Daniel 9:

[Just The Facts]

Hello All

I know another really long post but read it you will not be sorry I promise it will make you go wait a minute!!!

I think before you can get into the weeks of years it would help to know what the heck Daniel is actually talking about and what his understanding of all this was. So lets get some perspective.

Dan 9:[2] in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years which, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

That is what Daniel is considering here when will the punishment be over the punishment he tells is

Dan 9:[11] All Israel has transgressed thy law and turned aside, refusing to obey thy voice. And the curse and oath which are written in the law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him.

So what is the curse of the covenant Daniel is talking about in Verse 11

Well Actually Lev 25 and 26 lays it all out doesn't it. The Blessings and the curse of the covenant.

Lev 25:[2] "Say to the people of Israel, When you come into the land which I give you, the land shall keep a sabbath to the LORD. [3] Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard, and gather in its fruits; [4] but in the seventh year there shall be a sabbath of solemn rest for the land, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field or prune your vineyard.

This is the main rule that we are dealing with here.

Lev 26: [1]"You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect no graven image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the LORD your God.[2] You shall keep my sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.[3]"If you walk in my statutes and observe my commandments and do them,[4] then I will give you your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.[5] And your threshing shall last to the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last to the time for sowing; and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land securely.[6] And I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid; and I will remove evil beasts from the land, and the sword shall not go through your land.[7] And you shall chase your enemies, and they shall fall before you by the sword.[8] Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall chase ten thousand; and your enemies shall fall before you by the sword.[9] And I will have regard for you and make you fruitful and multiply you, and will confirm my covenant with you.[10] And you shall eat old store long kept, and you shall clear out the old to make way for the new.[11] And I will make my abode among you, and my soul shall not abhor you.[12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and you shall be my people.

That is the blessing part.

So from Daniel's perspective this is exactly what has just happened. We need to remember Daniel is a Priest and they lived and breathed the books of Moses. So they violated the Covenant as clearly laid out by Jeremiah and so The Curse of the Covenant as clearly laid out in Leviticus is poured out upon them as Daniel so quaintly puts it.

Lev 26 [14]"But if you will not hearken to me, and will not do all these commandments,[15] if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant,[16] I will do this to you: I will appoint over you sudden terror, consumption, and fever that waste the eyes and cause life to pine away. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it;[17] I will set my face against you, and you shall be smitten before your enemies; those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you.

Even Stating this

"Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate, while you are in your enemies' land; then the land shall rest, and enjoy its sabbaths. [35] As long as it lies desolate it shall have rest, the rest which it had not in your sabbaths when you dwelt upon it.

So now we have established what scripture says the 70 years are for. We know why it was 70 years. We know that 70 Sabbath years were missed during the Years from Saul to the Babylonian Captivity.

So first the Israelite's are dragged away then the Jews and the Land will lie desolate for 70 years and have the rest it missed while they were on it.

So the next question is what about when they are in captivity does the curse stop when they are dragged away or are they still under the rules of the covenant even in captivity........................ and the answer is yes they are still under the covenant.

SO what now what if they repent

"But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery which they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me,[41] so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity; [42] then I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and I will remember my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.

Ok So God will return them to their Glory and remember the Covenant.

SO ....did they repent while they were in captivity?..........Well we know they did not.... all worshiped the statue except three men we are told this in Dan 3: Daniel confirms this

Dan 9 [13] As it is written in the law of Moses, all this calamity has come upon us, yet we have not entreated the favor of the LORD our God, turning from our iniquities and giving heed to thy truth.

So what happens in the curse of the covenant if they do not repent?

Lev 26:[23]"And if by this discipline you are not turned to me, but walk contrary to me,[24] then I also will walk contrary to you, and I myself will smite you sevenfold for your sins.

So they will be punished seven times or sevenfold for their refusal to repent.

So Daniel prays, confesses they have violated the covenant and asked to be told when will the seventy years of punishment be over and when will the Israelite iniquity be healed. And make no mistake the Covenant calls it their iniquity.

[39] And those of you that are left shall pine away in your enemies' lands because of their iniquity; and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall pine away like them. [40] "But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers in their treachery which they committed against me, and also in walking contrary to me, [41] so that I walked contrary to them and brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised heart is humbled and they make amends for their iniquity;

So it is very clear this is all about the Hebrews Sins, the Hebrews iniquity that Daniel is asking for answers on.

So Daniel asks the question and the answer comes back...

[24]"Seventy weeks of years are decreed concerning your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

The answer is not what he wanted to hear. They have not repented so Seven Times more for their sins as they are still under the curse of the covenant and if they do not repent God will increase the punishment by seven times.

So 70 years times 7 = 490 years

Now we see that the 490 years is not a random number it is what is laid out in the very curse of the Covenant Daniel speaks of in this chapter.

Notice it is concerning your people to put an end to THEIR SIN TO ATONE FOR THEIR INIQUITY all exactly as laid out in the curse of the covenant Daniel speaks of

Dan 9:[11] All Israel has transgressed thy law and turned aside, refusing to obey thy voice. And the curse and oath which are written in the law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him.

