Daniel 7 When and where is the judgment/Son of Man coming on clouds to Ancient of Days

[Tigger Boy]

Tall73, I have a question for you. Were you born into the Adventists faith, and why did you leave?

 

[tall73]

Tall73, I have a question for you. Were you born into the Adventists faith, and why did you leave?

My mom was Adventist and my dad Catholic, but by the time I was born neither were anything and faith was not a big part of our household. However, my grandmother took me to church, but it was not until later, in my teen years, that I began to understand the gospel more fully and read through all the Scriptures.

Over time I also studied through Adventist teachings and compared them with others, including Catholic teaching.

I went on to be an Adventist minister. But over time I found I could not reconcile the Adventist sanctuary doctrine with various Scriptures.

I did not think it would be honest to remain in the church if I disagreed on such a key point, and so I left.

Regarding your position, I read your other thread and have a bit better of an idea of where your thinking is going. I will pray about it some more and think it over. I see some strong points in the view. But I disagree with some others.

 

[The Liturgist]

My mom was Adventist and my dad Catholic, but by the time I was born neither were anything and faith was not a big part of our household. However, my grandmother took me to church, but it was not until later, in my teen years, that I began to understand the gospel more fully and read through all the Scriptures.

Over time I also studied through Adventist teachings and compared them with others, including Catholic teaching.

I went on to be an Adventist minister. But over time I found I could not reconcile the Adventist sanctuary doctrine with various Scriptures.

I did not think it would be honest to remain in the church if I disagreed on such a key point, and so I left.

Regarding your position, I read your other thread and have a bit better of an idea of where your thinking is going. I will pray about it some more and think it over. I see some strong points in the view. But I disagree with some others.

I didn’t realize you were once an Adventist minister. That explains the theological sophistication of your posts and also your perspective.

By the way, to clarify my position, I am not sure if your fourth option precisely captures it. Specifically, I believe, based on the text of scripture, that when we are resurrected we will be judged by Christ Pantocrator. Those who have a true living faith in Christ our true God will dwell with God in the Life of the World to Come, whereas those who reject Christ will be cast into the outer darkness, which is actually something of a mercy, since if one hates God, being in the immediate presence of God would surely be unbearable, and God being infinitely merciful must surely be merciful even to those who have chosen the broad road which leads to damnation. St. John Chrysostom writes that the most dreadful torment of what we might call Hell would be the knowledge of what one has missed out on for all eternity.

Now, I should also add I don’t know precisely where this judgement will occur, although it being on Earth seems a good guess, since we will have been resurrected, and some will go on to the World to Come, and others will not, so that does make some degree of sense, but I am not precisely sure. I can research the subject if the exact location is of particular interest to you.

Also to be clear, Christ Pantocrator and Christ the Ancient of Days are not necessarily the same. Christ the Ancient of Days is the prevailing Orthodox interpretation of the vision of Isaiah, which some people think was a vision of the Father, which is possible, but there are compelling reasons to believe that the Father has never been seen, except through the Son, in that He who has seen Christ has seen the Father. Christ Pantocrator on the other hand refers to the role of Jesus Christ as the Ruler of All. In Orthodoxy we pray that our death may be blameless, painless, and a good defense before the dread judgement seat of Christ.

One of the very oldest Christian icons is a depiction of Christ Pantocrator, dating from the sixth century, at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai, which is built at the location of the Burning Bush (which is still there, by the way, since God, as is noted in Exodus, did not actually harm the bush in any way; Indeed it is a particularly large, beautiful and verdant specimen of shrubbery, which luxuriantly dominates an entire courtyard in the monastery). This icon is priceless, because it is one of the icons which survived the Iconoclast heresy that took the Byzantine Empire by storm, as the iconoclastic ideology of Islam was confused with the Second Commandment and this resulted in the unprecedented destruction of icons, which we know from the ancient house church and synagogue at Dura Europos in Syria, both of which dated from the second century and were destroyed by ISIS, existed in Judaism and in early Christianity (and we also know that icons existed in Judaism because in the Torah we find among other things detailed instructions for the making of icons in the form of cherubim to decorate the Ark of the Covenant).

 

[Tigger Boy]

I went on to be an Adventist minister. But over time I found I could not reconcile the Adventist sanctuary doctrine with various Scriptures.

I did not think it would be honest to remain in the church if I disagreed on such a key point, and so I left.

