Daniel 7 When and where is the judgment/Son of Man coming on clouds to Ancient of Days

[tall73]

Daniel 7 describes four beasts which represent kings/kingdoms. The fourth beast is different than the others, and a little horn from that beast was speaking pompous words and making war against the saints.

The chapter also shows a judgment where the Ancient of Days, attended by many thousands, sits for judgment, with open books.

Another scene shows the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, and receiving an everlasting kingdom.

The saints have judgment passed in their favor, and the time comes for them to inherit the kingdom. Three of the beasts have their dominion stripped, and the fourth beast is killed, with the dominion of the little horn of the fourth beast removed.

The purpose of this thread is to identify, if possible, the timing and location of the judgment and the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven. This topic was discussed in another thread, as it touches on a unique SDA doctrine. I have seen the following proposed times and locations:

1. The judgment is of nations,and coming of the Son of Man is Jesus going to the Father in heaven at His ascension.

2. The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father shortly prior to the second coming to judge the beast power and deliver the saints

3. The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father to conduct an investigative judgment of all professed followers of God, beginning in 1844, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in fulfillment of the type of the work of the high priest on the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, to see who is deemed worthy to have a part in the first resurrection (SDA).

4. The judgment and coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at the second coming.

5. The judgment and coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I have entertained multiple views over the years on the subject. I am now leaning towards view 4. based on recent study and conversation here, especially based on some comments by @The Liturgist. So I figured prayerfull discussion with others may help clarify.

General considerations:

- The earliest timing I could imagine for the coming ofthe Son of Man would be at Jesus' ascension. The description of the Son of Man seems to emphasize the incarnation. Jesus called Himself Son of Man repeatedly during his earthly ministry. Jesus' ascension to the right hand of God as the Christ would mark the first opportunity in my view for Christ to fulfill this scene. It could be as late as the second coming.

- There are some statements that could refer to this scene in the New Testament, and tying one's view to those allusions would seem to strengthen the case.

 

[tall73]

Here are some of the points that support view 4, that the judgment/coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at Jesus' second coming. I will start in the passage itself, and then look at texts that make allusion to Daniel 7.

The passage begins with a vision of Daniel showing 4 beasts, which we later find out represent kings/kingdoms. There are various interpretations as to what kingdoms the beasts represent. The fourth beast is different than the others, and has a little horn that has eyes and speaks pompous words.

After seeing this description of the beast powers Daniel sees the Ancient of Days along with many thousands attending Him, seated for judgment.

The vision indicates the removal of the dominion of three of the powers, and the slaying of the fourth:

Daniel 7:11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

The vision culminates in One like a Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days, and He is given dominion over an everlasting kingdom:

Daniel 7:13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

The vision parallels themes from Daniel chapter 2 which indicates an everlasting kingdom shattering the kingdoms of the world, only here we are given more details with the introduction of the Son of Man.

Begnning in verse 16 the vision is intepreted.

Daniel 7:16 I came near to one of those who stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things

An example of the symbolic nature of the vision is seen in the first element explained:

Daniel 7:17 ‘Those great beasts, which are four, are four kings which arise out of the earth.

This statement affirms that the beasts are kings. Later in the interpretation "king" is seen to be associated with kingdoms:

Daniel 7:23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth


The next part of the interpretation introduces the saints as involved in the vision, where they are said to receive the kingdom.

Daniel 8:18 But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom, and possess the kingdom forever, even forever and ever.’

While Daniel asks his next question, focused on the fourth beast, and the little horn, he also elaborates on what he saw with additional information regarding the vision, about the saints, the judgment of the court, etc.:

Daniel 7:19 “Then I wished to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its nails of bronze, which devoured, broke in pieces, and trampled the residue with its feet; 20 and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows. 21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

In this inquiry by Daniel we get more details about the timing and location of the judgment referenced in Daniel 7:

Daniel 7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Daniel, in relating more about what he saw, says the timing is such that the horn makes war against the saints UNTIL the Ancent of Days "came" and a judgment was made in favor of the saints.

The beast, and the saints, were on earth. The Ancient of Days "came" and the judgment was held, which halted the horn making war, and rendered judgment in the saint's favor.

This also leads to the the saints, who are on earth, now possessing the kingdom.