It is not about Jesus dying on the cross and ending sin to atone for mankind's iniquity as some doctrines of men teach. It is about exactly what it says it is about Their iniquity their sins their violation of the covenant and their punishment for it.

The reality is only after the 490 years can the Promise to Abraham Issac and Jacob be fulfilled and not one day sooner because they are still being punished for the whole 490 years.

This prophecy starts with the decree of Cyrus as stated by Daniel himself in verse one and ends 490 years later with the end of the Priest king line in 47 BC. After that then can the promise to Abraham be fulfilled.

This prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus the anti christ or any thing else that has been added to it after 120 AD.

Use common sense ask yourself this question, if this prophecy actually names the very year Jesus was born then why did not Jesus and the Apostles directly refer to it over and over as proof Jesus was the Messiah. They refer to dozens and dozens of other scriptures but just leave out the one prophecy that supposedly names the exact year of Jesus's birth. Please that is just plain nonsense. They would have quoted it over and over as the most compelling proof of Jesus being the Messiah. Why didn't the Pharisees tell Herod the exact year Jesus was to be born why all the mystery. Apparently only the wise men knew the Messiah was born because of some star!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But the very people who read and studied the word of God day after day were what....Just to stupid to be able to add?????? Really ...Seriously.

The earliest Church Fathers knew the truth of this prophecy its time you did too.

 

[Douggg]

So from Daniel's perspective this is exactly what has just happened. We need to remember Daniel is a Priest and they lived and breathed the books of Moses. So they violated the Covenant as clearly laid out by Jeremiah and so The Curse of the Covenant as clearly laid out in Leviticus is poured out upon them as Daniel so quaintly puts it.

Yes, the law of Moses covenant, also called the Mt Sinai covenant.

So what is the covenant to be confirmed for 7 years in Daniel 9:27?

The law of Moses covenant, which Moses required to be confirmed on a 7 year cycle in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It is not a peace treaty.

SO ....did they repent while they were in captivity?..........Well we know they did not.... all worshiped the statue except three men we are told this in Dan 3: Daniel confirms this

That is when they were in Babylonian captivity. But coming out of Babylonian captivity, a different generation basically, the Jews did not take up idol worship again.

Jesus accused the Jews of his day of many things - but idol worship was not one of them.

The answer is not what he wanted to hear. They have not repented so Seven Times more for their sins as they are still under the curse of the covenant and if they do not repent God will increase the punishment by seven times.

So 70 years times 7 = 490 years

The 70 weeks of years is not because of idol worship, but for 70 violations of not letting the land rest for 7 years, leading up to the Babylonian captivity.

Differently, the 70 years of the Babylonian captivity was for the curse of worshiping false gods. The matter which Daniel had prayed over.

The 490 years is for 70 violations of not letting the land rest for 7 years. Until all the blessings they would reap would be fulfilled.
i.e. what Gabriel informed Daniel of - beyond what Daniel had prayed about.
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Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

The matter is the 70 years of captivity, that Daniel had been praying about.

Consider the vision is the vision about the little horn person, which is when Daniel first encountered Gabriel. Gabriel is informing Daniel when the time of the end vision of the little horn would take place, with the little horn being from the people who destory the city and temple.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

To finish the transgression , the transgression is the 70 times that the Jews had violated not letting land rest every 7th year, leading up to the Babylonian captivity.

Use common sense ask yourself this question, if this prophecy actually names the very year Jesus was born then why did not Jesus and the Apostles directly refer to it over and over as proof Jesus was the Messiah.

Daniel 9:25-26 is not about the messiah's birth, but about his arrival in Jerusalem, as the prophecy is not just about Daniel's people but also about Jerusalem.

Jesus Himself, spoke about His Return, as regarding Jerusalem, Matthew 23:37-39.

As far as referring to Daniel 9, Jesus did refer to it. He did not use the term Daniel, but he made reference to the time when the messiah would come. But the Jews of Jerusalem failed to connect his arrival with Daniel 9:25-26.

Here is the scene in Luke 19, Jesus arriving as the messiah in Jerusalem hailed by his disciples (who were not from Jerusalem) as the King (of Israel) who comes in the name of the Lord.

37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The Jews of Jerusalem failed to make the connection of Daniel 9:25-26 to Jesus's arrival as the messiah, King of Israel coming in the name of the Lord.

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It appears that there was some brotherly friction between different regions of the holy land in that day, i.e. between the Jews in Jerusalem, them in Galilee, and them in Samaria.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

Some of what you say is just repeating what I said. The 70 Years of Jeremiah is for 70 missed Sabbath years. Once the curse is enacted they must repent while in captivity.... they did not repent they kept sinning as Daniel clearly states. So the curse of the covenant is still in play seven times more they will be punished. So an additional 490 years of punishment BEFORE and that is the key here Before the Promise will be fulfilled.

The promise is this

Gen 49: [9] Judah is a lion's whelp; from the prey, my son, you have gone up. He stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as a lioness; who dares rouse him up? [10] The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs; and to him shall be the obedience of the peoples.

