Daniel 7

[mindlight]

Whats this about - which kingdoms and why- what significance for the events of the very last days:

Daniel 7

Daniel's Dream of Four Beasts


1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
2 Daniel said: "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. 3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.
4 "The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!'
6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
8 "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
9 "As I looked,
"thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
11 "Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. 12 (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. The Interpretation of the Dream


15 "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this.
"So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: 17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth. 18 But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.'
19 "Then I wanted to know the true meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. 20 I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. 21 As I watched, this horn was waging war against the saints and defeating them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
23 "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. 24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
26 " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.' 28 "This is the end of the matter. I, Daniel, was deeply troubled by my thoughts, and my face turned pale, but I kept the matter to myself."

 

[justified]

Very soon you'll have a whole swarm of people on here throwing verses at you to explain this passage. They will come at you with their own system of understanding, etc. Please be aware that most of them are arbitrary systems. The question I ask you first is, how do you understand the book of Daniel? What is it?

 

[iamjcs]

4 kingdoms represented by 4 beasts ...
all I can say for sure at this point is they are evil.


God will create "a new earth".

"the saints of the Most High will receive" it* ... "and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever."

"Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms* under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High."

*the kingdom(s) = a new earth, best I can understand from Bible & with the Holy Spirit's help.


His king-dom will be an everlasting king-dom, and all rulers will worship and obey Him. ( He will be KING of all. )


Hope this helps,
iamjcs

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[FreezBee]

Hi mindlight;


First you might like to compare with

Hosea 13

6 When I fed them, they were satisfied;
when they were satisfied, they became proud;
then they forgot me.
7 So I will come upon them like a lion,
like a leopard I will lurk by the path. 8 Like a bear robbed of her cubs,
I will attack them and rip them open.
Like a lion I will devour them;
a wild animal will tear them apart

So Daniel may be drawing on the earlier prophecies of Hosea.

Also

Ezekiel 1

10 Their faces looked like this: Each of the four had the face of a man, and on the right side each had the face of a lion, and on the left the face of an ox; each also had the face of an eagle. 11 Such were their faces. Their wings were spread out upward; each had two wings, one touching the wing of another creature on either side, and two wings covering its body. 12 Each one went straight ahead. Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, without turning as they went. 13 The appearance of the living creatures was like burning coals of fire or like torches. Fire moved back and forth among the creatures; it was bright, and lightning flashed out of it. 14 The creatures sped back and forth like flashes of lightning. 15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces.

Again there are clear similarities.

But let's look in the Book of Daniel itself as well. Read Daniel 8, it is self-interpreting! Here we have the conquest of (Medo-)Persia by Alexander the Great, Since the animals of Daniel 7 are mentioned as kingdoms, we can assume that two of these kingdoms are the two (possibly three, if Medea is counted separate from Persia, it's not easy to discern, whether daniel does that or not ) mentioned here.

This puts Babylonia as the first, and we need to look for the fourth then, don't we? Are you familiar with the interpretations of Daniel 11? This chapter deals with the time from Cyrus through Xerxes (who attacked Greece), Alexander the Great (who attacked Persia), and then the fragments of Alexander's kingdom, here Ptolemaic Egypt ("the king of the south") and Seleucid Syria ("the king of the north"), ending with Antiochus IV Epiphanes of Syria. You'll find few that disagrees with this, but the exact interpretations of the last verses of this chapter and whether Seleucid Syria is the fourth beast or not are at variance.

Hope this helps


- FreezBee

vbmenu_register("postmenu_21699940", true);

 

[mindlight]

Very soon you'll have a whole swarm of people on here throwing verses at you to explain this passage. They will come at you with their own system of understanding, etc. Please be aware that most of them are arbitrary systems. The question I ask you first is, how do you understand the book of Daniel? What is it?

My Bible Group plan to look at this book over the coming weeks. So I want to learn the books meaning better. It is good background for later studies of Revelation.

I take the book at face value to have been written at the time of Daniel and therefore giving apparently remarkable prophecies of the events of the coming days. It is also an encouraging spiritual biography of a wise man in a pagan world. There are many lessons on how to live in that world and deal with conflict situations. Daniel was a man who saw spiritual realities long before the rest of us. Things we take for granted because they were explained to us in more detail in the new Testament are seen by him for the first time. He is a man well before his time because he is a man who sees eternity and the everlasting Kingdom.

At first sight the prophecies seem restricted to the time period leading to Christ. However having preached on revelation 12 (the woman and the dragon) last week I was aware of the ways in which this vision informed the imagery of the devil for instance re heads and horns. So I agree with iamjcs that these beasts are evil and I wonder if it has later fufilments also. Are there parallels to be made between the fourth beast and the rule of the AntiChrist .