In interpreting what Daniel related above the following is stated:

Daniel 7:23 “Thus he said:
‘The fourth beast shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms,
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.


The explanation again indicates that saints are given into the hand of the little horn, BUT the court shall be seated and take his dominion. So the sitting of the court is again seen to correlate to the cessation of the horn's dominion, which gives clues about timing.

This is all in line with the second coming, as the vision also shows the Son of Man coming to the judgment scene with the Ancient of Days. And this is supported by the texts that allude to this scene in the New Testament.

 

[tall73]

Jesus used the term Son of Man in the New Testament regarding Himself repeatedly, calling to mind Daniel 7. Note the following during the trial of Jesus before the high priest:

Matthew 26:62 And the high priest arose and said to Him, “Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?” 63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, “I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!” 64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Jesus indicates that the high priest will witness this event where the Son of Man comes on the clouds of heaven.

This may suggest an event during the high priest's own time (some might point to AD 70 judgment on Jerusalem). But another text suggests this may refer to the second coming:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Those who pierced Him will witness His glory at the right hand of the Father, at His coming.

Note the parallels to this text, also describing the second coming. The trumpet, and gathering of the elect is tied to the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We know that Jesus will judge from the throne at His coming, again referring to the language of Daniel 7:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world

The Son of Man, coming in His glory, and all the angels with Him, judging from the throne, and giving to those on His right hand the kingdom, as was referenced in Daniel.

Moreover, in Jude we see the following:

Jude 14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”

Part of the "judgment on all" is convicting all who are ungodly of their deeds. As we read in Matthew 25, and similar texts, this is what happens. They object and Jesus refutes them:

Matthew 25;41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ 44 “Then they also will answer [d]Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

and

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

The timing of the judgment is referred to in 1 Corinthians 4:5, and is stated to be when the Lord comes, and when each receives commendation from God:

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God.

Another thought, if the little horn is parallel to the man of sin in 1 Thessalonians then the destruction of that power is stated to happen at Jesus' coming.

 

[tall73]

In searching for patristic comments I found that those who commented on the passage tied the coming of the Son of Man to the second advent of Christ:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho chapter 31

“But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him. These are the words: ‘I beheld till the thrones were set; and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like a fiery flame, His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The books were opened, and the judgment was set. I beheld then the voice of the great words which the horn speaks: and the beast was beat down, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. And the rest of the beasts were taken away from their dominion, and a period of life was given to the beasts until a season and time. I saw in the vision of the night, and, behold, one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and He came to the Ancient of days, and stood before Him. And they who stood by brought Him near; and there were given Him power and kingly honour, and all nations of the earth by their families, and all glory, serve Him. And His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be taken away; and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.


Tertullian Against Marcion Book 3, chapter 7

Now these signs of degradation quite suit His first coming, just as the tokens of His majesty do His second advent, when He shall no longer remain “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence,” but after His rejection become “the chief corner-stone,” accepted and elevated to the top place of the temple, even His church, being that very stone in Daniel, cut out of the mountain, which was to smite and crush the image of the secular kingdom. Of this advent the same prophet says: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days; and they brought Him before Him, and there was given Him dominion and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away; and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Book 4 chapter 39

This will be the great day of the Lord, and of the glorious coming of the Son of man from heaven, of which Daniel wrote: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven" “And there was given unto Him the kingly power, ' which (in the parable) “He went away into a far country to receive for Himself,” leaving money to His servants wherewithal to trade and get increase

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist

For as two advents of our Lord and Saviour are indicated in the Scriptures, the one being His first advent in the flesh, which took place without honour by reason of His being set at nought, as Isaiah spake of Him aforetime, saying, “We saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness, but His form was despised (and) rejected (lit. = deficient) above all men; a man smitten and familiar with bearing infirmity, (for His face was turned away); He was despised, and esteemed not.” But His second advent is announced as glorious, when He shall come from heaven with the host of angels, and the glory of His Father, as the prophet saith, “Ye shall see the King in glory;” and, “I saw one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and he came to the Ancient of days, and he was brought to Him. And there were given Him dominion, and honour, and glory, and the kingdom; all tribes and languages shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.