I appreciate knowing the background of those whom I exchange post with, as one can better understand where there're coming from. So let me share some of my baggage. (Everybody has baggage) Raised in a nondenominational church from earlier childhood. Mother took us kids to church and Sunday school every week. Dad died without any faith. He was a good father and husband, but would not talk faith. My present wife and I studied our way into the Adventist faith when I was thirty three, she twenty three. That was an eye opening experience, and certainly a faith experience to change our religious affiliation.

God gives each of His children spiritual gifts. I discovered mine over time, which happens to be an ongoing interest in apocalyptic prophecy, which of course is why I read and post on this site. It is often hard to find people who are comfortable about discussing closing events, even those within your home church. For your clarification, I have never had a special revelations from God in the form of a vision, if that is what you may be surmising. The most influential individual whom I highly respect for his humility and scholarship is author and founder of Wake-Up American Seminars. He established this nondenominational ministry to promote the teachings of closing events as they are revealed within the books of Daniel and Revelation.

He was born into the Adventist faith and like you pastored for a while and latter before leaving the faith he worked as an administrator at Kettering Adventist Hospital. He left the faith because his personal studies led him to the belief that the, "Historic Method of interpretation," used and promoted by Adventist, is a invalid method of interpretation. And since Mrs. White believed it to be a valid method of interpreting apocalyptic prophecy, he knew he would not be able teach his new discoveries within the church, so he felt moved like other reformers to move outside his box, to teach a new progressive truth, that the book of Daniel has been unsealed, for the final generation. As you know the book of Daniel was sealed up, "until the time of the end."

What was sealed up happens to be God's four natural laws, which must be understood, and applied correctly in order to cut through the bias diversity that divides us. All that God creates operates under His Natural Laws, prophecy is of His design. I believe in the basic Adventist doctrine, but do not except our interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy.

Blessings My Friend

 

[The Liturgist]

He left the faith because his personal studies led him to the belief that the, "Historic Method of interpretation," used and promoted by Adventist, is a invalid method of interpretation

What method of interpretation is that?

It seems to me that the exegetical approach of the Adventists is based on a conflation of Sola Scriptura, the Perspicuity of Scripture, and to a certain extent, the idea of Sufficiency of Scripture, except insofar as the inspired prophecies of Ellen G. White represent an absolute source of authority, one which exceeds even that of the Roman Catholic Magisterium, in that while Roman Catholics are free to debate doctrinal issues, since the prophecies of Ellen G. White are regarded as inspired, they are not subject to debate, and furthermore there does not even seem to be much in the way of debate regarding the correct interpretation of them, which one certainly sees in the case of the Magisterium (for example, the current Synod on Synodality).

And since Mrs. White believed it to be a valid method of interpreting apocalyptic prophecy, he knew he would not be able teach his new discoveries within the church, so he felt moved like other reformers to move outside his box, to teach a new progressive truth, that the book of Daniel has been unsealed, for the final generation. As you know the book of Daniel was sealed up, "until the time of the end."

I for one do not know that, and am not sure precisely what you are talking about. You are aware that there are multiple textual variants of the Book of Daniel, which are preserved in the Septuagint and other ancient translations and in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that as a rule the New Testament quotes the Septuagint and not the Masoretic Text?

Also, when talking about apocalyptic prophecy, are you referring to the Scriptures themselves or the writings of Ellen G White which the SDA regards as inspired prophecy?

Lastly, I find myself troubled by the fact that you seem to be saying that, within Adventism, the scope for theological discussion is apparently so narrow, and one might be regarded as “progressive” and associated, whether accurate or not, with the liberal movement in the mainline Protestant churches as opposed to the traditional, confessional approach emphasized by churches such as the LCMS/LCC of our friend @MarkRohfrietsch ? In confessional Protestant churches, and in the Orthodox church, and even in the Roman Catholic church, presbyters and bishops have considerable freedom to interpret scripture provided they remain within what one might call “the pale of Orthodoxy”, which is to say, the doctrinal definitions confessed by that particular denomination? For example, the Nicene Creed and the Ecumenical Councils.

The actual variation between all historic forms of Christianity, including the Waldensians, who were not Sabbatarians, by the way, as far as anyone is aware (since there is no evidence to assert they were, and those who survived the genocide in Piedmont and escaped to Geneva enthusiastically affiliated themselves with the Calvinist movement, and later returned to Italy, where they merged with the Methodists to form the largest Protestant church in Italy, and also there is at least one Waldensian parish in the PCUSA, in the Carolinas, where some of them settled, and there is no historical record of the Waldensians ever worshipping on Saturday?