In Gen 49 each tribes share of the Promise to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob is outlined. Judah gets the ruler the King of Kings. Jesus will be born a Jew. This is the share of the promise for Judah.

The Curse of the Covenant clearly lays out the punishment the Jews must face for THEIR Iniquity for THEIR Sins. Jesus will be born ONLY AFTER the punishment is complete. Only After 48-7 BC can Jesus be born.

If this prophesy laid out the exact year of Jesus birth why Wasn't King Herold waiting in Bethlehem for him to be born.

If this prophecy is about end times why does it not say so Daniel says so very clearly in Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9

To say it is about the time of the end is to add to the words because it does not say so at all.

What is laid out in the original post is the reality of this prophecy to say it is not is to deny the very plain words written here.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Just The Facts,

I don't know of anyone who is claiming the 69 weeks are to Jesus's birth.

What the claim (erroneous) often made is that the beginning of Jesus's ministry, by his baptism by John, is to the point of the 69 weeks (7 weeks + 62 weeks). And that Jesus was cutoff in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[Douggg]

Some of what you say is just repeating what I said. The 70 Years of Jeremiah is for 70 missed Sabbath years. Once the curse is enacted they must repent while in captivity.... they did not repent they kept sinning as Daniel clearly states.

But the Jews did not continue to worship idols, nor marrying foreign wives who brought their idols with them.

Those practices stopped after the return from the Babylonian captivity.

The Jews over there in Israel are not worshiping idols.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Trib

It is not about what happens during or after the 490 Years by then it is too late the curse is enacted before 538BC. It is about what happened during the 70 Years that is what brings on the 490 years of further punishment all in accordance with the curse of the covenant Daniel is speaking of.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Hi Trib

It is not about what happens during or after the 490 Years by then it is too late the curse is enacted before 538BC. It is about what happened during the 70 Years that is what brings on the 490 years of further punishment all in accordance with the curse of the covenant Daniel is speaking of.

You must have misunderstood me for someone else. I have not posted anything else on this thread.

 

[Douggg]

In Jeremiah 25, here is why the Jews went in Babylonian captivity for 70 years, for that generation to pass away, on top of not keep the 70 sabbaticals for the land.

It was for worshiping other gods, in the form of idols v6. There were other nations, peoples, in the land of Israel brought there by intermarrying. And the Jews not repenting of it, stopping the practice of intermarrying.

4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever:

6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.

7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words,

9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.

10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle.

11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.

So God not only exiled the Jews to Babylon, but the nations round about Israel. Everyone out of the land, except for a few caretaker Jews.

And when Nehemiah and Ezra returned - they were shocked that the caretaker Jews had not stopped their practice of taking foreign wives - which had caused all the idols to be brought into the land of Israel.

So they shamed them into agreeing to send away their foreign wives and the children they had by them.

 

[Just The Facts]

Sorry Trib I meant Doug

Hi Doug

So you are saying that they were sent away for worshipping Idols not the Sabbath years. Ok say that is true...it still changes nothing. They violated the Covenant did not repent of their sins regardless of what their sins were and thus had to endure 70 X7 or 490 Years of more punishment. Punishment for Their Sins Their Iniquity The birthright promise can not be given until after the 490 Years have passed. That means Jesus is not part of the 490 years. He can only come after the 490 Years.

there are many other issues with the understanding of this being about Jesus but the reality is the Question asked and the answer given show that it can not be about Jesus at all.

 

[Douggg]

So you are saying that they were sent away for worshipping Idols not the Sabbath years. Ok say that is true...it still changes nothing. They violated the Covenant did not repent of their sins regardless of what their sins were and thus had to endure 70 X7 or 490 Years of more punishment. Punishment for Their Sins Their Iniquity The birthright promise can not be given until after the 490 Years have passed. That means Jesus is not part of the 490 years. He can only come after the 490 Years.

i don't know where you are getting that, after coming out of the Babylonian captivity, they had not repented and not sought to follow the covenant they had made with God.

To the contrary, Jesus criticized the Pharisees for they had gone overboard in seeking to follow the covenant, by trying to keep the letter of the law, and not the spirit of the law.

I think instead of you saying 490 more years of "punishment" determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem - 490 years of "difficulty" would be more appropriate.

24 Seventy weeks [of difficulty] are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

For 69 of those weeks, they were under occupation by foreign powers, i.e. the Greeks, then the Romans during Jesus's time. And will be under occupation, during the 70th week, following Gog/Magog.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous [difficult] times.

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And what birthright promise are you speaking about?

It was God Himself who anointed Cyrus to facilitate the Jews' return to rebuild the city and release them from captivity. Isaiah 45:13 speaking about Cyrus.

13 I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
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When you say that Jesus can't be a part of the 490 years - then who is the messiah in Daniel 9:26 who, after 69 weeks, is cutoff but not for himself?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Doug

What they did After Babylon captivity is not the question here. What they did during it is.

