...

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Good thing to know and understand if it's God's measure..

By the by JM...I have really enjoyed and been blessed by your very insightful posts...wow.. your application of 2 Timothy 2:15 is very apparent !

When I first realized the IMPORT of the words in that ONE verse, I was astounded at how I had MISSED IT! God will judge us by Jesus Christ according to WHOSE GOSPEL??????? Pauls gospel...well looky there...in black and white!!

Gods measure will be the gospel HE GAVE to Paul for US! So all the naysaying and dancing around arguing that God didnt have two programs, and God didnt give Paul anything different than He did to Peter, and all that silliness wont ammount to a hill of beans when push comes to shove. So...you who enjoy the sarcasm and mutilation of Gods Word when He clearly told ya to "rightly divide it" will NOT be having such a good time at our expense at THAT time.

Something to think about.

GLJCA · Dec 30, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
__

My comment: Again, failure to rightly divide. You do deny a literal, physical, kingdom of land on earth to Jews. The body of Christ will reign in the heavenlies, not on earth. The Lord Jesus Christ is not reigning physically on earth today-we live in a Christ-rejecting world. Satan is the "god of this world" today, and if you cannot see this, and not believe what Paul, your apostle is telling you, by command from the risen, ascended, glorified, and yes, exiled Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, not on earth, I will let you "be ignorant"(biblically, 'ignorant' does not mean 'stupid'-it means 'lack of knowledge') But He will. I cannot make you see this, nor Eph. 3:9. You cannot, and will not, distinguish between the spiritual kingdom of God, and the literal, earthly, physical kingdom of heaven on earth. The Jews were promised a literal, physical reign on earth under the Lord Jesus Christ(He will be reigning physically from Jerusalem) in resurrected bodies(as will Daniel, which you still "don't get"). This has not happened, but will happen, in spite of your disbelief. You have no land promise on this earth-none. The curse of Genesis will be lifted, and we will experience "the days of heaven upon the earth"(Deut. 11:21), "the times of refreshing"(acts 3:19), including "...the times of restitution of all things"(Acts 3:21), and this "all things" includes the restoration of both the earth and the heavenlies under the LORD God's control. The Holy Spirit is very particular in His choice of words: "In the beginning God create the heaven and the earth.", not "universe". The LORD God's purpose in Christ Jesus is to restore dominion/control of both spheres, and has designated the earth for the Jews, and the heavenlies for the body of Christ.

Again you err in your thinking of what I believe. I do not deny the literal land promise given to the House of Israel. I do however see in the New Testament that the land promise was given to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ and because of that those who believe in Christ are heirs of that promise and many other promises. It also shows in the NT that the land promise was expanded to the whole world. When you jump from the Old Testament scriptures directly to Revelation you miss what is written about who is the recipient of the promises today.

The Lord Jesus Christ is not reigning physically on earth today-we live in a Christ-rejecting world.

So in saying that you are saying that you do not believe what the Bible says in Matt 28:18, right? The Bible says that ALL things are placed under His power and authority today. The Bible says that Christ is seated on David's throne at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool.

Satan is the "god of this world" today, and if you cannot see this, and not believe what Paul, your apostle is telling you, by command from the risen, ascended, glorified, and yes, exiled Lord Jesus Christ from heaven, not on earth, I will let you "be ignorant"(biblically, 'ignorant' does not mean 'stupid'-it means 'lack of knowledge') But He will.

Jesus at His death, burial, and resurrection defeated Satan and went into the strong man's house and ravaged it. Jesus took the keys to death and hell from Satan. He also took Satan's ability to deceive the nations so that the gospel of Jesus Christ has free reign. If all power is given to Christ in heaven and earth then how could you believe that Satan is the god of this world? If Satan is the god of this world then you have no power over him yet we are told that he has no power over us for it we resist him he will flee from us. God is in complete control of everything. Can you name one thing God does not have control over?

I am sorry but when you are believing something that requires you to deny what the Word of God clearly says and lower Christ from His throne to a position of exile is the height of ignorance, JM. The sad thing is that I don't think that you realize what you are doing, but you will one day.

GLJCA

GLJCA · Dec 31, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
(Continued)

"By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance(my emphasis-in the resurrection, as confirmed in Daniel 12:13=his "lot=his land inheritance in a resurrected body), obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went." Hebrews 11:8

In Matt 22:31 & 32 the Lord Jesus Christ, speaking to unbelieving Sadducees, connects God and Abraham to prove/confirm the doctrine of the resurrection.