 

[Tigger Boy]

Specifically, I believe, based on the text of scripture, that when we are resurrected we will be judged by Christ Pantocrator.

Liturgist, your statement here caught my attention. My understanding of prophecy is that at the next return of Christ/ 2nd Advent, His feet never touches earth. He gathers up the living saints, along with those who have been asleep in death, and together they meet the Lord in the air. He allows the wicked, along with a special resurrection of those who pierced Him to witness this marvelous event. Then with the sword that comes out of His mouth/a command, the wicked are struck dead. After the millennial reign which the saints spend with Christ in heaven, Christ and New Jerusalem, with the saints inside is brought here to earth, followed by the resurrection of the wicked, for they must face their creator and judge, and be informed as to why Jesus could not grant them His salvation, based on His investigative judgement which was completed before His second coming. Too, they will be informed as to the amount of restitution (time they must suffer in hell fire before their second death), that must be paid for their sins.

Now that you understand what I believe, you may better understand this question. If judgement is to take place after either the wicked or righteous are resurrected, then how is it that Christ knew who to gather up at the first resurrection (saints), and those called up in the second (wicked)?

 

[The Liturgist]

Liturgist, your statement here caught my attention. My understanding of prophecy is that at the next return of Christ/ 2nd Advent, His feet never touches earth. He gathers up the living saints, along with those who have been asleep in death, and together they meet the Lord in the air. He allows the wicked, along with a special resurrection of those who pierced Him to witness this marvelous event. Then with the sword that comes out of His mouth/a command, the wicked are struck dead. After the millennial reign which the saints spend with Christ in heaven, Christ and New Jerusalem, with the saints inside is brought here to earth, followed by the resurrection of the wicked, for they must face their creator and judge, and be informed as to why Jesus could not grant them His salvation, based on His investigative judgement which was completed before His second coming. Too, they will be informed as to the amount of restitution (time they must suffer in hell fire before their second death), that must be paid for their sins.

Aside from the Soul Sleep and Annhilationist aspects of this teaching, which originated with Ellen G. White, this Chiliast concept originated with another Restorationist preacher, John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren, who stressed the idea of a Rapture and also of a Millenial Kingdom. Regarding the Rapture, it is an entirely novel interpretation of Scripture, and while I can see the texts from which he derived it, it is worth noting that prior to John Nelson Darby, there exists no record in the preceding 1800 years of any Christians, even those generally regarded as heretical, and those known for Chiliast beliefs, for example, the fourth century Apollinarians. Indeed the Chiliasm of the Apollinarian movement no doubt contributed to, although was not the primary motivaation for, the Nicene Creed declaring that the Kingdom of Christ will have no end; the primary motivation for that rather is a realization that a literal interpretation of the Millennium is inconsistent with 2 Peter 1:11, and there is also the elephant in the room, which is that our Lord and other Scriptural figures frequently used large numbers to represent the concept of infinity, as this was not a well-known or well-understood idea outside of the philosophers in Athens and Alexandria. Of course, I have no doubt there are people who believe that our Lord only wants us to forgive people 490 times, but just as such a view is contradicted by His own statements elsewhere, the idea that His kingdom will last only a thousand years is clearly refuted by 2 Peter 1:11.

Regarding Soul Sleep, I am not sure if this doctrine originated with Ellen G. White or not, but this is a minor point.

What was definitely her unique idea was the entire concept of the Investigative Judgement, which was entirely novel and unprecedented, no church in the history of Christendom having taught anything like it.

Now that you understand what I believe, you may better understand this question.

Forgive me, but I am rather intimately familiar with the beliefs of Seventh Day Adventists, having researched the subject extensively.

If judgement is to take place after either the wicked or righteous are resurrected, then how is it that Christ knew who to gather up at the first resurrection (saints), and those called up in the second (wicked)?

