Discussion Daniel Kolenda explains the fallacy of the New Apostolic Reformation

GoldenKingGaze

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In this video Daniel Kolenda of CFAN explains the fallacies regarding what the New Apostolic Reformation is and isn't. He shows up some lies and ideologies and jealousy in conspiracy theories and criticisms... He describes NAR as an observation of really a trend of non denominationalism and regaining of old offices in the churches over the twentieth century until now, by C. Peter. Wagner. And not an organization, or ideology or attempt to create theocracy or counter homosexual rights...

 

Peter J Barban

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I didn't watch the video, but I wanted to comment anyway!

Years ago, I created a blog to defend the NAR, even though I wasn't part of it. I really wanted it to be from God. But as I got more info, the less I trusted them and eventually abandoned my blog.

One small warning sign that seemed big to me was they were selling cruises. You could pay the NAR a lot of money to go on a cruise with the Apostles and Prophets.

I can't believe that is consistent with the New Testament and early church.

Also, it seems you can buy a franchise and become an NAR networked prophet/apostle for your area.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I didn't watch the video, but I wanted to comment anyway!

Years ago, I created a blog to defend the NAR, even though I wasn't part of it. I really wanted it to be from God. But as I got more info, the less I trusted them and eventually abandoned my blog.

One small warning sign that seemed big to me was they were selling cruises. You could pay the NAR a lot of money to go on a cruise with the Apostles and Prophets.

I can't believe that is consistent with the New Testament and early church.

Also, it seems you can buy a franchise and become an NAR networked prophet/apostle for your area.
Could I have links to these cruise and franchise sites?
 
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Peter J Barban

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The Cruise info came straight from the NAR website, promoted by Peter Wagner himself. But that was years ago.

The franchise info came from NAR pamphlet given to a church in Taiwan, again years ago. I was interviewing to start an English congregation within a large church when I saw the pamphlets in the office? and asked if they were part of the NAR. He said no, but the NA came by and gave them the pamphlets.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The Cruise info came straight from the NAR website, promoted by Peter Wagner himself. But that was years ago.

The franchise info came from NAR pamphlet given to a church in Taiwan, again years ago. I was interviewing to start an English congregation within a large church when I saw the pamphlets in the office? and asked if they were part of the NAR. He said no, but the NA came by and gave them the pamphlets.
It seems organizations have fringe members. So when looking into the Toronto Blessing, they'd ask fringe groups questions and not John Arnott...

I have had terrible experiences with a deacon, on the fringe of what's now Hillsong.

Kolenda explains that NAR is not an organization, but that it is an observed occurrence, Smith Wigglesworth, John G Lake, Derek Prince, AA Allen, Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, John Arnott, Randy Clark and Billy Graham, to name some, are observed to have recommenced the offices of teacher, preacher, evangelist, prophet, apostles... There is no membership. But there is Elijah List for prophets to use to publish... And Global Awakening hosts Voice of the Apostles and the speakers are not members of a greater organization.

If a man is an evangelist, another person can so whatever they like and say he is NAR. As an observation or as criticism. The latter do not like the idea of Christians being authority or strong influence in politics, arts and business... But look at Trump, how many people liked that he had some faith, and how many criticized him for holding the Bible, but not knowing it well and not having that much reverence...
 
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Peter J Barban

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I thought this thread was about the fallacies of the NAR, but (after listening to a portion of the video) it is really supporting the NAR against the fallacies of others.

I cannot support the NAR in any way and felt the video speaker was being deceptive by hiding more than he is revealing.

Here is the conclusion of an NAR article by some I trust:
"Much of what the New Apostolic Reformation teaches has at least some basis in Scripture, albeit carried much further than the Bible intends. That, however, still makes those doctrines unbiblical, and Christians should flatly reject the New Apostolic Reformation’s teachings and those who choose to be associated with it."
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? | GotQuestions.org
 
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ARBITER01

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I thought this thread was about the fallacies of the NAR, but (after listening to a portion of the video) it is really supporting the NAR against the fallacies of others.

I cannot support the NAR in any way and felt the video speaker was being deceptive by hiding more than he is revealing.