"But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living"(resurrection-my emphasis).

Daniel 12:13: "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest(in death), and stand in thy lot at the end of the days"(in resurrection attain the land inheritance-my emphasis).

Matt 8:11: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven"(resurrected in the land of "the kingdom of heaven"-my emphasis).

Daniel 2:44: " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom(my emphasis-a kingdom is set up by force=a violent, sudden event with great force, while the body of Christ is being "built up"=a gradual, process-1 Cor. 3:9-11, Col. 2:7, Eph. 2:20-22), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

No one can sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, unless they are raised from the dead.

· Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cutoff or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week.
· After Messiahs death, the Temple and city are destroyed, 37 years later.
· The 70th week is not in the context of their destruction.
· Following the death of Messiah the prince the Temple is destroyed, but in the 70th week, a 7-year covenant is confirmed requiring a Temple for sacrifice. Therefore, a future Temple is required.
· Daniel 9:27 indicates the Prince who is to come is a covenant breaker, not a covenant keeper. To break a covenant puts the covenant breaker under the curse of the agreement. The Lord Jesus Christ would not break a covenant he confirmed.
· Daniel 9:26 indicates the Prince who is to come is future, and the people who destroy the city as precursors to the prince who would come following the death of Messiah the prince.
· If there were no time gap, then the 490 years would be complete leaving the 490-years unfulfilled, because the period was determined on Daniels people and city, the Jews and Jerusalem. The Jews and Jerusalem have not yet experienced the events of Daniel 9:24.
· The word determine means, dividing, the time was divided on Jerusalem and the Jews, meaning the 490-years are segmented ( 7 weeks+ 62 weeks + 1 week= 70 weeks).
· The stopping of the sacrifice and offering at the Temple causes Gods judgment not blessing. The word consummation means complete destruction, this destruction poured out on the desolate, results from the abomination on the Temple. Therefore, this event is separate from the Lord Jesus Christs death and covenant.

Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cut off or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week. The abomination of desolation appears in the midst of the future 70th week of Daniel according to Daniel 9:27.
Many argue that the Lord Jesus Christ is killed in the middle of the week, i.e., that would mean that Daniels 70th week had its middle at the Lord Jesus Christ's death.
Again, the stopping of the sacrifice and offering at the Temple causes Gods judgment not blessing. The word consummation means complete destruction, this destruction poured out on the desolate, results from the abomination on the Temple. Therefore, this event is separate from Christs death and covenant.
It is the abomination that maketh desolate ( Daniel 12:11), not the Lord Jesus Christs work on the cross that makes desolation .
So, the interpretation of this presentation- does not that make the work of the cross an abomination? It is NOT on account of the abomination that we NEED a desolation in Daniel 9:27, but, it is the abomination itself which causes desolation-Daniel 12:11.

Daniel 9:27 indicates the Prince who is to come is a covenant breaker, not a covenant keeper. Again, to break a covenant puts the covenant breaker under the curse of the agreement. The Lord Jesus Christ breaking a covenant he confirmed? Breaking an everlasting covenant? And "the New Covenant"cannot be confirmed until there is a shedding of blood!

Again, one of the biggest fallacies concerning Christian interpretation of this passage is the assumption that the 1 week covenant is referring to the covenant of the new testament made in the blood of Messiah at the time of His death. But this covenant has nothing to do with the covenant made by the Lord Jesus Christ, for the covenant in Christ's blood is first off, eternal, not just 7 years long. Secondly, since the alleged new covenant was not made until He died on the cross, the covenant would not have began until after He died, which would cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease at the beginning of it, not in the middle of it. Likewise, in Scripture, no covenant is valid or in force until blood has been shed to confirm the covenant. Accordingly, the Lord Jesus Christ cannot die in the middle of a 7 year covenant to bring an end to sacrifices and offerings if that covenant did not begin until He died.

"If you have input concerning the timeline then let's hear it, if not then you should bow out of the discussion, like you said you were. I promise I will not go looking for your input if you bow out of this discussion.
"If you can't show that the timeline is wrong by showing that the 483 years from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the baptism of Christ is not correct, then you have no recourse but to either change your belief or ignore God's perfect timing. If you can't show that the ministry of Christ was not 3.5 years, or that the disciples did not confirm the covenant to the Jews for another 3.5 years making the 490 years Daniel wrote about, then the timeline is correct.
It was timed perfectly by God and Jesus could not start his ministry until the time had come"

My comment:And you have no recourse if you continue to assume your erroneous premises, and ignore the promises of the covenants made to the JEWS, not you. You need to change your doctrine and your timeline to fit scripture, not vica versa. You cannot show that the Lord Jesus Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 years, and that the disciples for 3 1/2 years after the death, burial and resurrection confirmed "the New Covenant", and he did not break any 7 year covenant, the disciples were to be the beneficiaries of "The New Covenant" Of Jeremiah 31, WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED, not the confirmers, and.....(the preceding). His ministry was to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, and these promises were not fulfilled as yet, and certainly not in the 70th week.