Firstly, Jesus Christ is God, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, and God is omniscient. When Adventists ask me this question, it concerns me, because I have been assured repeatedly that Ellen G. White affirmed the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity, and so on, but when I see a question like this posed, I find myself at a loss as to why it is that God, who is everywhere present, and who knows what actions we shall do before we do them, would need to conduct any kind of an investigation at all? The entire concept is directly contradicted by 1 John 3:20, and Psalm 139 entire, and by Job 28:24, and numerous other verses throughout both the Old Testament and the New, so there can be no doubt as to the absolute omniscience and prescience of God, who is furthermore described in Isaiah 57:15 as inhabiting eternity.

Thus, Christ Pantocrator knows at present the identity of the Elect and the identity of the Damned. Indeed this obvious fact is one arguably the most compelling reason to believe in Calvinism or other monergist systems, however, it must be stressed that simply because God knows the identity of the elect does not require monergism, in that with the synergistic theology of non-Calvinists such as the Arminians, Methodists and the Orthodox, God freely offers His love to all via the grace of the Holy Spirit and gives us the choice as to whether or not we wish to reciprocate it, since the fact that God already knows who will chose to love Him does not mean that the choice is not ultimately ours to make. God simply is already aware of that choice.

Secondly, it should also be stressed that the Nicene Creed mentions only one Resurrection of the Dead, as does the Gospel according to St. Matthew the Apostle, ch. 25 v. 31 - 46, which makes it quite clear there is one Resurrection, and not two as Ellen White asserted, and what is more, the same pericope from the Gospel of Matthew also makes it clear that the punishment of the condemned will be eternal; it does not even remotely suggest, as Ellen White did, that Christ will individually sentence people to a certain amount of torture followed by annihilation, and indeed such an act is entirely inconsistent with what Scripture reveals about God, because God is infinitely loving, and the idea of torturing people for a various length of time and then annihilating them utterly at the end of that torture cannot be reconciled with the idea of a God who is love. However, the Orthodox concept of God’s love as a consuming fire that would be a torment to those who draw too close to Him, so that the outer darkness itself is in fact a mercy, and the punishment essentially self-inflicted through the misotheism of those who reject Christ our True God, has the advantage of being completely consistent with the overwhelming unity of Scripture that God is Love. CS Lewis really did express this point quite well for contemporary readers when he described the gates of Hell as being locked on the inside.

However, the fact that this question is consistently posed by Adventists worries me, because as I see it, one would only ask such a question if one did not, as a matter of course, continually think of Jesus Christ as being God Incarnate, of one essence with the Father and the Holy Spirit, begotten of the Father before all ages. One of my chief criticisms of several mainline Protestant churches in recent years, for example, the United Methodist Church, is that all too often, their clergy engage in sermons which amount to moral expositions, and they seldom preach about the subject of the Holy Trinity or the Incarnation, and the result of this is a laity which is poorly catechized in this respect, which is bitterly ironic considering the extremely incarnational and Trinitarian focus of the theology of John Wesley. Fortunately there are traditional Methodist churches like the Epworth Chapel on the Green in Boise, Idaho, which preserve the Wesleyan blend of Anglican liturgical reverence with Orthodox sacramental theology, which was unfortunately de-emphasized in a large number of churches which were in one way or another derived from Methodism (but often this was due to external influences, for example, it was the Quaker wife of the founder of the Salvation Army who persuaded him that they should not practice baptism or the Eucharist, which fortunately is something that some Salvationist officers (pastors) are now moving beyond, by celebrating the Lord’s Supper and by baptizing members, and also by welcoming members to receive thesee sacraments from other churches.

Note by the way, in replying to this post, we cannot debate Annhilationism in this specific forum, as the CF.com Statement of Faith requires us to debate it in Controversial Christian Theology. So if you want to respond to those specific aspects of my post, I will post a thread for us in that forum, so we can continue our discussion on the subject there.

 

[The Liturgist]

Liturgist, your statement here caught my attention. My understanding of prophecy is that at the next return of Christ/ 2nd Advent, His feet never touches earth. He gathers up the living saints, along with those who have been asleep in death, and together they meet the Lord in the air. He allows the wicked, along with a special resurrection of those who pierced Him to witness this marvelous event. Then with the sword that comes out of His mouth/a command, the wicked are struck dead. After the millennial reign which the saints spend with Christ in heaven, Christ and New Jerusalem, with the saints inside is brought here to earth, followed by the resurrection of the wicked, for they must face their creator and judge, and be informed as to why Jesus could not grant them His salvation, based on His investigative judgement which was completed before His second coming. Too, they will be informed as to the amount of restitution (time they must suffer in hell fire before their second death), that must be paid for their sins.