Jerome, A Commentary on the Apostles' Creed Section 34


The Prophet Malachi says, “Behold the Lord Almighty shall come, and who shall abide the day of His coming, or who shall abide the sight of Him? For He doth come as the fire of a furnace and as fuller’s soap: and He shall sit, refining and purifying as it were gold and silver. But that thou mayest know more certainly Who this Lord is of Whom these things are said, hear what the Prophet Daniel also foretells: “I saw,” saith he, “in the vision of the night, and, behold, One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven, and He came nigh to the Ancient of days, and was brought near before Him; and there was given to Him dominion, and honour, and a kingdom. And all peoples, tribes, and languages shall serve Him. And His dominion is an eternal dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.” By these words we are taught not only of His coming and judgment, but of His dominion and kingdom, that His dominion is eternal, and His kingdom indestructible, without end; as it is said in the Creed

Basil, Letter to a Fallen Virgin

Picture to me, as it rises in your imagination, the conclusion of all human life, when the Son of God shall come in His glory with His angels, “For he shall come and shall not keep silence; when He shall come to judge the quick and dead, to render to every one according to his work; when that terrible trumpet with its mighty voice shall wake those that have slept through the ages, and they that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. Remember the vision of Daniel, and how he brings the judgment before us: “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool;…and His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened,” clearly disclosing in the hearing of all, angels and men, things good and evil, things done openly and in secret, deeds, words, and thoughts all at once. What then must those men be who have lived wicked lives? Where then shall that soul hide which in the sight of all these spectators shall suddenly be revealed in its fulness of shame?

 

[David Kent]

The saints will be raised on the last day. John 6:39,40,44,54, and 11:54, The Judgement will also be on the last day. John 12:48

 

[BobRyan]

Daniel 7 describes four beasts which represent kings/kingdoms. The fourth beast is different than the others, and a little horn from that beast was speaking pompous words and making war against the saints.

The chapter also shows a judgment where the Ancient of Days, attended by many thousands, sits for judgment, with open books.

Dan 7 -- it is in heaven.

As we saw in this Dan 7 thread -- two weeks ago

Adventists affirm Dan 7 pre-advent Investigative judgment (and then Dan 8 and Dan 9 for it being started in 1844)

Dan 7 describes the pre-advent Investigative judgment - vs 9-10 Pre-Advent Investigative (review of books, records in heaven by "the court") -- vs 21-22 "Judgment passed in favor of the saints" -- so they are being evaluated/reviewed/discussed (as Rom 2:4-16 describes it)...

www.christianforums.com

Another scene shows the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, and receiving an everlasting kingdom.

again -- heaven.

Matt 6 "our Father IN HEAVEN hallowed be Thy name"...
Matt 10:33 33 But whoever denies Me before people, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Dan 7​

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.


13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
=====================

The Son of man comes to the Ancient of Days - already identified in vs 9
The Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days - the courtroom scene in heaven.

The wicked torment the wicked as Dan 7 says - for the entire time that the courtroom event in heaven is going on - UNTIL judgment is completed and its passed "in favor of the saints".

 

[tall73]

again -- heaven.

Matt 6 "our Father IN HEAVEN hallowed be Thy name"...
Matt 10:33 33 But whoever denies Me before people, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

It describes the events on earth, including the horn making war on the saints UNTIL the Ancient of Days CAME . He wouldn't have to come there if it was in heaven where He is already at.

Dan 7​

The Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days - the courtroom scene in heaven.

Bob, do you think this text that reference coming with the clouds of heaven is talking about going to heaven?

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The various allusions to the text indicate the timing is the second coming. And you have not addressed that.

 

[eleos1954]

Daniel 7 describes four beasts which represent kings/kingdoms. The fourth beast is different than the others, and a little horn from that beast was speaking pompous words and making war against the saints.

The chapter also shows a judgment where the Ancient of Days, attended by many thousands, sits for judgment, with open books.

Another scene shows the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, and receiving an everlasting kingdom.

The saints have judgment passed in their favor, and the time comes for them to inherit the kingdom. Three of the beasts have their dominion stripped, and the fourth beast is killed, with the dominion of the little horn of the fourth beast removed.