"if not then you should bow out of the discussion, like you said you were. I promise I will not go looking for your input if you bow out of this discussion. "

My comment: I will bow out now, but I suggest you "fold". The LORD God is not done with "the nation of Israel as the people of God." will "restore the kingdom to Israel", the focus of Daniel, and the Jews will be resurrected physically before this 70th week is completed, despite your assertions/premises to the contrary.

"...What I have written I have written..." John 19:22

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

God's Covenant of Friendship with Abraham(James 2:23) was a blood covenant, a covenant sealed in blood. All these blood-sacrifices were consummated and terminated when the Lord Jesus offered His own spotless life and precious blood to God in our place and for--us to bring us life. His blood is the
divine-human blood of the everlasting covenant.

What is interesting is that Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the New Covenant, which you did not bring out here. If it is the blood of the NC then if it doesn't apply to you then you are lost in your sin without hope in this world.

(resurrection-my emphasis).

It seems your emphasis is assuming a lot upon scripture that isn't there. A Dispensationalist has to explain or in your case emphasize what the scripture is saying by adding to the context because without the emphasis one can not get that meaning from those verses. Such as:
Daniel 12:13: "But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest(in death), and stand in thy lot at the end of the days"(in resurrection attain the land inheritance-my emphasis).
There is no inference to resurrection at all in that verse until you put it there. You have to add this emphasis for your view to be valid. Here is what Matthew Henry says concerning the verse that you have interpreted so loosely.
We must every one of us stand in our lot at the end of the days. In the judgment of the great day we must have our allotment according to what we were, and what we did, in the body, either, Come, you blessed or, Go, you cursed; and we must stand for ever in that lot.
Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The prophecy was to be sealed or kept hidden until the time of the end yet Christ revealed the prophecy in Matt 24. It seems that the interpretation of Dispensationalism is inconsistent with scripture. So do you believe that Daniel was resurrected in the first century?

GLJCA

GLJCA · Dec 31, 2005

JMWHALEN said:
(Continued)
Those who argue, there is no gap between the 69th and 70th week argue the He who confirms the covenant in 70th week is the Lord Jesus Christ, who with his death after 3 ½ years of ministry caused the Temple sacrifice and offering to cease, because they no longer served a purpose.
This interpretation contrives the text to say what it does not. There are several reasons a time-gap is clearly in the context of Daniels Seventy weeks.

· Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cutoff or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week.
· After Messiahs death, the Temple and city are destroyed, 37 years later.
· The 70th week is not in the context of their destruction.
· Following the death of Messiah the prince the Temple is destroyed, but in the 70th week, a 7-year covenant is confirmed requiring a Temple for sacrifice. Therefore, a future Temple is required.
· Daniel 9:27 indicates the Prince who is to come is a covenant breaker, not a covenant keeper. To break a covenant puts the covenant breaker under the curse of the agreement. The Lord Jesus Christ would not break a covenant he confirmed.
· Daniel 9:26 indicates the Prince who is to come is future, and the people who destroy the city as precursors to the prince who would come following the death of Messiah the prince.
· If there were no time gap, then the 490 years would be complete leaving the 490-years unfulfilled, because the period was determined on Daniels people and city, the Jews and Jerusalem. The Jews and Jerusalem have not yet experienced the events of Daniel 9:24.
· The word determine means, dividing, the time was divided on Jerusalem and the Jews, meaning the 490-years are segmented ( 7 weeks+ 62 weeks + 1 week= 70 weeks).
· The stopping of the sacrifice and offering at the Temple causes Gods judgment not blessing. The word consummation means complete destruction, this destruction poured out on the desolate, results from the abomination on the Temple. Therefore, this event is separate from the Lord Jesus Christs death and covenant.

Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cut off or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week. The abomination of desolation appears in the midst of the future 70th week of Daniel according to Daniel 9:27.
Many argue that the Lord Jesus Christ is killed in the middle of the week, i.e., that would mean that Daniels 70th week had its middle at the Lord Jesus Christ's death.
Again, the stopping of the sacrifice and offering at the Temple causes Gods judgment not blessing. The word consummation means complete destruction, this destruction poured out on the desolate, results from the abomination on the Temple. Therefore, this event is separate from Christs death and covenant.
It is the abomination that maketh desolate ( Daniel 12:11), not the Lord Jesus Christs work on the cross that makes desolation .
So, the interpretation of this presentation- does not that make the work of the cross an abomination? It is NOT on account of the abomination that we NEED a desolation in Daniel 9:27, but, it is the abomination itself which causes desolation-Daniel 12:11.

Daniel 9:27 indicates the Prince who is to come is a covenant breaker, not a covenant keeper. Again, to break a covenant puts the covenant breaker under the curse of the agreement. The Lord Jesus Christ breaking a covenant he confirmed? Breaking an everlasting covenant? And "the New Covenant"cannot be confirmed until there is a shedding of blood!

Again, one of the biggest fallacies concerning Christian interpretation of this passage is the assumption that the 1 week covenant is referring to the covenant of the new testament made in the blood of Messiah at the time of His death. But this covenant has nothing to do with the covenant made by the Lord Jesus Christ, for the covenant in Christ's blood is first off, eternal, not just 7 years long. Secondly, since the alleged new covenant was not made until He died on the cross, the covenant would not have began until after He died, which would cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease at the beginning of it, not in the middle of it. Likewise, in Scripture, no covenant is valid or in force until blood has been shed to confirm the covenant. Accordingly, the Lord Jesus Christ cannot die in the middle of a 7 year covenant to bring an end to sacrifices and offerings if that covenant did not begin until He died.

My comment:And you have no recourse if you continue to assume your erroneous premises, and ignore the promises of the covenants made to the JEWS, not you. You need to change your doctrine and your timeline to fit scripture, not vica versa. You cannot show that the Lord Jesus Christ's ministry was 3 1/2 years, and that the disciples for 3 1/2 years after the death, burial and resurrection confirmed "the New Covenant", and he did not break any 7 year covenant, the disciples were to be the beneficiaries of "The New Covenant" Of Jeremiah 31, WHICH HAS NOT HAPPENED, not the confirmers, and.....(the preceding). His ministry was to confirm the promises made unto the fathers, and these promises were not fulfilled as yet, and certainly not in the 70th week.

This interpretation contrives the text to say what it does not.

I disagree. This interpretation brings out what the scriptures says without me having to put in my "emphasis" to make it say what I want. Christ's sacrifice put an end to the daily sacrifice. There is no reference to anyone being a covenant breaker in these verses but Christ did confirm his New Covenant with the Jews for one week they rejected it and therefore the apostles brought it to the Gentiles. They are the covenant breakers God isn't, His covenant is still with the remnant, the Church, the olive tree.

After Messiahs death, the Temple and city are destroyed, 37 years later.

There are seven princes talked about in Daniel.

The first is talking about a prince of eunuchs(1:18) which I doubt is this so called AntiChrist.

The second one is talking about a prince in chapter 8. The interpretation of this vision by an angel, showing that the ram signified the Persian empire, the he-goat the Grecian, and the little horn a king of the Grecian monarchy, that should set himself against the Jews and religion, which was Antiochus Epiphanes.

The third and fourth princes are the same one. In 8:25 the Prince of Princes and the Messiah the Prince found in 9:25 are the same Prince, which is God himself.

The fifth one is the prince of Persia which is speaking of Cambyses king of Persia who was doing so much mischief to the Jews that it hindered the archangel from getting the answer to Daniel's prayer to him.

The sixth is the Micheal the prince which we know is speaking of the archangel.

Then in Daniel 11 the seventh prince is the prince of the covenant which again is speaking of Antiochus Epiphanes who also stood in the temple and sacrificed a pig on the altar of God, which is the abomination of desolation about which Daniel prophesied.

· Daniel 9:26 indicates Messiah the prince will be cutoff or killed at the end to the end of the 69th week.
· After Messiahs death, the Temple and city are destroyed, 37 years later.

Again whoever wrote this has twisted the Word of God to fit his agenda. Since the timeline from the rebuilding of Jerusalem to the baptism of Christ was perfectly 69 weeks or 483 years, which is exactly what was foretold, then it is perfectly logical that the one thousand two hundred and ninety days, 1290 days equals 3.5 years. "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
See I don't have to put any emphasis in the Word of God it is clear just as it is written.