Now that you understand what I believe, you may better understand this question. If judgement is to take place after either the wicked or righteous are resurrected, then how is it that Christ knew who to gather up at the first resurrection (saints), and those called up in the second (wicked)?

By the way, in reference to my previous post, you might find the Nicene Creed as contained in the Christian Forums Statement of Faith, which provides doctrinal definitions and clarifications and also provides scriptural references for each statement in the creed, and indeed the Statement of Faith entire, to be of interest:

The Nicene Creed

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)
And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)
And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13) In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)
I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

Notes

* The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

** May be interpreted as baptism is a matter of obedience and not a requirement for salvation or as a regenerating ordinance.

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Annihilationism
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[BobRyan]

The purpose of this thread is to identify, if possible, the timing and location of the judgment and the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven. This topic was discussed in another thread, as it touches on a unique SDA doctrine. I have seen the following proposed times and locations:

1. The judgment is of nations,and coming of the Son of Man is Jesus going to the Father in heaven at His ascension.

2. The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father shortly prior to the second coming to judge the beast power and deliver the saints

3. The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father to conduct an investigative judgment of all professed followers of God, beginning in 1844, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in fulfillment of the type of the work of the high priest on the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, to see who is deemed worthy to have a part in the first resurrection (SDA).

4. The judgment and coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at the second coming.

5. The judgment and coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I have entertained multiple views over the years on the subject. I am now leaning towards view 4. based on recent study and conversation here, especially based on some comments by @The Liturgist. So I figured prayerfull discussion with others may help clarify.

General considerations:

- The earliest timing I could imagine for the coming ofthe Son of Man would be at Jesus' ascension. The description of the Son of Man seems to emphasize the incarnation. Jesus called Himself Son of Man repeatedly during his earthly ministry. Jesus' ascension to the right hand of God as the Christ would mark the first opportunity in my view for Christ to fulfill this scene. It could be as late as the second coming.

- There are some statements that could refer to this scene in the New Testament, and tying one's view to those allusions would seem to strengthen the case.

Certainly #4 above is very popular. So if looking for one of the most popular versions that would be high on the list.

Your #3 reads like this - 3.
"The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father to conduct an investigative judgment of all professed followers of God, beginning in 1844, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in fulfillment of the type of the work of the high priest on the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, to see who is deemed worthy to have a part in the first resurrection (SDA)."

In Dan 7 and 8 -- the most direct nonconflicted view is something like #2 and #3 in your list.

But "details" in 7 , 8, 9 show the following -

Dan 7:22 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" (as opposed to the courtroom trying to figure out if the little horn power of Dan 7 and 8 - "is a bad thing or not").

That Judgment follows the rule of Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them... not everyone who SAYS to Me Lord Lord - will enter.. but he who DOES..." -

It follows the NT rule of Rom 2 "it is not the hearers of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justified ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge" . Romans 2 contrasts failing examples in the judgment - to succeeding ones.

Removing all doubt for how it is in Dan 7 "judgment is passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22.

Both Dan 7 and 8 point to the same judgment event as being that which delivers the saints from the persecuting power of the little horn.

Both Dan 7 points to the fact that the saints are persecuted the entire time - until that event is completed.

So then it is not even possible that this judgment is happening on Earth while Christ is present at the second coming - because the chapter is explicit in stating that the saints continue to lose, to be overcome by the wicked little horn power of Dan 7 (and Dan 8) until that judgment completes.

It is not very credible to argue that while Christ is on Earth at the second coming - going one by one through all the cases of mankind - the saints continue to be overcome by the little horn power. (yet another detail that does not fit that scenario #4)

 

[BobRyan]

Aside from the Soul Sleep and Annhilationist aspects of this teaching, which originated with Ellen G. White

false accusations need something better than "because I asssume that is the case".

There are quite a few SDAs that argue that they get this teaching from the Bible rather than imagining that it originated with Ellen White.
There are quite a few non-SDA Bible teachers/scholars that also argue that same point.

, this Chiliast concept originated with another Restorationist preacher, John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren, who stressed the idea of a Rapture and also of a Millenial Kingdom.

Both of which are found in the bible in places like Matt 24, 1 Thess 4 and Rev 20. Sources very much older than Darby.
No one today claims that instead of the plain reading of the texts above - they choose to read and follow Darby.