The purpose of this thread is to identify, if possible, the timing and location of the judgment and the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds of heaven. This topic was discussed in another thread, as it touches on a unique SDA doctrine. I have seen the following proposed times and locations:

1. The judgment is of nations,and coming of the Son of Man is Jesus going to the Father in heaven at His ascension.

2. The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father shortly prior to the second coming to judge the beast power and deliver the saints

3. The judgment and the coming of the Son of Man is in heaven, and Jesus is coming to the Father to conduct an investigative judgment of all professed followers of God, beginning in 1844, at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8, in fulfillment of the type of the work of the high priest on the day of atonement in the earthly sanctuary, to see who is deemed worthy to have a part in the first resurrection (SDA).

4. The judgment and coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at the second coming.

5. The judgment and coming of the Son of Man is on earth, at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I have entertained multiple views over the years on the subject. I am now leaning towards view 4. based on recent study and conversation here, especially based on some comments by @The Liturgist. So I figured prayerfull discussion with others may help clarify.

General considerations:

- The earliest timing I could imagine for the coming ofthe Son of Man would be at Jesus' ascension. The description of the Son of Man seems to emphasize the incarnation. Jesus called Himself Son of Man repeatedly during his earthly ministry. Jesus' ascension to the right hand of God as the Christ would mark the first opportunity in my view for Christ to fulfill this scene. It could be as late as the second coming.

- There are some statements that could refer to this scene in the New Testament, and tying one's view to those allusions would seem to strengthen the case.

Judgement takes place in heaven before Jesus returns. When He returns the first resurrection happens (of the saved) .... but that is not the full end.

All the saved are taken to heaven for 1,000 years then the 2nd resurrection happens ... the lost.

Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father at His resurrection as both God and human (incarnate) and will remain that way for eternity.

 

[David Kent]

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The same day , we read in several places in John's gospel, that the saints will be raised.

 

[Tigger Boy]

Dan 7​

9 “I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were serving Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court convened,
And the books were opened.


13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a son of man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 And to Him was given dominion,
Honor, and a kingdom,
So that all the peoples, nations, and populations of all languages
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
=====================

The Son of man comes to the Ancient of Days - already identified in vs 9
The Son of man comes with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of Days - the courtroom scene in heaven.

The wicked torment the wicked as Dan 7 says - for the entire time that the courtroom event in heaven is going on - UNTIL judgment is completed and its passed "in favor of the saints".

Bob, To start this post I would like to say, that the term, "With the Clouds of Heaven," which you seem to think can only refer to a heavenly event, whereas Tall73 sees it as only and earthly event, is actually a event that will happen in both places as prophecy indicates. The term means, Christ was brought into the presence of the Father in the courtroom event in heaven by a large host of angles, and when Jesus returns to earth, He again due to His glory, is ushered before earth by a large host of angles. Is this not possible?

I direct this post mainly to your closing statement. If I understand you correctly, you understand the heavenly Judgement event in Dan. 7, as starting in 1844, and will continue to the coming of Christ, during which time the saints will be persecuted until the judgement is completed, and a ruling in favor of the saints is made.

However, I believe prophecy indicates something very different. I think you are overlooking the most important part of this prophecy in which Daniel is given it's interpretation. How much easier can it get?

Dan. 7:25, ([ ] insertions mine) He [the little horn/11th horn/papacy] shall speak pompous words against the most high, and shall persecute the saints [those living during the time, times, and half a time/ 1260 literal yrs./ 538-1798 time period] of the most high, and shell intend to change times and laws [the seventh day weekly sabbath of the moral law/ ten commandments] Then the saints [those mentioned above] shall be given [by God] into his [papacy's]hand for a time, times, and half a time [1260 years/ 538-1798]

(26) But [however] the court shall be seated, and they [The Father and Jesus] shall take away his [the little horn/ 11 horn/ papacy's dominion].

History confirms the following: which I think you well understand. The, "little horn power that uprooted ten previous kings coming out of the demise of the forth beast, Rome, is the papacy. It ruled over the kings of Europe for 1260 years both in civil and religious affairs, and millions of saints were persecuted for standing on the Bible only as a rule of faith and not the teachings of the Catholic Church. This time is without doubt 538- 1798, at which time the pope was taken captive, and the power of the Little horn/ papacy was broken.