You keep returning to what they did during the 490 years of punishment. What they did then means nothing to the adding on of the 490 years of punishment. They did not repent during the 70 years so they got 490 years more punishment it really is that simple.

What you are saying is a kin to someone committing aggravated assault then once the judge says you are guilt... 7 in prison....then while in prison he gets into a fight and kills someone. So he get his sentence increased to 25 years. Then the murderer changes his ways and says Oh I am sorry I won't do it again. Should the judge just take away his sentence. Of course not he finishes his sentence and when it is over he can prove he has changed.

70 Years was the sentence but they continued to sin so God Added 490 years to the sentence just because during the 490 years they stopped sinning doesn't mean the 490 year sentence is waved it is not.

 

[Douggg]

Hi Doug

What they did After Babylon captivity is not the question here. What they did during it is.

You keep returning to what they did during the 490 years of punishment. What they did then means nothing to the adding on of the 490 years of punishment. They did not repent during the 70 years so they got 490 years more punishment it really is that simple.

What you are saying is a kin to someone committing aggravated assault then once the judge says you are guilt... 7 in prison....then while in prison he gets into a fight and kills someone. So he get his sentence increased to 25 years. Then the murderer changes his ways and says Oh I am sorry I won't do it again. Should the judge just take away his sentence. Of course not he finishes his sentence and when it is over he can prove he has changed.

70 Years was the sentence but they continued to sin so God Added 490 years to the sentence just because during the 490 years they stopped sinning doesn't mean the 490 year sentence is waved it is not.

What the Jews themselves say about the 490 years is that it was a probation period that if they did not clean up their act, they would go in dispersion into the nations, again.

They say the past 2000 years of dispersion into the nations, following 70AD - is because of unwarranted hatred of Jew against Jew.

In Ezekiel 39, Jesus Himself speaking in verse 21-29, says the reason was that they transgressed against him.
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The 490 years determined on Daniel's people and Jerusalem is not punishment (because they did repent and turned away from the idol worship), but difficulty for the Jews. Which is easy to witness of their history, and with modern Israel of today.

There are 7 years of difficulty remaining.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hello All

I know another really long post but read it you will not be sorry I promise it will make you go wait a minute!!!

I think before you can get into the weeks of years it would help to know what the heck Daniel is actually talking about and what his understanding of all this was.

The earliest Church Fathers knew the truth of this prophecy its time you did too.

Dear Just the facts,
Though parts of what you presented are accurate, you are missing the core of Daniel's prophecy. His prophecy's true meaning is presented to us in Christ's spiritual language . And the prophecy is certainly about Christ and His work to "bring in everlasting righteousness".

Dan 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel’s seventy weeks prophecy is God’s timeline to accomplish the “restitution of all things”:

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Seventy weeks of years (490 years) are given to “bring an end to sin” and “bring in everlasting righteousness” for mankind. Jesus Christ was sent by the Father to accomplish this great work:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

THE 70TH WEEK

At the start of the 70th week (483 years), Christ, now being 30 years of age, “confirmed the covenant” He made with Abraham.

Gen 15:5-6 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

This confirmation took place when Christ was baptized by John the Baptist.

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli…

Matt 3:13-15 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

At that time, the final 7 year “week” commenced which would bring an end to sin, make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness. To complete this mission, Christ willingly went to the cross at the 3 ½ year mark (He was “cutoff”). His sacrifice purchased mankind’s sin debt and provided the pathway of salvation for mankind. As a result of Christ’s death and resurrection, the Old covenant of Law ended and the New Covenant of Grace through Faith began. This change is shown to us by verse 27:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ’s death on the cross caused the “sacrifice and the oblation to cease”. No longer could mankind approach God through the Old Covenant of Law. Now the only approach to God is through Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ who dwells in His new temple made without hands. That new temple is mankind.

Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

However, mankind, who being carnally minded, prefers the Old Covenant of Law (man's works) over the New Covenant of Grace through Faith.

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Our carnal nature has a built in desire to show God that our “works” can make us acceptable to Him. So when a Called Out believer attempts to combine their own “works” with Grace through Faith ("can't serve two masters", Mat 6:24), they “fall away”. This “falling away” is also combined with the deceptions of Satan who masquerades as Christ. When Satan’s deceptions run their full course within a Called Out believer, a worsened carnal state is developed.

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The “seven other spirits” is a spiritual term that represents the complete deception of Satan. It is the spirit of antichrist.

This worsened carnal state is called the “Man of Sin” by Paul:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Once this worsened carnal state occurs within a Called Out believer, it causes the “overspreading of abominations” which makes the Lord’s temple (themselves) desolate. This is the “sin that leads to death”.

1John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This abomination of desolation is what Christ referred to in this verse below:

Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

THE REMAINING 3 ½ YEARS

The first 69 ½ weeks of Daniel’s prophecy were fulfilled during the times of the Old Covenant. Since the Old Covenant is physical and outward, those 69 ½ weeks were fulfilled physically and outwardly. But since the New Covenant is a spiritual covenant (it cleanses the inside of mankind), the remaining 3 ½ years will be fulfilled spiritually and inwardly within each person who has ever lived (all who died in Adam, 1Cor 15:22). Furthermore, the fulfillment of the 3 ½ years will be broken down into two groups: The first group is made up of persons who are saved in this present age (the Elect). The second group is made up of the rest of mankind who are saved in the next and final age (Lake of Fire age).

