Daniel 9: 62 weeks or 69 weeks?

[Christian Gedge]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but Jesus was crucified about 1 week (literal week) after the 69 'sevens', so he fits perfectly.

I guess you are following the 360-day year theory of Sir Robert Anderson? I would recommend that you count normal years from Artaxerxes 7th year. When you do that, the 69th week ends on the commencement of Jesus’ ministry. His death comes 3 years after that. (In the midst of the 70th week)

 

[3 Resurrections]

Below is one explanation I found for why the "seven weeks" would be separated from, and precede, the 62, but it seems like a reach to find significance in the seven:

Like you, I have often mused before on the significance of why this first period of 7 weeks (49 years) is separated from the other 62 weeks which directly follow it (another 434 years). The answer I think is typically one from Jewish law. I'd appreciate it if you could offer some comments either pro or con to the following proposal.

I suggest that this 49 years from when the decree was first given was that point in time at which the high priest died in post-exilic Jerusalem. There was real significance for marking this date, and it mirrors the results of Christ's death (which was included in the 70th week). In other words, Daniel's 70-week prophecy begins with the death of a high priest at the end of the 7 weeks period, and then ends with the death (and resurrection) of the Great High Priest - Jesus the Messiah - in the period of the last 70th week.

Back in the OT, when someone accidentally caused the death of a person, he would flee to one of the "cities of refuge" where he would be required to live until the death of the high priest (Numbers 35:9-28). Once the high priest died, the "avenger of blood" could no longer have a claim of vengeance on the one who had killed their relative accidentally, and the manslayer could return to the land of his possession again without risk of being killed by the avenger. This was a precursor to the spiritual benefits we receive from Christ's death. When that happened, we could spiritually "return to the land of our possession" in fellowship with God, because our offenses were wiped clean by the death of our Great High Priest.

If I'm reading the regulations correctly, the high priest was chosen to serve, (like the Levites who waited upon the service of the tabernacle of the congregation), from the age of 25 (Numbers 8:24-25). If we add the 49 years of Daniel's first 7-week period to a high priest's term of service beginning at age 25, that means the high priest would have died at 74 - a not unreasonable age for this.

Now, we are told that Joshua the son of Josedech was anointed to serve in the post-exilic temple in Jerusalem. If he was 25 when he began to serve in the high priest's office, then I propose the 49 years later might very well have marked the death of Joshua the high priest at the age of 74.

Comments?

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

I guess you are following the 360-day year theory of Sir Robert Anderson? I would recommend that you count normal years from Artaxerxes 7th year. When you do that, the 69th week ends on the commencement of Jesus’ ministry. His death comes 3 years after that. (In the midst of the 70th week)

The Bible only knows 360-day years, in Genesis, Daniel and Revelation. It would make no sense to count modern years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I still think v26 is a gap and the 70th week unfulfilled, but that's another topic

Do you understand now that it indicates that the Messiah would be cut off after the first 69 weeks (7 + 62)? If so, then why would that not mean He was cut off during the 70th week?

 

[Timtofly]

A question arose in another OP about when Messiah was cut off in the Daniel 9 prophecy - was it after 62 weeks or after 69 weeks?

Here are the passages:

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


I believe a strict reading of v26 shows Messiah was cut off after 62 weeks, not 69. That v25 is worded as "seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks" does not mean that seven weeks came first, after which came 62 weeks, after which Messiah was cut off. Numbers are sometimes written this way in scripture (as in the genealogies of Genesis 11)

If I'm correct, then there is a week of weeks (7x7 = 49 years) that follows Messiah being cut off, but which isn't the same as the 70th week. I'm trying to resolve this, so don't have answers, just questions, and would love any thoughts on this.

Read the book of Ezra. That will explain the 49 years and why Artexerxes had to get the project going again. There was a gap after the first 49 years. Then the work started again.

 

[DavidPT]

Read the book of Ezra. That will explain the 49 years and why Artexerxes had to get the project going again. There was a gap after the first 49 years. Then the work started again.

What year began the 49 years and what year began the 434 years?

 

[jeffweedaman]

Do you understand now that it indicates that the Messiah would be cut off after the first 69 weeks (7 + 62)? If so, then why would that not mean He was cut off during the 70th week?