Here is the conclusion of an NAR article by some I trust:
"Much of what the New Apostolic Reformation teaches has at least some basis in Scripture, albeit carried much further than the Bible intends. That, however, still makes those doctrines unbiblical, and Christians should flatly reject the New Apostolic Reformation’s teachings and those who choose to be associated with it."
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? | GotQuestions.org

As soon as I seen them deciding who was an apostle or prophet, I shut them out. It is Jesus Who decides that and gives the offices, not anyone down here.
 
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lismore

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Also, it seems you can buy a franchise and become an NAR networked prophet/apostle for your area.

I think you discerned correctly.

There's a term called Simony, it comes from this passage here when Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! (Acts 8:20)

Anything given by God is given for free, it cannot be bought.

God Bless You :)
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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As soon as I seen them deciding who was an apostle or prophet, I shut them out. It is Jesus Who decides that and gives the offices, not anyone down here.
How do you discern who is a prophet or an apostle? We sometimes need to try to know.

People here and there, must be using tests and other means.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I thought this thread was about the fallacies of the NAR, but (after listening to a portion of the video) it is really supporting the NAR against the fallacies of others.

I cannot support the NAR in any way and felt the video speaker was being deceptive by hiding more than he is revealing.

Here is the conclusion of an NAR article by some I trust:
"Much of what the New Apostolic Reformation teaches has at least some basis in Scripture, albeit carried much further than the Bible intends. That, however, still makes those doctrines unbiblical, and Christians should flatly reject the New Apostolic Reformation’s teachings and those who choose to be associated with it."
What is the New Apostolic Reformation? | GotQuestions.org
I would not trust GotQuestions.org, they may be cessationists, or half half, iron and clay. Cessationism holds a radically different means of interpreting scripture. Not just Sola Scriptura but this with the idea that the Bible is absolutely complete and is the perfect thing to come, mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10. The perfect thing to come is eschatological according to Paul's framework and context. The perfect thing I am sure is the Glory of God in the face of Christ. It will light up the whole world.

God Questions promotes false idea just discounted by Daniel Kolenda, that NAR is an organization, with leaders and union and tenets. It contradicts itself when it says they often form new groups not connected to the parent group.

So cessationist, "Biblical" is different to Catholic or Lutheran... take for example since resuscitation began millions of testimonies of seeing the light and seeing horrors in people who returned to good health, the word testimony is Biblical. Their lives are changed, they turn to Christ, one gave away millions of dollars and became a social worker. There are millions of such people just in the USA!

I read about one such Baptist lady, who expected to see the great white throne of judgement... according to her father's literal interpretation of the Bible, but instead saw Jesus, I think she'd have had a life review... Life reviews with full emotions and empathy and conscience are common. They see the effect to many places in, of every decision, word and action they made. They are filled with love and light, and not just with some sight of great architecture.

The NAR is not an organization, with common tenets, like end times wealth redistribution, and a cohesive attempt to control government and finances... Some in the pursuit of grace lived in near poverty for years.

What I typed before I read the article is still true, it is not an organization and it has no leaders, or else Daniel Kolenda, Smith Wigglesworth, Billy Graham... looking back 150 years are all NAR. NAR is just C Peter Wagner's observation, and in part, dream.

There obviously is extra-Biblical revelation, that we will all one day have. But for now it is confined to individuals who sometimes get things wrong.

If prophets go astray, they may not have always or they speak from the human spirit.

When Sola Scriptura or Lectio Divina leads to actually taking in salvation and the Spirit's power, we may gain a revelation of God, like others have, and gain revelations beyond scripture, which quite good. Rhema words and personal prophecy are just fine. Cessationsist Sola Scriptura is a hurtful bind.

I hope no people here are in cessationism or half half.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I think you discerned correctly.

There's a term called Simony, it comes from this passage here when Peter rebuked Simon the sorcerer:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! (Acts 8:20)

Anything given by God is given for free, it cannot be bought.