This 3 ½ years is also presented in scripture as Time, Times and half a time, 1260 days, 42 months and finally 3 ½ days.

At the end of the final age, when the last person is saved, the 3 ½ years remaining of Daniel’s prophecy will be fulfilled and Christ will have put an end to sin and will have brought in everlasting righteousness.

The remaining 3 ½ years period starts within a believer when they are first Called Out from the world. This is the time of the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.

Christ even said:

Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the down-payment of the Holy Spirit. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. It leaves the new believer carnally mind and spiritually blind. It is at this time that Satan comes to us and causes us to accept His lies. We quickly fall away and spiritually worsen into a “Man of Sin”. This is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and Christ.

During this time, the fallen away believer desperately needs the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Latter Rain is also known as the Baptism of the Spirit which is the rain that produces our salvation. However, this rain will not fall upon a Called and Chosen believer until the 3 ½ years period (spiritually speaking) is complete.

Later in James, he had this to say about this matter:

James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

Note: The Early Rain falls upon the “sea” where unbelievers dwell. The Latter Rain falls upon the “earth” where the Called Out believers dwell.

Once the Latter Rain falls upon a Called and Chosen believer, they are “born again” and the last 3 ½ years of Daniel’s prophecy is testified to be complete.

The completion of this "3 ½ years" started with the Day of Pentecost when those in the upper room received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. And it has been happening over and over again down through this age to all of Christ’s chosen Elect. But they are ONLY the First Fruits of Christ’s harvest of mankind. After this age ends, all who remain lost will go through the same process in the final age. When the last person is saved, then the "3 ½ years" will be completed and these statements will be testified to be true:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Faith

First let me say I really appreciate the tone of your posts. If everyone in here displayed that kind of tone it would be so much nicer. This is the study of Eschatology not salvation. 90 % of the churches listed below all see the only way to salvation is through our Lord Jesus Christ. In my mind they are all valued witnesses for Jesus.

Next please allow me to say I am not new to the study of this. I say this not to boast but to help you understand this fact. I am well aware of every major belief and have studied every major Christians Sects understanding of prophecy. I was raised Catholic, Became a Born again in my early 20s. Found that to many verses did just not line up so I started looking into prophecy more. I have spent months sometimes years studying with, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Baptists, Pentecostals. Quakers, Mennonites, JW, Seventh Day, Mormon, WWCG, Messianic, Jews two different varieties, Red Letter Christians even went and studied the OT with Practicing Jewish friends. Not because I felt I would eventually know the truth I will never know the whole truth of prophecy until of of the later rain reveals the truth. The point is over the last 40 years I have studied what all these Churches teach so I am well aware of what you have stated above and once believed it myself. However it is like believing in Santa Clause, I once believed in Santa Clause then I found out it was not true so I do not believe in Santa Clause anymore. Will I ever believe in Santa Clause again....of course not why would I believe what I know not to be true.

You have summarized the common view of this prophecy a view that was first created or made well known by the creator of the vulgate Jerome. However this was not the explanation taught before the mid 3rd century as to what Daniel 9 was about, not at all. When you read Justin and Irenaeus and other fathers pre Jerome you will notice that when they talk about Daniel and the future coming of the AC even in direct relation to 2Thes 2:1-6 they do not mention Daniel 9 once they mention Daniel 2,7,8,11,12 But not Daniel 9: When presenting proof of Jesus as Messiah they point to Isaiah Joel Psalms but never Daniel 9 which according to Jerome points to the exact year of his birth. Why is that ..the answer is obvious, because that is not what this part of Daniel is about.

You say this is about the Worlds sins and to atone for iniquity for the world but that is not what Scripture says at all. That is a doctrine of men made up in the mid 3rd century. Scripture says it is about the Jews sins the Jews iniquity and about their punishment.

The reality is all the way to post 100AD EVERYONE was Premill in Doctrine. Amill doctrine came about because people couldn't be patient. Already in Peter and Paul's day people were impatient. John The last of the Apostles to die did so sometime in the early second century at Ephesus, where he was head of the Church. Justin Martyr was converted by an elder at Ephesus within one generation of John's death by a man who new and was taught by John. It is as close to the horse's mouth as we can get.

The latter rain did not start at Pentecost that was the early rain as stated by James. he says in Chapter four they have received the spirt but then in chapter five he says be patient for God still will have the later rain. Meaning they are the early rain.

This duality is confirmed in RV 6 and the fifth seal and each under the alter is told to wait for those who will be killed as they Had been killed. Showing that there will be a second rain and a second Persecution or the Great Persecution. Which will start just as the first one started with the sealing of the chosen with the Holy Spirit this is the 144,000 of Rv 7: This is the latter rain.