Very good.
The 70th week is all about the anointed one bringing a perfect atonement through his own blood after 7 and 62 weeks.
Done and dusted, blood shed , full authority over death and the gift of eternal life to whosoever believes , everlasting righteous for those who believe.

 

[DavidPT]

I still think v26 is a gap and the 70th week unfulfilled, but that's another topic

There is clearly a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks though some flat out deny that. But it might not be between the 69th and 70th week, though. It could be in the middle of the 70th week instead. For years I have been thinking the gap is between the 69th and 70th week. Now I tend to think it could be in the middle of the 70th week instead.

 

[Christian Gedge]

What year began the 49 years and what year began the 434 years?

The 49 years began in 457 BC, and the 434 years began in 408 BC, and the final 7 years began in 27 AD. There were no gaps between anything.

 

[jeffweedaman]

For years I have been thinking the gap is between the 69th and 70th week. Now I tend to think it could be in the middle of the 70th week instead.

70 weeks was decreed to Daniels people, being Israel. The testimony of Jesus NC bore fruit until the middle of the final week. The last half confirms the New Cov through the same ministry of reconciliation being given to his disciples.
The Gospel then went immediately to the Gentiles with Jesus raising up Paul to bring those sheep of other folds until the very end comes.

 

[DavidPT]

The 49 years began in 457 BC, and the 434 years began in 408 BC, and the final 7 years began in 27 AD. There were no gaps between anything.

What noteworthy thing or things happened in 408 BC, or are you just deducing that date since it would be meaning 49 years after that of 457 BC? If He is cutoff after 62 weeks that should mean something noteworthy occurred in 408 BC, otherwise why not instead say He is cutoff after 69 weeks if nothing noteworthy happens at the beginning of the 62 weeks? You have something noteworthy happening at the beginning of the 7 weeks and at the beginning of the 70th week, right? That should mean something noteworthy happens at the beginning of the 62 weeks as well.

 

[DavidPT]

70 weeks was decreed to Daniels people, being Israel. The testimony of Jesus NC bore fruit until the middle of the final week. The last half confirms the New Cov through the same ministry of reconciliation being given to his disciples.
The Gospel then went immediately to the Gentiles with Jesus raising up Paul to bring those sheep of other folds until the very end comes.

Verse 27 is obviously the 70th week, meaning the entire verse, so show in that verse where it ever mentions or even hints at anything that I underlined in your post above. That's called adding to the text things not present in the text.

 

[Christian Gedge]

What noteworthy thing or things happened in 408 BC,

Most people will say that it is speaking of 49 years to rebuild the city. I don’t think the rebuild took that long. I believe 408 BC marks the time when the prophets fell silent and the long silent years era began.

Have you ever noticed how Luke‘s Gospel starts at the same place as where the book of Malachi ends? (Malachi 4:5-6, Luke 1:17) What this shows is that the 62 weeks represents the ‘silent years.’

 

[Timtofly]

What year began the 49 years and what year began the 434 years?

The first decree was given the first year of Cyrus per Daniel and Ezra. After 49 years the work stopped. That is when Artexerxes, himself said the work could stop. Later when they showed Artexerxis the decree of Cyrus, he honored that decree and the work started again.

Most start the work on the date Artaxexis started the work again, but the first 49 years started with Cyrus.

The countdown from Artexerxis is 434 years, the 62 weeks, not 483 years, the full 69 weeks.

Artexerxis actually decreed the work to stop. He did not issue a new decree himself. He re-instated Cyrus' original decree. Yet many claim Artexerxis was solely responsible for the original decree. Read Ezra.

The year depends on how you place Cyrus as ruler. Cyrus was ruler over 4 or 5 kingdoms. I think the original decree was the year Daniel died.

"Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled."

Cyrus was also made king of Babylon. So the verse is saying Cyrus was already King of Persia, but the first year as king of Babylon. Not the first year as king of Persia.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There is clearly a gap somewhere in the 70 weeks though some flat out deny that. But it might not be between the 69th and 70th week, though. It could be in the middle of the 70th week instead. For years I have been thinking the gap is between the 69th and 70th week. Now I tend to think it could be in the middle of the 70th week instead.

Considering how unclear you are about when the supposed gap occurs, do you actually expect people to take your claim that there is "clearly a gap" seriously? I hope not.

Verse 27 is obviously the 70th week, meaning the entire verse, so show in that verse where it ever mentions or even hints at anything that I underlined in your post above. That's called adding to the text things not present in the text.