Here is another of your emphasizing.

Daniel 2:44: " And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom(my emphasis-a kingdom is set up by force=a violent, sudden event with great force, while the body of Christ is being "built up"=a gradual, process-1 Cor. 3:9-11, Col. 2:7, Eph. 2:20-22), which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

The Kingdom of Christ was set up at His resurrection. It was set up by force when Christ bound the strong man (Satan) and entered into his house and ravaged his goods. Christ took the keys to death and hell from the Satan at His resurrection(Rev 1:18). His kingdom was set up at that time. He was given power and authority over all things at that time.(Matt 28:18) He is now ruling from His throne at the right hand of God and will remain there until all of His enemies are made His footstool(Acts 2:32-33). You see you guys have the chronology wrong. You say that Christ will come in the end and set up His kingdom but this is what the Bible says concerning that,
1 Cor 15:23-28 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Again notice no emphasis and yet the scripture speaks for itself. It shows clearly that at the coming of Christ He shall deliver up the kingdom to God the Father, not set it up. That will not come until all of His enemies have been placed under His feet. At that time death and hell will be cast into the lake of fire as the last enemy to be defeated is death. The pure Word of God reveals the false teaching of Dispensationalism again.

GLJCA

JMWHALEN · Dec 31, 2005

re. GLJCA comments
_____________

underline/bold is my emphasis:

"So in saying that you are saying that you do not believe what the Bible says in Matt 28:18, right? The Bible says that ALL things are placed under His power and authority today. The Bible says that Christ is seated on David's throne at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool. "

My comment:

Again, sir, stop the "kindergarten stuff, and stop the misquoting.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.' John 8:56

What was Abraham "rejoiced to see"? The Lord Jesus Christ tells us in Mt. 25:31:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory..."

Abraham was looking to "that day" when the covenants with him would be fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ when He returns to earth in glory.

Note the order in Mt. 25:31 and when this verse is fulfilled. The Lord Jesus Christ has to return to earth "in his glory." Accompanying him will be "all the holy angels." Neither of these has yet to occur. "Then" He shall "sit upon his throne of glory." Is "then" other than a time word indicating future? Could "His throne of glory" be David's throne? Or does Christ have another throne, besides David's throne? And where is this "throne of glory?" Since the Lord Jesus Christ is coming to earth, it must therefore be on earth. From there he will judge the nations as the following verses in Mt. 25 indicate.

"The Bible says that Christ is seated on David's throne at the right hand of the Father until His enemies are made His footstool. "

My comment: WRONG. Show me where it says in Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ is sitting on David's throne in heaven right now?(rhetorical question-no need to embarrass yourself further) He's in heaven all right, but not on David's throne.

Nothing in Scripture says Christ is currently functioning as Lord of lords and King of kings. That will happen after His return to earth in wrath, power and glory. The fact is, you are robbing Israel of their program and telling God He is wrong when He says that Irael will be restored to glory and will then be a blessing to the whole earth. The Body of Christ is not, nor will ever be Israel, no matter how much effort and twisting of Scripture is done to attempt to prove it.

You continue to attempt to synthesize all of Scripture to fit your view. And you, sir, are plainly in defiance of what the Scriptures teach. That is why there is so much confusion in the Body when the clear and plain word must be spiritualized to make it fit. Right division is the answer, as well as recognizing the authority of Paul's message and ministry. Where in the Abrahamic covenant is a king promised and covenanted with Abraham? Abraham was promised a "great nation" through whom all the world would be blessed. We receive blessings by being Abraham's seed, not a king.

The Lord Jesus Christ did not teach His disciples a gap would occur in their program, for the Kingdom was yet to be offered three times in the early Acts period. When the Nation of Israel rejected God the Holy Spirit (they had already rejected God the Father and God the Son), which coincided which the rejection of the third offer of the Kingdom, then God temporarily set aside His "prophetic" program with Israel and raised up the apostle Paul through whom He revealed His "mystery" program for today. If you fail to understand this, then you will remain confused and confounded-and you display this in every single post.

"If all power is given to Christ in heaven and earth then how could you believe that Satan is the god of this world? If Satan is the god of this world then you have no power over him yet we are told that he has no power over us for it we resist him he will flee from us. God is in complete control of everything. Can you name one thing God does not have control over?