I guess we all knew that.

Regarding the Rapture, it is an entirely novel interpretation of Scripture

Actually the plain reading of the text --- without any creative ideas having to be inserted.

1 Thess 4:13-18​

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as indeed the rest of mankind do, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose from the dead, so also God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus. 15 For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, comfort one another with these words.​

The idea that we would need a novel reading by Darby to discover that the text says "the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord." --- is hard to find credible

Matt 24:​

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.​

The idea that we would need a novel reading by Darby to discover that the text says " But immediately after the tribulation ... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." -- is hardly credible

John 14:1-3​

“Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many rooms; if that were not so, I would have told you, because I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will take you to Myself, so that where I am, there you also will be.​

The idea that we would need a novel reading of the text by Darby to discover that Christ said He was GOING to His father's house "I GO there to prepare a place for you" - and that place is where He said the Father is "Our Father who is in HEAVEN" Matt 6. Then Christ adds that He is coming to take the saints to that place He prepared for them --- is hardly something we need Darby to "read for us in a new and novel way" to get to the plain reading of the text.

, and while I can see the texts from which he derived it, it is worth noting that prior to John Nelson Darby, there exists no record in the preceding 1800 years of any Christians,

IF you wipe out those texts so that they do not exist in those 1800 years -- such that writing the very teaching you oppose in those 1800's as part of the events IN those 1800's -- is not to be included as something that the early church wrote, taught, believed -- then it is possible to get to your assumption above.

Regarding Soul Sleep, I am not sure if this doctrine originated with Ellen G. White or not, but this is a minor point.

Well we see it in John 11 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18 and a great many scholars who are "not Ellen White" -- noticed those texts as well.

What was definitely her unique idea was the entire concept of the Investigative Judgement,

Also not true.

Dan 7 shows judgment out of books of record in vs 9-10 and a great many Bible scholars "noticed". The term "investigative" to apply to the Bible details of judgment out of books of record - could possibly be credited to Ellen White - but even that is in doubt.

Certainly no credible scholar argues that Ellen White was the first Adventist or first Christian to 'notice' that judgment was taking place out of books of record in Dan 7:9-10.

 

[BobRyan]

Liturgist, your statement here caught my attention. My understanding of prophecy is that at the next return of Christ/ 2nd Advent, His feet never touches earth. He gathers up the living saints, along with those who have been asleep in death, and together they meet the Lord in the air.

True. That is what 1 Thess 4:13-18 says.
Matt 24:29-33 also supports it.

He allows the wicked, along with a special resurrection of those who pierced Him to witness this marvelous event. Then with the sword that comes out of His mouth/a command, the wicked are struck dead.

True. That is what Rev 19 and 2 Thess 1:5-8 say.

After the millennial reign which the saints spend with Christ in heaven, Christ and New Jerusalem, with the saints inside is brought here to earth, followed by the resurrection of the wicked, for they must face their creator and judge

True. That is what Rev 20 says

Now that you understand what I believe, you may better understand this question. If judgement is to take place after either the wicked or righteous are resurrected, then how is it that Christ knew who to gather up at the first resurrection (saints), and those called up in the second (wicked)?

This is a good question.

But another one like it is -- "how is it that Dan 7 says that the wicked continue to torment and overcome the saints the entire time the judgment is going on - such that only when it completes are the saints freed from the torment of the wicked -- and yet you claim that is all happening while Christ is right here on Earth - engaged in judging each case? That would mean that the wicked stand in front of Christ and martyr the saints as He is judging ?? are you sure you have thought that through??"

 

[BobRyan]

It seems to me that the exegetical approach of the Adventists is based on a conflation of Sola Scriptura, the Perspicuity of Scripture, and to a certain extent, the idea of Sufficiency of Scripture, except insofar as the inspired prophecies of Ellen G. White represent an absolute source of authority, one which exceeds even that of the Roman Catholic Magisterium,

You must be new to the study of what Adventists believe and the Bible doctrine of the gift of prophecy.

Bible writers themselves argue that prophecy is one of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12 and is to be tested "sola scirptura" just as Paul was in Acts 17:11 and just as Christ applied it in Mark 7:7-13.

Are you familiar with those texts? They show sola scriptura testing WHILE the gift of prophecy was in full effect even by the most narrowed POV that some groups have on this subject. No one argues that the existence of a prophet deleted sola scriptura testing.