What I have said about Daniel 9: is the truth of this prophecy what you are saying is the doctrine of men, Jerome being one of them, many doctrines created hundreds of years after the fact and not supported by those who were taught at John's church by elders that new John personally, or by any other early (pre 150Ad) Church Fathers.

 

[DavidPT]

Use common sense ask yourself this question, if this prophecy actually names the very year Jesus was born then why did not Jesus and the Apostles directly refer to it over and over as proof Jesus was the Messiah. They refer to dozens and dozens of other scriptures but just leave out the one prophecy that supposedly names the exact year of Jesus's birth. Please that is just plain nonsense. They would have quoted it over and over as the most compelling proof of Jesus being the Messiah. Why didn't the Pharisees tell Herod the exact year Jesus was to be born why all the mystery. Apparently only the wise men knew the Messiah was born because of some star!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But the very people who read and studied the word of God day after day were what....Just to stupid to be able to add?????? Really ...Seriously.

The earliest Church Fathers knew the truth of this prophecy its time you did too.

Even what you are proposing in the OP though it is obviously not correct, those 490 years are pertaining to a time when they are rebuilding Jerusalem and moving back in. Yet, the fact you are using Levicticus 26 to make the majority of your point, have you not considered that the following makes zero sense during a time when Jerusalem is being rebuilt?


Leviticus 26:27 And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
28 Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
30 And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
31 And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
32 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.
36 And upon them that are left alive of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth.
37 And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies.
38 And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.
39 And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies' lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine away with them.


What I have underlined do those things sound like things that would be taking place during a rebuilding and moving back in phase? My advice if you still insist you are correct, leave Leviticus 26 out of the equation altogether. And the fact your proposed 490 years ended in 47 BC of all places, there is no way any of the curses in Leviticus 26:27-39 above applied to that period of time. 70 AD would be the earliest some of the curses recorded in Leviticus 26:27-39 might apply to. But even then they wouldn't, but at least what happened in 70 AD matches with some of the curses recorded in Leviticus 26:27-39, to some degree, while what you are proposing doesn't.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello Dave

Even what you are proposing in the OP though it is obviously not correct, those 490 years are pertaining to a time when they are rebuilding Jerusalem and moving back in. Yet, the fact you are using Levicticus 26 to make the majority of your point, have you not considered that the following makes zero sense during a time when Jerusalem is being rebuilt?

You are not listening to what Daniel is saying

What I have underlined do those things sound like things that would be taking place during a rebuilding and moving back in phase?

Yes that is exactly what happened to them repeatedly over and over again until the Romans eventually destroyed it all and took them away as slaves. Do I really need to post every invasion of Judea every army that marched into Jerusalem from 538 BC to 48 BC. They never ruled themselves that whole time. They always had a Governor over them. For the first hundred years they lived in tents and couldn't even start to build because they were attacked so much. By the time Ezra showed up of the original 10,000 that returned only 20% were still there the rest had fled. And that 10,000 was less than 15% of those living Judea at the time of the invasion. By the time of the Return there were more Jews living in Egypt and other surrounding countries then captive in Babylon or living in Judea. They had all fled and kept running even though no one was chasing them. They were persecuted everywhere they went. Those that did return were attacked many times. It happened repeatedly no less than a dozen times in the 490 years so once every 50 years. The worst was in 166 BC when Their religion was banned and the Temple turned into a Gymnasium. They were the middle ground the battle field between two of the most powerful Kingdoms on earth at the time. the Seleucids and the Ptolemy Kingdoms. They never knew peace. From 140BC on they fell under Roman rule. At first through Romes take over of the Seleucid Kingdom and then Directly after Pompeii invaded Killed all the priest and put a pigs head on the Alter.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hi Faith

First let me say I really appreciate the tone of your posts. If everyone in here displayed that kind of tone it would be so much nicer. This is the study of Eschatology not salvation. 90 % of the churches listed below all see the only way to salvation is through our Lord Jesus Christ. In my mind they are all valued witnesses for Jesus.

Dear Just the Facts,
You said:
This is the study of Eschatology not salvation. 90 % of the churches listed below all see the only way to salvation is through our Lord Jesus Christ. In my mind they are all valued witnesses for Jesus.

The true understanding of Eschatology teaches the pathway to salvation that Christ causes all mankind to travel. These prophecies are fulfilled by Christ "within" mankind. They are not fulfilled out in the world. The Old Covenant of Law (man's works) is outward and physical. The New Covenant (Christ's works) is inward and spiritual. Christ is cleaning the inside of our cup (Mat 23:26). We must rightly divide the Word of God by these two covenants.

You said:
The point is over the last 40 years I have studied what all these Churches teach so I am well aware of what you have stated above and once believed it myself. However it is like believing in Santa Clause, I once believed in Santa Clause then I found out it was not true so I do not believe in Santa Clause anymore. Will I ever believe in Santa Clause again....of course not why would I believe what I know not to be true.