I am sorry but when you are believing something that requires you to deny what the Word of God clearly says and lower Christ from His throne to a position of exile is the height of ignorance, JM. The sad thing is that I don't think that you realize what you are doing, but you will one day."

http://www.enjoythebible.org/ebq/all%20power.html

My comment: No, you are sad because you do not "see" Eph. 3:9, and you do not rightly divide this Holy Bible. I trust in the Lord Jesus Christ in this dispensation as Head of the Body, rather than King of Israel. The Lord Jesus Christ will be King over the Messianic Kingdom when He returns at His second advent, which is yet future. The Lord Jesus Christ did not come as king in His first advent, but as Saviour and Deliverer, which is what Messiah means. Covenantalists preach Christ's offices as prophet, priest and king, but He has more offices than that. I am not "lower(ing) Christ from His throne to a position of exile"-that is scripture's teaching, which you "spiritualize" away. Again, nothing in Scripture says the Lord Jesus Christ is currently functioning as Lord of lords and King of kings. That will happen after His return to earth in wrath, power and glory. The fact is, you are robbing Israel of their program and telling God He is wrong when He says that Irael will be restored to glory and will then be a blessing to the whole earth. The Body of Christ is not, nor will ever be Israel, no matter how much effort and twisting of Scripture is done to attempt to prove it.

The Lord Jesus Christ is not exerting "all power in heaven and in earth" today, despite your assertion. The king was rejected, and the LORD God interrupted the prophetic program. The Lord Jesus Christ is in exile with God the Father "til" all His enemies are put under His feet. That does not say He doesn't not have the power, but He is not exerting that power today. Satan is called the prince of the power of the earth, and the god of this world. The dominion of both the heaven and the earth was lost to Satan, which you just "don't get." The only way Christ is King on David's throne is if we are in the Messianic Kingdom right now, and we're not, despite your "spiritualization" There will be a literal kingdom, a literal king, on earth, ruling from Jerusalem, with Israel as the head nation. The body of Christ has no part in this.

You tear Romans through Philemon right out the Holy bible.. At a minimum, you marginalize this section of Scripture that applies to today and would rather pretend that you are somehow a "warmed over Israel." I recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as "Head" of the Body of Christ, rather than King over Israel. We have a personal relationship with Christ, as our Head, and are co-heirs with Him. How can someone be a co-heir with your King? Impossible. We are not subjects, but adopted sons, and thus HEIRS. Only by ignoring a significant body of Scripute, or twisting it to fit your dogma, can someone be a co-heir with the King.

The Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God, therefore He is currently on God the Father's throne. The Lord Jesus Christ is in exile until He returns in wrath and power. He will not be on His own throne until His return to earth to reclaim His earthly Kingdom. That's when the Lord Jesus literally sets His feet back on the Mount of Olives, as the angel in Acts 1 indicates.

Regarding the throne, the Lord Jesus Christ made a promise to His disciples that "... in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel"(Mt. 19:28). Amillennialists would have us believe this refers to the Lord Jesus Christ sitting at the right hand of God. If this is true, then the twelve must have been seated with Him at that time on their thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. But we know that at the time the twelve were hiding behind locked doors or were in prison. Therefore, if the Lord Jesus Christs promise is to be fulfilled, it will be sometime in the future. Premillennialists understand the regeneration" to refer to that time of renewal and restoration spoken of by all the OT prophets. This is referred to as the Messianic or Millennial Kingdom of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the same time Peter in Acts 3:19 told the men of Israel about when he said"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord." Notice that Israel's sins wont be blotted out until this time of refreshing- so no Day of Atonement until that day.

Peter goes ahead and says in verses 20, 21: "And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hat spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." Of course, the Lord Jesus Christ tells Peter, James and John: Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. (Mt. 17:11).

First, note Peter said nothing about them believing that Christ died for their sins(1 Cor. 15:1-4), only to repent and be converted. This is not the body of Christ's message, no matter how you parse the words. Secondly, this is all future and requires a return of Elias, before Christ sets up His literal, earthly kingdom in the millennium.

The Lord Jesus Christ taught in Luke 19:11-27, by parable, that He was going to a far country, eg. Heaven. He was going to that far country, not to establish a kingdom, but to receive authority for a kingdom, then to return and establish His kingdom. Contrary to what Amillennialists, and Postmillennialists for that matter, teach, the Lord Jesus Christ taught that His return will result in the establishment of His kingdom. Then what is stated in Rev. 5:10 will occur: the Jewish saints shall reign on the earth, with the Lord Jesus Christ on His throne. This has no reference to the body of Christ, which will reign in the heavenlies.