Is that not what you're doing when you claim there is a gap somewhere either between the 69th and 70th week or within the 70th week? Where is that in the text? Nowhere.

We all interpret the text according to our overall beliefs and interpret some things from it that aren't explicitly stated, including you.

Can you tell me when you believe each of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 were or will be fulfilled? Or just tell me which ones you think haven't been fulfilled and when and how you think they will be fulfilled? They were all to be fulfilled within the 70 weeks.

 

[DavidPT]

The countdown from Artexerxis is 434 years, the 62 weeks, not 483 years, the full 69 weeks.

Knowing specific ancient history dates involving certain events is not something I have kept up with all that much since it's not a main interest of mine, yet I do realize it is relevant when coming to topics such as this. It's just that some of these dates aren't embedded in my memory like they might be in others.

I'm certain I could probably consult Google in order to determine what the date of that would have been, but since I'm discussing this with you, and that you are proposing that there is a gap between the 49 years and the 434 years, which I personally see as a possibility since I have been thinking along the same lines myself because I too have noticed what you brought up about Ezra, what was the date of that in your view, what I quoted from your post above, and where does it end up 434 years later? It has to end up at a period of time before He is cutoff if it is after the 62 weeks that He is cutoff.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Knowing specific ancient history dates involving certain events is not something I have kept up with all that much since it's not a main interest of mine, yet I do realize it is relevant when coming to topics such as this. It's just that some of these dates aren't embedded in my memory like they might be in others.

I'm certain I could probably consult Google in order to determine what the date of that would have been, but since I'm discussing this with you, and that you are proposing that there is a gap between the 49 years and the 434 years, which I personally see as a possibility since I have been thinking along the same lines myself because I too have noticed what you brought up about Ezra, what was the date of that in your view, what I quoted from your post above, and where does it end up 434 years later? It has to end up at a period of time before He is cutoff if it is after the 62 weeks that He is cutoff.

So, you are admitting you are winging it?

 

[DavidPT]

So, you are admitting you are winging it?

How is it winging it if I'm not the type of person that can keep certain historic dates embedded in my memory? I'm the type of person, for example, I'm taking the garbage out, and as I walk out onto the front porch I notice that my wife is just finishing painting the wooden railings going down the steps, thus I don't use the railings for support because I know they obviously have fresh paint on them. Then a cpl of minutes later, as I'm walking back up the steps, what is it that I do? I put my hand on one of the railings I just saw my wife painting a cpl of minutes earlier. Why did I do that when I should have known better to begin with? Who knows? It's just one of those deals, apparently.

BTW, maybe you disagree, but there is more than just one way, one procedure, to try and determine things. For example, Daniel 9:27. That doesn't require having to know any specific dates, at least in regards to the 2nd half of the 70th week. From that verse then, one can determine that all of what is recorded in that verse, or at least half of it, that it has not been fulfilled yet, thus one couldn't possibly know the date it involves, at least pertaining to the final half.

Also, keep in mind, I was referring to historic dates when this king may have been reigning, or that king may have been reigning, that I don't keep up with all of that. Do you? If I were to mention any king in the OT, can you tell me offhand without having to look it up, what years that particular king reigned during? Does that mean you are winging anything if you can't?

 

[jeffweedaman]

Verse 27 is obviously the 70th week, meaning the entire verse, so show in that verse where it ever mentions or even hints at anything that I underlined in your post above. That's called adding to the text things not present in the text.

Not the entire verse. There is a difference between Messiah and the one to come in v26....,and there is difference between the one who confirms and the one who makes desolate in v 27.

Dan 9
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

They are 40 years apart.

 

[jgr]

Not the entire verse. There is a difference between Messiah and the one to come in v26....,and there is difference between the one who confirms and the one who makes desolate in v 27.

Dan 9
26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

27 And he will confirm a covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the one who makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, gushes forth on the one who makes desolate.”

They are 40 years apart.

There is no difference. Only one individual in the passage is identified as a prince, and that is Messiah in verse 25. He is the prince in verse 26, and the desolator in verse 27, and the Romans and Jews/Israelites were His people functioning as His instruments of judgment and desolation in the destruction of the city and sanctuary.

Grammatically, all references to "he" in the passage resolve back to Messiah.