There are NO CHURCHES that teach what I presented in my earlier post about Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. None of the "churches" have any truth in them. Near the end of the Apostles ministries, the spirit of anti-Christ came and deceived the spiritually blind churches. Wolves (ministers of Satan) entered the sheep fold and did not spare any of the flock.

Acts 20: 29 -31 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Do you believe this happened? Do you believe the wolves ever left?

I'm not sure who or what you are comparing to Santa Claus. I can only guess you are referring to
Christ being the Savior of the world. If this is the case, you are wrong. Mankind's salvation is 100% the work of Christ and He will not fail in the mission the Father gave Him.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Christ is only saving the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind in this age and He will save the rest of mankind in the final age. Mankind has no say in the matter.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

To believe that mankind must contribute something from their own "free will" in order to be saved is a false teaching. We are saved because of Grace. Christ, at a time of His choosing, will come to each person who has ever lived and give them the Holy Spirit. Christ does not ask our permission to do this work within us. Once He gives us the Holy Spirit, we all call Jesus "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Once an unbeliever has the Holy Spirit, they can no longer reject Christ. The only outcome is the same outcome that Saul/Paul had on the Damascus Road. This is the only way Christ does His work within mankind. He does it because it "seemed good to the potter to make it".

You said:
You have summarized the common view of this prophecy a view that was first created or made well known by the creator of the vulgate Jerome. However this was not the explanation taught before the mid 3rd century as to what Daniel 9 was about, not at all. When you read Justin and Irenaeus and other fathers pre Jerome you will notice that when they talk about Daniel and the future coming of the AC even in direct relation to 2Thes 2:1-6 they do not mention Daniel 9 once they mention Daniel 2,7,8,11,12 But not Daniel 9: When presenting proof of Jesus as Messiah they point to Isaiah Joel Psalms but never Daniel 9 which according to Jerome points to the exact year of his birth. Why is that ..the answer is obvious, because that is not what this part of Daniel is about.

As I said earlier, no churches teach the true understanding of scripture. And Jerome certainly did not understand the prophecies of Daniel as I presented.

All the churches were corrupted near the end of the Apostles ministries and have remain so until this day. Satan is masquerading as Christ and is in full control of the churches. For this reason, there are no mainstream church doctrines that are true.

The Word of God must be spiritually understood in order to learn the truth. The believer must be given "eyes that can see" and this gift is only given at the time the believer receives the Latter Rain. Only then will the truth of scripture open up to the believer. Until that time, the believer will remain deceived by Satan.

The Doctrine of Free Will and the Doctrine of Hell are to two most insidious doctrines found in the mainstream. They teach that mankind must contribute to their own salvation and if a person doesn't, they will be burned in literal fire for all eternity. This is a "works" based belief system that comes from Satan through his ministers who control the churches. The churches are places where the "blind lead the blind".

You said:
You say this is about the Worlds sins and to atone for iniquity for the world but that is not what Scripture says at all. That is a doctrine of men made up in the mid 3rd century. Scripture says it is about the Jews sins the Jews iniquity and about their punishment.

Salvation comes through the Jews to the entire world. Paul said that we all become Jews when we are "in Christ". The physical lineage is unimportant with God. In the end, we will all become spiritual descendants of Abraham after Christ saves us by faith.

Rom 9:7 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are NOT all
Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The seed of Abraham is spiritual and is based on "faith" (Isaac, the children of the promise). The "children of the flesh" (physical descendants of Abraham) are "not the children of God". We become children of God by faith in Christ and only then does God consider us descendants of Abraham.

Because we all become spiritual Abraham's descendants, the promise of salvation presented in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy applies to all mankind.

You said:
The reality is all the way to post 100AD EVERYONE was Premill in Doctrine. Amill doctrine came about because people couldn't be patient. Already in Peter and Paul's day people were impatient. John The last of the Apostles to die did so sometime in the early second century at Ephesus, where he was head of the Church. Justin Martyr was converted by an elder at Ephesus within one generation of John's death by a man who new and was taught by John. It is as close to the horse's mouth as we can get.

Unless a believer has received the Latter Rain and has their spiritual blindness healed, they will not understand and accept the truth of God, even if one of the Apostles taught them directly. Paul directly taught many in the churches he started but they remained carnally minded and could only see Jesus in the flesh.

1Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Below is the way Christ, Paul and the other scripture writers taught:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

To understand and accept the truth of scripture, a believer MUST have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). Only then will their spiritual blindness be healed by Christ. Until that time, Christ will remain "veiled".

Here is where Christ taught this truth:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in "type" by healing a blind man. This "type" is the same "type" which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verses 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This is the same time when an unbeliever is "called out from the world" and becomes a Christian. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

CONTINUED ON NEXT POST...

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Hi Faith

First let me say I really appreciate the tone of your posts. If everyone in here displayed that kind of tone it would be so much nicer. This is the study of Eschatology not salvation. 90 % of the churches listed below all see the only way to salvation is through our Lord Jesus Christ. In my mind they are all valued witnesses for Jesus.

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
The latter rain did not start at Pentecost that was the early rain as stated by James. he says in Chapter four they have received the spirt but then in chapter five he says be patient for God still will have the later rain. Meaning they are the early rain.