God Bless You :)
Fringe groups? Is there a centre? Not really, there is no organization, part of Daniel's points.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Some people call the NAR a movement. Are you OK with that term?
I will have to check with the interview with Randy Clark and watch Daniel Kolenda again.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The late Ps Bonnke and the current Ps Kolenda have been working effectively to make converts. CFAN has 80,000,000 up to now. This leads to the return of Christ, so they are at centre of God's will. Those converts are organized and given works to do. And in the north of Nigeria, they are being badly persecuted without help. The ACLJ is seeking aid. Kidnappings of school girls are also well known. There is no ministry from God of Christian watch dog. Either we are making converts or helping them become holy and successful. Or we are receiving it.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Some people call the NAR a movement. Are you OK with that term?
Movement, is a tendency or trend, more from Webster's:
: a series of organized activities working toward an objective also : an organized effort to promote or attain an end, the civil rights movement a movement to increase the minimum wage.
From wikipedia:
Religious movement, a coordinated group action focused on a religious ideology
I think Christians said to be in the NAR are left, right and centre. I am humble in my opinion of pro-choice Christians. Almost all of us want a pro-life government. I don't think normal ones want a theocracy. Maybe at most a constitutional theocracy. Some Catholics want papal ruling. But they are on the extreme.

I think the common objective of NAR are salvations, holiness, righteousness, peace, love, healing, managing well in finance, empowerment, if possible popular Christian authority and influence in government, art, business and maybe education. They don't have a pope and are not cohesive or united. They don't all agree. They seem to agree on salvation, power and ministry. That there are the Ephesians ch 4 offices again. Prophets and apostles.

Randy and his guests, Craig Keener and John Ruthven, lecturers, talk about what others say about this movement, that Randy doesn't define, but they defines prophets and apostles apart from the alleged NAR descriptions. They use scripture not extra-biblical revelation. And Randy interviewed 30 odd leaders. Including one from south America, on spiritual warfare, which none teach, according to Randy. He mentions that the church called apostles after the twelve with Jesus, bishops, but who did much of the same things as apostles.

Paul describes his work as complete, but it is better translated ministry not to suggest Paul was saying he completed a set of tasks once for all and was ready to die.

So Randy also mentions fallacies.

If NAR is a movement, no man invented or taught it, except C Peter Wagner after observing the re-igniting of the offices, teacher... in the twentieth century, so that's Derek Prince, a teacher in the 1940s and Billy Graham an evangelist from the 1950s... Wagner taught it and his students teach it. But God invented and powered it, so it has co-operation and is maintained. Like looking at many locusts, who is the leader? I do not see a claim to that or authority but central teaching lectures would come from Wagner Institute. They determine scripture from false teaching and fallacies.

The discussion in the video reminds me of The verse about Andronicus and Junias, who were apostles before Paul.
Romans 16:7 YLT
salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.

Paul defining a true apostle speaks of suffering and being treated badly for our sake.

Best not to rely on fringe groups to find out about NAR.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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How did Paul discern them?
As I wrote, Paul described his suffering.

He praised others workers like Apollos. Apostle means special messenger, Paul used this term with Andronicus. He used the term bishop. Paul in Ephesians 4:11 uses the term with others like "evangelist" so we use a Koine Greek dictionary.

They were leaders, overseers, Gospel ambassadors, with a special revelation of God, having seen God. All of us have a little or mediocre revelation of God, but Paul, his was great and second to such as Peter, and John, and John writes of apostles in Revelation.

Paul mentions the work of laying on of hands and leading, they are seen to plant churches and impart grace and revelation of God.
 
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In this video Daniel Kolenda of CFAN explains the fallacies regarding what the New Apostolic Reformation is and isn't. He shows up some lies and ideologies and jealousy in conspiracy theories and criticisms... He describes NAR as an observation of really a trend of non denominationalism and regaining of old offices in the churches over the twentieth century until now, by C. Peter. Wagner. And not an organization, or ideology or attempt to create theocracy or counter homosexual rights...

Interesting topic.
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I am a bit familiar with/have been observing..NAR.
- & Peter Wagner..from his 'Fuller' days.
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My concern with NAR is..the emphasis on 'Dominionism/Dominion Theology.
---
Question:
How is NAR..'infuence/impact on..?
- In Australia.
 
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