It was interesting to see the ways FreezBee highlighted how Hosea and Ezekial informed these visions. That previous men of God had also glimpsed the realities which Daniel saw

vinsight4u encourages me to look at the sequence and distinct themes being referred too. You have the first three beasts which refer to past empires, you have the fourth beast. Then you have the Kingdom, the ancient of days and one like a son of man (as in revelation 1).

I have always assumed that the order was babylon, medes and persians, greeks and then Rome. BUt people seem to disagree about the separation of medes and persians and suggest that the fourth beast was Greece and the spin offs from Alexanders empire.

The sequence seemed to me a remarkable prediction of the order leading up to Rome and then the Christianisation of Rome. But I believe it has later parallels as Rome was not the whole world nor did it attempt to master all mankind. It could parrallel the build up to the end time scenario of Revelation. It encourages an historicist view of great historical events as well as a futurist one but so also the imagery refers to the Rome that was and the symbols are eternal ones.

If this is Greece however I need to rethink the imagery. Gods kingdom ws first preached in Rome and it was Rome not Greece that was the state that was Christianised.

The son of man vision is remarkable. This is before Jesus was born. Was Daniel seeing Jesus or envisaging Christ as he would be in glory. If Christ could be seen in glory before he was born what does that say about time.

The book testifies to the remarkable sovereignty of God and the working out of his purpose through history even as a procession of inferior demonic kingdoms rise and fall before his eternal throne.

I am looking forward to these studies and as you can see i still have questions.

 

[FreezBee]

I am looking forward to these studies and as you can see i still have questions.

I wish you good luck with your studies

And just a minor point: the Romans are mentioned by Daniel, though in a minor role:

Daniel 11
29 "At the appointed time he will invade the South again, but this time the outcome will be different from what it was before. 30 Ships of Kittim will oppose him, and he will lose heart. Then he will turn back and vent his fury against the holy covenant. He will return and show favor to those who forsake the holy covenant.

The word "Kittim" here possibly derives from the city Kition, now Larnaka, on Cyprus, but was used as a general term for the west.


- FreezBee

 

[SH89]

I have always thought that daniel 2 has the 'times of the gentiles' from man's perspective, and daniel 7 has the same future kingdoms from God's perspective.

(from the books that I have read, namely The footsteps of the Messiah)
Daniel 2:Image of a great man
Head of gold- Babylon Empire
Chest and arms of silver- Media and Persia Empire
belly and thighs of bronze- Hellestinitc Empire
legs iron/ten toes- Roman empire

Daniel 7: 4 beasts
lion-Babylon
Bear- Media & Persia- conquered with sheer size/ three ribs in mouth represents the three empires media and persia conquered- Libya, Babylon, and Egypt
leopard- Hellestinc empire- after the fall of empire, it was divided into four heads. Alexander's kingdom was split between his four generals
fourth beast- Roman empire, ten kingdoms, and eventually the antichrist.

Daniel 8 has my favorite prophecy in the scriptures, because it gives the names of the countries that each beast represents.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[mindlight]

Hi

Daniel 7 begins and I take this right from it as a key to unlocking the prophecies in the chapter.

sum

Daniel 7:1 ....Daniel....told the sum....

told the sum of the matters

I take this to mean that Daniel will combine things when he can as in summarize the details of what he saw. We thus have to break the various sections apart and see just how they would have step by step played out that night.

Such as - Daniel sees four great beasts during the first vision of the night..
Okay, but then he only told us the details of the first three beasts and then quit and went to the things seen in the second vision that night,


I saw four great beasts up from the sea

first
like a lion
had eagle's wings
made stand upon upon the feet as a man
a man's heart was given to it

{Babylon with NebuchadnezzarII}
Nebuchadnezzar - See Daniel 2:33


second great beast up from the sea
like to a bear
it raised itself up on one side

{the Medes and the Persians - just as shown in Daniel 8 -one horn was higher than the other -
See Daniel 8:3


third great beast up from the sea
like a leopard
four wings

This is again the same kingdom found in Daniel 8 as that chapter takes the Grecia kingdom and splits it four ways.

Then I go, Hey!!!!!!!!!
Where is the fourth great beast up from the sea for the time of the vision?

I keep wondering and see that next Daniel speaks of his second vision he had that night and shows us that it started at the time of a fourth beast.. Okay, Daniel was going to tell us the sum of things he saw that night. So----within the description of this fourth beast message I should also find what took place as to the time of the fourth beast for that earlier vision that Daniel didn't yet tell me about.

I do find it!!!!!!!!!!!

See how Daniel gives two different scenarios as to what happened to the little horn with the great words?