The Early Rain is when a person is "called out from the world". All the Jews were called out when they left Egypt:

1Cor 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

The Latter Rain is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost.

The same pattern holds true for all of Christ's First-Fruits who are being saved in this age.

Scripture says that Paul’s conversion is the “pattern” or “type” by which all others will be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.

This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).

When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ in our "marred" spiritual condition as is commonly taught. If we did, it would be a "work". If Christ decides to come to a person in the present age, it is a spiritual event which happens "within" us (Luke 17:21). Christ in now "spirit" and cannot be seen with human eyes.

When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately fall to the earth just as Paul did. The “earth” represents mankind’s carnality. The new believer has risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell upon the earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains. Paul's blindness represents his spiritual blindness.

Since the new believer is still carnally minded and spiritually blind upon receiving the Early Rain, they cannot recognize the “voice” which calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains hidden (veiled) from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.

From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.

After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for 3 days. Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence.

This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth).

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the flesh.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead and Paul is “born again”. “Saul” is now given the new name of “Paul”, a child of God.

You said:
This duality is confirmed in RV 6 and the fifth seal and each under the alter is told to wait for those who will be killed as they Had been killed. Showing that there will be a second rain and a second Persecution or the Great Persecution. Which will start just as the first one started with the sealing of the chosen with the Holy Spirit this is the 144,000 of Rv 7: This is the latter rain.

The 144,000 is a symbol for all of Christ's First-Fruits are being saved in this age. It is not a literal number. It is a physical symbol which represents a spiritual truth. All the teachings of scripture are taught in Christ's spiritual language which uses these symbols. Nearly all the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the 1st century A.D.

The book clearly says the seals are already open and the time is at hand AND that was nearly 2000 years ago!

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

If the time for the book of Revelation is still future, how can anyone, especially those who lived and died over the past 2000 years, ever hope to KEEP THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY?

Was Christ mistaken when He said "I come quickly"? Two thousand years is not quickly.

The truth is the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century A.D. and have continued to be fulfilled over and over again since that time. For Christ's Elect of this age, Christ has already come or is presently coming or will come in the future.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Christ's second coming to His Elect will continue until the last chosen person is saved and this age comes to an end.

The book of Revelation is not teaching about outward coming world events. The book is teaching on the pathway to salvation. Those events are spiritual, meaning that they happen "within" a single person. Until a reader can "see" spiritually, the book of Revelation will remain a mystery. We must "keep the sayings" of the book or salvation will pass us by.

Joe

 

[Just The Facts]

Hello Faith

I am sorry but there are just so many things I disagree with in those two posts. Most stems from your continually taking things that should be literal and spiritualizing then away. This is what came about in the early second century by those who were impatient. They could not wait anymore for prophecy to be fulfilled so the Spiritualization of prophecy started.

I find it ironic that you state that the church left the truth in the second century and then follow the same path of the exit from the truth.

John did not teach Revelation this way..... we know he did not because we have witnesses to his teachings. Those who knew him personally and this at his church directly taught by John.

Isaiah tells us in very very plain words who the harlot of Revelation is. We do not to come up with stuff like this.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ

That is not what he tells us. Not Even Close. Read Isaiah 23:

The book of Revelation is not teaching about outward coming world events. The book is teaching on the pathway to salvation. Those events are spiritual, meaning that they happen "within" a single person.

No that is not what John says at all. Those are the words of men with itching ears who lost the patience to wait for the day of the Lord so they say no the day of the Lord comes to each man at his death.

Here is what John Says,

[1] The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, [2] who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. [3] Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.

It is a prophecy of events that MUST TAKE PLACE.

Like I said before..... it is like Santa Clause I once believed in it but I learned the truth and I will never believe the lie again.

Finally no one is saved by some learned Theology of prophecy it is most often the path to destruction. There is only one way to salvation and you need not know a single word of the prophets to have it. Faith unto Works which is Fruit of the spirit.

[13] For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment. [14] What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? [15] If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, [16] and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? [17] So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. [18] But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith [19] You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe -- and shudder.
[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? [22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, [23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. [24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

He is saying that if you truly have faith then you have works the two are inseparable.

Jesus confirms the Spirit brings forth fruit which is the works of the Spirit.

[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, [33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. [34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
[36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? [39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' [40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' [41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' [45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' [46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

You seem very nice and a kind soul but I fear you have fallen pray to the heaped up piles of false teachers. Peace to you my friend in Christ

 

[christian1724]

Hi Just The Facts,

I don't know of anyone who is claiming the 69 weeks are to Jesus's birth.

I also am not aware of anyone who believes that this was referring to Jesus' birth.

What the claim (erroneous) often made is that the beginning of Jesus's ministry, by his baptism by John, is to the point of the 69 weeks (7 weeks + 62 weeks). And that Jesus was cutoff in the middle of the 70th week.

I am among those who currently understand that the 70th week begins about the time of Jesus' baptism. Why do you think that it is erroneous?

Thanks