The interpretation give by the angle before Daniel informed him that at the appointed time, 1798/ end of the 1260 years, the Father and Jesu's ruling would take place in heaven at a courtroom event, and the papacy's power over those saints who had experienced the previous 1260 yrs., of persecution would come to and end. The prophecy does not predict the papacy to rule over the saints beyond the 1260 years to the coming of Christ as you state.

I know this is hard for you to grasp, however, the angle has interpreted the vision.

 

[The Liturgist]

In searching for patristic comments I found that those who commented on the passage tied the coming of the Son of Man to the second advent of Christ:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho chapter 31

“But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him. These are the words: ‘I beheld till the thrones were set; and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like a fiery flame, His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The books were opened, and the judgment was set. I beheld then the voice of the great words which the horn speaks: and the beast was beat down, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. And the rest of the beasts were taken away from their dominion, and a period of life was given to the beasts until a season and time. I saw in the vision of the night, and, behold, one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and He came to the Ancient of days, and stood before Him. And they who stood by brought Him near; and there were given Him power and kingly honour, and all nations of the earth by their families, and all glory, serve Him. And His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be taken away; and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.


Tertullian Against Marcion Book 3, chapter 7

Now these signs of degradation quite suit His first coming, just as the tokens of His majesty do His second advent, when He shall no longer remain “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence,” but after His rejection become “the chief corner-stone,” accepted and elevated to the top place of the temple, even His church, being that very stone in Daniel, cut out of the mountain, which was to smite and crush the image of the secular kingdom. Of this advent the same prophet says: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days; and they brought Him before Him, and there was given Him dominion and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away; and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Book 4 chapter 39

This will be the great day of the Lord, and of the glorious coming of the Son of man from heaven, of which Daniel wrote: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven" “And there was given unto Him the kingly power, ' which (in the parable) “He went away into a far country to receive for Himself,” leaving money to His servants wherewithal to trade and get increase

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist

For as two advents of our Lord and Saviour are indicated in the Scriptures, the one being His first advent in the flesh, which took place without honour by reason of His being set at nought, as Isaiah spake of Him aforetime, saying, “We saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness, but His form was despised (and) rejected (lit. = deficient) above all men; a man smitten and familiar with bearing infirmity, (for His face was turned away); He was despised, and esteemed not.” But His second advent is announced as glorious, when He shall come from heaven with the host of angels, and the glory of His Father, as the prophet saith, “Ye shall see the King in glory;” and, “I saw one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and he came to the Ancient of days, and he was brought to Him. And there were given Him dominion, and honour, and glory, and the kingdom; all tribes and languages shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.

Jerome, A Commentary on the Apostles' Creed Section 34


The Prophet Malachi says, “Behold the Lord Almighty shall come, and who shall abide the day of His coming, or who shall abide the sight of Him? For He doth come as the fire of a furnace and as fuller’s soap: and He shall sit, refining and purifying as it were gold and silver. But that thou mayest know more certainly Who this Lord is of Whom these things are said, hear what the Prophet Daniel also foretells: “I saw,” saith he, “in the vision of the night, and, behold, One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven, and He came nigh to the Ancient of days, and was brought near before Him; and there was given to Him dominion, and honour, and a kingdom. And all peoples, tribes, and languages shall serve Him. And His dominion is an eternal dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.” By these words we are taught not only of His coming and judgment, but of His dominion and kingdom, that His dominion is eternal, and His kingdom indestructible, without end; as it is said in the Creed

Basil, Letter to a Fallen Virgin

Picture to me, as it rises in your imagination, the conclusion of all human life, when the Son of God shall come in His glory with His angels, “For he shall come and shall not keep silence; when He shall come to judge the quick and dead, to render to every one according to his work; when that terrible trumpet with its mighty voice shall wake those that have slept through the ages, and they that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. Remember the vision of Daniel, and how he brings the judgment before us: “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool;…and His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened,” clearly disclosing in the hearing of all, angels and men, things good and evil, things done openly and in secret, deeds, words, and thoughts all at once. What then must those men be who have lived wicked lives? Where then shall that soul hide which in the sight of all these spectators shall suddenly be revealed in its fulness of shame?