The Lord Jesus Christ's throne
"And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom." Mt. 20:21
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev. 3:21
vs.
God the Father's throne
"Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places," Eph. 1:20
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:." Eph. 1:3
"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." Eph. 2:6

=Members of the Body of Christ will with the Lord Jesus Christ in the heavenlies upon God the Father's throne, but kingdom members will sit upon the Lord Jesus Christ's throne on earth.

The kingdom: set up suddenly, violently by force: Daniel 2:44; Jer. 33:15; Mt. 11:12, 24:27; Mal. 3:1; Is. 11:4, 19:1; John 6:15; Revelation/a literal, eternal kingdom, in which location is earth: Deut. 11:21........(to many references)/eartthly kingdom promised only to Israel: 2 Sam. 7:12-16; Jer. 30:4-12; Luke 1:32, 12:32; Mt. 21:43, 25:34; Acts 3:19-21-"That your days may be multiplied, and the days of your children, in the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers to give them, as the days of heaven upon the earth." Deut. 11:21/prepared from the foundation of the world: Mt. 13:35, 25:34; Luke 11:50, and spoken about since the world began: Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24/Jesus Christ is "King of the Jews". "King of Israel"(too many references)/waiting for a kingdom: Hebrews 12:28/ believers' relationship: king-subject-servant/an outward, earthly, political organization to be set up/ushering in of the kingdom will be preceded by wrath and tribulation(too many references)/"having received the kingdom"(Luke 19:15), enter into the kingdom of heaven"(Mt. 18:3), "inherit the kingdom"(Mt. 25:34)
vs.
The church, the body of Christ: is being built up gradually- a process: 1 Cor. 3:9-11; Col. 2:7; Eph. 2:20-22/location is heavenly places: Eph. 1:3,10,20, 2:6; Philiippians 1:3,20; Col. 1:5, 3:1-4; 2 Cor. 5:20; 1 Cor. 6:3/chosen in Him before the foundation of the world: Eph. 1:4; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 2:7, and kept secret, hidden, since the world began: Romans 16:25; Eph. 3:5,9; Col. 1:26; 1 Cor. 2:7/ called: a house- 1 Tim. 3:15, a temple-1 Cor. 3:16,17, 6:19; Eph. 2:22; a building-1 Cor. 3:9; but never called a kingdom/Jesus Christ is "the head of the body": Eph. 1:22, 4:15, 5:23; Col. 1:18, 2:19/looking "for that blessed hope": Titus 2:13; 1 Thes. 1:10, 2:19; Romans 8:11,23; /believers' relationship:head/member: Romans 12:4,5; 1 Cor. 6:15, 12:12-27; Eph. 4:25, 5:30-32=a joint union /an invisible, spiritual organism to be "caught up"/members of the body of Christ have been delivered from the wrath to come: Romans 5:9; 1 Thes. 1:10, 4:13-5:11; Gal. 1:4/no such language as "receive the church", "enter the church", "inherit the church"...

Therefore, as the Lord Jesus Christ stated, His kingdom reign will occur at a later date. As a result, the throne of David is yet unoccupied. To believe anything else is to spiritualize otherwise clear Scripture.

"What is interesting is that Jesus said that his blood was the blood of the New Covenant, which you did not bring out here. If it is the blood of the NC then if it doesn't apply to you then you are lost in your sin without hope in this world."

My comment: I have the righteousness of God-you can bring no charges against me,sir. Having freedom of speech allows everyone the opportunity to be a jerk on occasion, as you just demonstrated. I have told you where I believe you have a wrong understanding, but I don't question your salvation. My testimony regarding salvation by blood is on record. Your charge is Satanic, and deserves no response. Thus, I will no longer discuss issues with you, given this statement. "The sad thing is" that I know that you realize what you are doing-you fail to rightly divide this Holy Bible. You are a rebel against the Lord Jesus Christ's appointed spokesman for this dispensation, Paul. Just as the Jews withstood Moses, man continues to rebel against authority- Eccl. 1:9. But you will one day be ashamed(2 Timothy 2:15) at the judgment seat-tick, tick, tick. You, sir, are indeed ignorant, and will be avoided-Romans 16:17.

In Christ,
John M. Whalen

Jerrysch · Dec 31, 2005

Ebb said:
How do you get around this verse?

34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Matthew 24:34

The truth which this verse teaches is to be found in the meaning of its words, the word under question is rendered "generation" in the KJV, its meaning can be discovered at; http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1074&version=kjv

The meaning which the KJV suggests is listed as the fourth meaning of this word. I would suggest that the KJV is not as careful in this translation as it should have been.