And as for how they treated those sources --

2 Pet 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

I for one do not know that, and am not sure precisely what you are talking about. You are aware that there are multiple textual variants of the Book of Daniel, which are preserved in the Septuagint and other ancient translations and in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that as a rule the New Testament quotes the Septuagint and not the Masoretic Text?

The NT was written in Greek and the Septuagint is a Greek text of the OT - as we all know. So it is not a sign that the Jews "rejected the Heb bible" - that a Greek NT quotes a Greek OT document for its audience educated to read Greek texts as a result of a the Greek empire that preceded Rome.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.

 

[tall73]

Liturgist, your statement here caught my attention. My understanding of prophecy is that at the next return of Christ/ 2nd Advent, His feet never touches earth. He gathers up the living saints, along with those who have been asleep in death, and together they meet the Lord in the air. He allows the wicked, along with a special resurrection of those who pierced Him to witness this marvelous event. Then with the sword that comes out of His mouth/a command, the wicked are struck dead.

I agree the elect are gathered, and 1 Thess. 4 indicates they meet the Lord in the air. We agree that Revelation speaks of every eye seeing Him, including those who pierced Him.

However, please clarify when you think the following happen:

Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’​

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ 41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

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[tall73]

Both Dan 7 points to the fact that the saints are persecuted the entire time - until that event is completed.

You did not respond to my first post to you in this thread. But it answers this allegation that you make, which you did not quote the text to show.

To review, I noted:

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It describes the events on earth, including the horn making war on the saints UNTIL the Ancient of Days CAME . He wouldn't have to come there if it was in heaven where He is already at.​

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Bob, do you think this text that reference coming with the clouds of heaven is talking about going to heaven?​

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Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

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The various allusions to the text indicate the timing is the second coming. And you have not addressed that.​

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The text of Daniel 7 says that 21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom

The making war against the saints and prevailing happens UNTIL the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints. The coming of the Ancient of Days ends the activity of the horn. And it ushers in the time when the saints receive the kingdom.

The allusions to the Son of Man coming on the clouds with glory refer to the second coming:

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

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And we see a judgment from the throne when the Son of Man comes in His glory with the angels:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.​

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[tall73]

God gives each of His children spiritual gifts. I discovered mine over time, which happens to be an ongoing interest in apocalyptic prophecy, which of course is why I read and post on this site.

I read your posts in the other thread.

I would say so far the strong point of your interpretation of Daniel 7 is that in your interpretation the judgment results in the removal of power of the little horn, and delivering of the saints at a time that at least involves an historical even regarding the papacy.

I see less evidence for the connection of Rev. 5 and Daniel 7.

Do you have more information on the combination beast of Revelation 13, and your view that multiple world religions are at play?

 

[Tigger Boy]

I see less evidence for the connection of Rev. 5 and Daniel 7.

Tall73, As I have stated in the past, all events within apocalyptic prophecy are time stamped when they are fulfilled. So, when does Jesus take the book sealed with seven seals in Rev., 5:7? Shortly after his ascension, in 1798, or sometime in the future? Daniel 7, provides the key. Consider the parallels between Dan.7, and Rev. 4&5. The most important in these two scenes is that Jesus is especially honored. Daniel sees Jesus receive, authority, glory and sovereign power when the court scene commences in 1798. According to John, Jesus is given the seven attributes of God- wealth, wisdom, glory, honor, power, praise and authority, when He is found worthy to receive the book of life/sealed with seven seals. The point is that according to Daniel, Jesus receives sovereign power in 1798 and according to John, Jesus receives all the attributes of God when He is found worthy. Are these two events related? Do they occur in the same service? Yes.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Do you have more information on the combination beast of Revelation 13, and your view that multiple world religions are at play?

Yes, consider the follow commentary by Larry Wilson of which I have quoted in the past, I think His discovery of God's four natural laws He uses in interpreting prophecy makes perfect common sense of the prophecies.

{13:1 - Continued} The composite beast had ten horns and seven heads. Each of the seven heads had a blasphemous name written on it and there were ten crowns on the ten horns.