One of the endings Daniel saw in the time of the first vision for that night,

a fourth beast
second vision of the night
ten horns
up aming those ten horns comes up a little horn

What littte horn is it?
The one that Daniel saw in the first vision of the night pluck up three kings out of a fourth beast.

three of the first

first horns - the key to take that to the time of the first vision for that night

The little horn has two pictures here as to his prophecy...

I beheld till....the thrones were cast down....the books were opened...

And the other time he is pictured in a vision that night till....the beast was slain and given to the burning flame.

In the first vision of that night - Daniel saw 13 horns plus the mouth speaking great things little horn - and that mouthy little horn plucks up three kings.
That then left the ten kings for the second fourth beast vision that night.

As I study these texts more and more I increasingly think the fourth beast, as with the feet of clay of the statue is Rome. Because the daniel 2 vision describes the statue as being destroyed following the fourth kingdom and by Christianity. The Kingdom of God is the great rock that grows to be a mountain in daniel 2. That would mean the imagery in Daniel 7 was pointing to a worldwide Rome like empire of the last days and to the AntiChrist and demonic powers associated with his rule. As well as to the Rome of Jesus' day which was overthrown by Christianity (arguably) at the battle of Milvian Bridge. However that Rome was too parochial(too small) to fulfill the complete sense of the prophecy so it must also allude to the last days.


It seems to me that those who choose Greece as the fourth beast and as the feet of clay are acting a little faithlessly. They are suggesting that the book was written at the time of Antiochius who blasphemed int he temple etc rather than 4 centuries before him. They are suggesting that the book is the same genre as Jewish apocalyptic rather than affirming it as a book fo prophecy of the same era as the prophet Ezekial for instance.

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[FreezBee]

Greek Empire area//////////////////////////

Israel..............Iraq...................east...........
......................south..................................

What can we do? The world is insane - it has always been so, and it will always be so! Now, if we gathered together all religious fanatics from whichever religion they might happen to be members of and sent them off to fight each other on Mars, there might be hope for some kind of peace on earth. But they'll of course just start whining about persecutions and people not wanting to listen (their version of) the word of God.

Have you considered throwing your Bible through that TV that is your prophet and go out and meat real people?


- FreezBee

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[justified]

God has always worked through people with poor theology.

 

[FreezBee]

The tv is not my prophet nor have false prophet books been my teachers. I was called by the Lord when I was a teenager. Jesus called me to study and one day I would work for Him using that information gleaned from when I took the time to pray and learn the bible. KJV

And the Bible speaks about Iraq? Not my Bible - maybe it's a bas translation

As for going to the streets? Meeting real people?

You are not real?

No, I'm not real - not really real, that is. I only exist in your mind. Does the Bible mention me? No it doesn't, so how could I exist?

Anyway, I began to do that going to the streets when I was saved. Maybe a few days or so after, this part of a song was strongly on my spirit and I made a promise to God that I would speak to someone new about Jesus everyday. I did so for a time and then began to wrok for Jesus doing other things and still witnessing at times. About thirteen years ago, I went back to the streets with my prophecy notes this time and began to talk to what you call -real people. I would just stand up at a store and preach about Jesus - hand my notes out. I have handed them out at Christian bookstores, grocery stores, Target, the malls, and more. Sometimes I would just strike up a conversation with a person at the cash register about Jesus and the things that I had seen in the bible and then ask if they wanted my notes- they always have so far.

Not a bad approach, I admit But what are you witnessing?

I will tell you some easy ways to get started talking abou tthe Lord if you want to know them.

one is just - carry your bible
another is make shirts up and wear them - with bible prophecy messages on them..I did this about thirteen years ago. So one of the first places that I spoke on the endtimes was that shop.

Well, it's one way to get the attention of people - the problem though is, what do these prophecies mean? Many people have very different interpretations of prophecies, there is even disagreement as to, what constitutes a prophecy! The end times go way back in time - we can actually follow them all the way back to the 3rd millenium bce, so it's always been the end, and it will probably always be the end.

I intended to speak out at some stores the other day, but my bible was locked in mom's trunk by my dad - he didn't know that I had it with me. My dad too has helped me hand out my notes. Told people in this way - You should or need to read what the Lord has shown my daughter is in the bible. He is the one that started handing them out right outside the door of a christian bookstore - then I went there a bit after he had been talking to people and gained permission to speak to the employees there and hand out my notes inside the store and I have done so at others in my area.

This is all quite ok - but a lot of people do this with varying interpretations. I am regularly given the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses e.g., and I suppose that you know that they have been prophecying the end ever since their beginning.

I am not meaning to accuse you (or your father) of anything, it's just that I sense that some Christians to me appear to not fully understand how the world really revolves, and therefore, without wanting it, might push us closer to the end than they imagine, if you know what I mean.


- FreezBee

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[vinsight4u]

/