GLJCA · Jan 2, 2006

Jerrysch said:
The truth which this verse teaches is to be found in the meaning of its words, the word under question is rendered "generation" in the KJV, its meaning can be discovered at; http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1074&version=kjv

The meaning which the KJV suggests is listed as the fourth meaning of this word. I would suggest that the KJV is not as careful in this translation as it should have been.

GENERATION
2. the whole multitude of men living at the same time
3. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Two and three both can be used, but even if we took the fourth meaning of the word it still shows that the generation living at that time would not pass away until the things that Christ was saying came to pass.

I think the keyword even more than generation is the word "this". Jesus was referring to that generation living at that time. Therefore Matt 24 can not be speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. It is speaking of something that was going to happen in their lifetime, namely the destruction of Jerusalem.

The coming of Christ in the clouds is referring to His coming in judgement just as it did throughout all of the OT prophecies that used the same phrase. Prophecy should not be interpreted without comparing it to Old Testament prophecy. Scripture should interpret scripture. Here are a few of the verses that I am talking about.
Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.
Jer 4:13 Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots [shall be] as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.
Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
Nah 1:3 The LORD [is] slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit [the wicked]: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds [are] the dust of his feet.

Those who interpret it differently have no basis for their interpretation and can not tell you why they interpret it as the Second Coming. I have asked before, What basis does the Dispensationalist have to determine what is literal and what is figurative in New Testament prophecy?

GLJCA

eph3Nine · Jan 2, 2006

J Whalen said:

The Lord Jesus Christ is not exerting "all power in heaven and in earth" today, despite your assertion. The king was rejected, and the LORD God interrupted the prophetic program. The Lord Jesus Christ is in exile with God the Father "til" all His enemies are put under His feet. That does not say He doesn't not have the power, but He is not exerting that power today. Satan is called the prince of the power of the earth, and the god of this world. The dominion of both the heaven and the earth was lost to Satan, which you just "don't get." The only way Christ is King on David's throne is if we are in the Messianic Kingdom right now, and we're not, despite your "spiritualization" There will be a literal kingdom, a literal king, on earth, ruling from Jerusalem, with Israel as the head nation. The body of Christ has no part in this.

You tear Romans through Philemon right out the Holy bible.. At a minimum, you marginalize this section of Scripture that applies to today and would rather pretend that you are somehow a "warmed over Israel." I recognize the Lord Jesus Christ as "Head" of the Body of Christ, rather than King over Israel. We have a personal relationship with Christ, as our Head, and are co-heirs with Him. How can someone be a co-heir with your King? Impossible. We are not subjects, but adopted sons, and thus HEIRS. Only by ignoring a significant body of Scripute, or twisting it to fit your dogma, can someone be a co-heir with the King.

The Lord Jesus Christ is seated at the right hand of God, therefore He is currently on God the Father's throne. The Lord Jesus Christ is in exile until He returns in wrath and power. He will not be on His own throne until His return to earth to reclaim His earthly Kingdom. That's when the Lord Jesus literally sets His feet back on the Mount of Olives, as the angel in Acts 1 indicates.

Aaaaamen, John. I cannot for the life of me wonder at how folks can think that Jesus is already reigning and ruling....geeesh, if thats true, He is sure doing one awful job of it, dontcha think? MY bible says that satan is the god of this world, this present evil age. God indeed has a plan to re establish His rule and reign of both of the realms He created and WILL do so , just as He has said.

Israel will be the channel of blessing for the earth, and WE, the body of Christ will be ruling in the heavenlies, over angels no less...yeeeee haw.

holdon · Jan 2, 2006

GLJCA said:
GENERATION
2. the whole multitude of men living at the same time
3. an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 - 33 years

Two and three both can be used, but even if we took the fourth meaning of the word it still shows that the generation living at that time would not pass away until the things that Christ was saying came to pass.

I think the keyword even more than generation is the word "this". Jesus was referring to that generation living at that time. Therefore Matt 24 can not be speaking of the Second Coming of Christ. It is speaking of something that was going to happen in their lifetime, namely the destruction of Jerusalem.

"This generation" refers to a certain moral class of people. See Philippians 2:15 for instance:

"that ye may be harmless and simple, irreproachable children of God in the midst of a crooked and perverted generation; among whom ye appear as lights in the world, "

Daniel's 70th Week Future or Fulfilled? Pt1

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Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!

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