Nice Patristics.

 

[Tigger Boy]

In searching for patristic comments I found that those who commented on the passage tied the coming of the Son of Man to the second advent of Christ:

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho chapter 31

“But if so great a power is shown to have followed and to be still following the dispensation of His suffering, how great shall that be which shall follow His glorious advent! For He shall come on the clouds as the Son of man, so Daniel foretold, and His angels shall come with Him. These are the words: ‘I beheld till the thrones were set; and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool. His throne was like a fiery flame, His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him. Thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The books were opened, and the judgment was set. I beheld then the voice of the great words which the horn speaks: and the beast was beat down, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. And the rest of the beasts were taken away from their dominion, and a period of life was given to the beasts until a season and time. I saw in the vision of the night, and, behold, one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and He came to the Ancient of days, and stood before Him. And they who stood by brought Him near; and there were given Him power and kingly honour, and all nations of the earth by their families, and all glory, serve Him. And His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not be taken away; and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.


Tertullian Against Marcion Book 3, chapter 7

Now these signs of degradation quite suit His first coming, just as the tokens of His majesty do His second advent, when He shall no longer remain “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence,” but after His rejection become “the chief corner-stone,” accepted and elevated to the top place of the temple, even His church, being that very stone in Daniel, cut out of the mountain, which was to smite and crush the image of the secular kingdom. Of this advent the same prophet says: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days; and they brought Him before Him, and there was given Him dominion and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away; and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Book 4 chapter 39

This will be the great day of the Lord, and of the glorious coming of the Son of man from heaven, of which Daniel wrote: “Behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven" “And there was given unto Him the kingly power, ' which (in the parable) “He went away into a far country to receive for Himself,” leaving money to His servants wherewithal to trade and get increase

Hippolytus, Treatise on Christ and Antichrist

For as two advents of our Lord and Saviour are indicated in the Scriptures, the one being His first advent in the flesh, which took place without honour by reason of His being set at nought, as Isaiah spake of Him aforetime, saying, “We saw Him, and He had no form nor comeliness, but His form was despised (and) rejected (lit. = deficient) above all men; a man smitten and familiar with bearing infirmity, (for His face was turned away); He was despised, and esteemed not.” But His second advent is announced as glorious, when He shall come from heaven with the host of angels, and the glory of His Father, as the prophet saith, “Ye shall see the King in glory;” and, “I saw one like the Son of man coming with the clouds of heaven; and he came to the Ancient of days, and he was brought to Him. And there were given Him dominion, and honour, and glory, and the kingdom; all tribes and languages shall serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away.

Jerome, A Commentary on the Apostles' Creed Section 34


The Prophet Malachi says, “Behold the Lord Almighty shall come, and who shall abide the day of His coming, or who shall abide the sight of Him? For He doth come as the fire of a furnace and as fuller’s soap: and He shall sit, refining and purifying as it were gold and silver. But that thou mayest know more certainly Who this Lord is of Whom these things are said, hear what the Prophet Daniel also foretells: “I saw,” saith he, “in the vision of the night, and, behold, One like the Son of Man coming with the clouds of heaven, and He came nigh to the Ancient of days, and was brought near before Him; and there was given to Him dominion, and honour, and a kingdom. And all peoples, tribes, and languages shall serve Him. And His dominion is an eternal dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be destroyed.” By these words we are taught not only of His coming and judgment, but of His dominion and kingdom, that His dominion is eternal, and His kingdom indestructible, without end; as it is said in the Creed

Basil, Letter to a Fallen Virgin

Picture to me, as it rises in your imagination, the conclusion of all human life, when the Son of God shall come in His glory with His angels, “For he shall come and shall not keep silence; when He shall come to judge the quick and dead, to render to every one according to his work; when that terrible trumpet with its mighty voice shall wake those that have slept through the ages, and they that have done good shall come forth unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation. Remember the vision of Daniel, and how he brings the judgment before us: “I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool;…and His wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth before Him; thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened,” clearly disclosing in the hearing of all, angels and men, things good and evil, things done openly and in secret, deeds, words, and thoughts all at once. What then must those men be who have lived wicked lives? Where then shall that soul hide which in the sight of all these spectators shall suddenly be revealed in its fulness of shame?