For reasons presented in our study on Revelation 17, the seven heads on the composite beast represent the seven religious systems of the world: Atheism, Heathenism, Judaism, Eastern Mysticism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism. The blasphemous name associated with each head indicates that each head (each religious system) is anti-Christ. This means that each religious system is opposed to the sovereign authority and demands of Jesus Christ. This opposition will be demonstrated during the 1,260 days allotted to the Two Witnesses. The 144,000 will proclaim the gospel of Jesus (the demands of Jesus Christ) and each religious system on Earth will oppose it. The problem is that each head of Babylon claims to know God and speak His truth, but the seven religions of the world are in fact, an insult to Almighty God. They do not know Him, speak for Him, obey Him, or represent His interests. In fact, if the seven religious systems of the world knew Jesus and had some understanding of the Bible, they would listen to His servants, the 144,000. The seven religious systems of the world will fiercely oppose the efforts and testimony of the 144,000 and they will also persecute those who embrace and obey the gospel of Jesus.

You may recall in Revelation 12:3 that seven diadems (crowns of authority) rested on the seven heads, but in this prophecy the diadems rest on the ten horns. This transition means there is
a change in persecuting authority. For 1,260 years, religious authorities persecuted the woman. During the Great Tribulation, civil authorities will persecute the remnant of the woman. Babylon will operate as a church state. The seven heads represent the church side of Babylon and the ten horns represent the state side of Babylon. When Babylon is created, the composite beast will function as a global church state. The religious leaders of Babylon will make demands and the civil authorities in each nation will carry them out.

Rev. 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

{2} I noticed that the body of the composite beast resembled a leopard, but it had feet and claws like a bear and a mouth like a lion. I also saw that the source of Babylon’s awesome power was Lucifer. The devil gave this government beast its power, its throne, and great authority. The power within this puppet beast was “super- natural. This beast from the sea is called a ‘composite beast’ because it has features borrowed from three awesome predators. This combination of features exposes the predatory nature of Baby- lon. The composite beast will be swift like a leopard, ferocious like a bear and deadly like a lion. Currently, the world does not anticipate the first four trumpets or the creation of the composite beast. Millions of Christians are totally unaware of what the Bible predicts. They have no idea that the devil has been preparing for more than two hundred years to ambush every- one who follows Jesus. Lucifer is crouched like a lion, waiting to pounce on the remnant of the woman with the ferocity of a grizzly bear and no one can outrun a leopard. When millions of Christians are forced by circumstances to admit that there will not be a pre-tribulation rapture, when millions of other Christians are forced to admit that the seven trumpets were not fulfilled in past history, a devastating tsunami of bitterness will flood through Christianity and wash many away.

Rev. 13:3
And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

{3} One of the seven heads seemed to have had a fatal wound, but when the composite beast rose from the sea, the fatal wound had been healed (notice the past-perfect tense). Because the rst four trumpets had destroyed much of the world and its population, the survivors sought to appease God’s wrath by following the instructions of the composite beast.

The seven heads on the composite beast represent the seven religious systems of the world: Atheism, Heathenism, Judaism, Islam, Eastern Mysticism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. In terms of political clout and religious prowess, the Roman Catholic Church (having approximately one billion members and one leader) is the preeminent religion of the world. The Roman Catholic Church today has diplomatic relations with heads of state in 179 nations. History and Bible prophecy indicate the sixth head79 of the composite beast (the Roman Catholic Church) received a fatal wound in 1798, but the Bible also indicates the fatal wound will be healed when Babylon forms. The healing of the wounded head points forward to a time when a pope will be restored to a position that has persecuting power. In fact, the pope will lead a coalition of religious leaders into persecuting the remnant of the woman.

During the first four trumpets, the religious leaders of the world will unite in an effort to appease God’s wrath. They will create a global authority (Babylon) that will be responsible for “helping” the nations of the world appease God. World leaders will select the pope to oversee this authority. This does not mean that the pope will be able to impose Catholic beliefs on non- Catholics (approximately 85% of the world is non-Catholic). Instead, the pope will be appointed to lead a coalition of religious leaders in a united endeavor to appease God on a nation by nation basis so that His wrath will cease. At first, almost everyone will accept the pope as the leader because they realize that something must be done quickly. Millions of people will be traumatized and religiously disoriented (humbled and confused) by the evidences of God’s wrath. The Catholic Church has an existing network already established among the nations, so the pope will be the obvious choice to lead Babylon, but he will not serve alone. Religious and political leaders of the world will also serve on Babylon’s board of directors and this unity will enable Babylon to move quickly, as the leopard portion of this composite beast reminds us.