Tall73, I'm assuming you are in agreement with all of these church fathers (100 AD- 450 AD), that the court room event of Dan. 7, has to do with the second coming of Christ. However, I believe they are all sincerely wrong for the following reason: According to Dan. 12: 4 and 9, the book of Daniel was sealed up until, "the time of the end." Since it is now 2023, we can correctly state that the early church fathers quoted above were not living in, "the time of the end." Therefore, what God had purposely kept secret until this time was not revealed to them. And this is no discredit to them, as they reasoned best with what was revealed in their day. However, I believe in progressive revelation from God, in that God reveals more of Himself according to our need to know and His timing.

It is my belief that what God has kept secret until the early eighties is His natural laws which He build into His prophecies in the book of Daniel, which also apply to the book of Revelation. When the four laws are know and applied correctly to the prophecies of both books a very broad and comprehensive story of closing events can be know, which God kept hidden from earlier expositors, and making know to those living during this time, since many may experience the coming tribulation.

Please note in all of the above quotes that they refer to Dan. 7, earlier verses, but do not quote any of the verses that deal with the interpretation vss. 23-28. It is in these texts that the timing of the heavenly court event in which Jesus is brought before the Father is revealed.

Please note my earlier post, as more information on the timing is given.

 

[tall73]

Tall73, I'm assuming you are in agreement with all of these church fathers (100 AD- 450 AD), that the court room event of Dan. 7, has to do with the second coming of Christ.

Yes, though I consider the internal evidence of the text, and the parallel statements by Christ, and the New Testament, to be far more important to that conclusion. I just note the patristics also hold this. Patristic statements are considerably down the list for me, but not meaningless. Moreover, it is rare that patristic authors line up on similar conclusions across the board. And in this case that seemed largely to be what I found. This suggests a common understanding across time and region as to the meaning.

However, I believe they are all sincerely wrong for the following reason: According to Dan. 12: 4 and 9, the book of Daniel was sealed up until, "the time of the end." Since it is now 2023, we can correctly state that the early church fathers quoted above were not living in, "the time of the end." Therefore, what God had purposely kept secret until this time was not revealed to them.

Daniel indicates there are aspects he does not understand regarding time frames, events, etc. Daniel is told that he is to go his way, it relates to the time of the end, and he is not going to be given more of the explanation at this point, the book is sealed up to await the end.

However, what is already revealed in the text is what we are all looking at.

And the words of Jesus and the New Testament do in fact touch on elements of the second coming, etc. They may not explain the full timeline of Daniel, and are not intended to. But the notion that Daniel being sealed up means that Jesus, the Son of God, cannot comment on any aspect He wishes regarding end times does not follow.

So the question is whether the text itself, and the statements in the New Testament alluding to it, show this relating to the second coming.

Patristic authors may recognize the above, and understand what the text says, and what Jesus said, without understanding all of the timeline or having the answers to the questions Daniel asked, and was not given to know.

And this is no discredit to them, as they reasoned best with what was revealed in their day. However, I believe in progressive revelation from God, in that God reveals more of Himself according to our need to know and His timing.

And to claim that Jesus or the New Testament cannot reveal more about the aspects God wishes them to does not follow. So what those revealed the patristics then had access to, if they had the NT books in question, which some of the patristics may have only had part of.

It is my belief that what God has kept secret until the early eighties.

Explain how the 80's relate.

is His natural laws which He build into His prophecies in the book of Daniel, which also apply to the book of Revelation. When the four laws are know and applied correctly to the prophecies of both books a very broad and comprehensive story of closing events can be know, which God kept hidden from earlier expositors, and making know to those living during this time, since many may experience the coming tribulation. Please note in all of the above quotes that they refer to Dan. 7, earlier verses, but do not quote any of the verses that deal with the interpretation vss. 23-28. It is in these texts that the timing of the heavenly court event in which Jesus is brought before the Father is revealed.

If you wish to address my view you would have to address the statements I made about chapter 7, including the intepretation, and the statements by Jesus and others in the New Testament that I quoted.

The patristics are not the basis of my claim, but are noted simply as an indication that my claim is not novel, and was in fact held by various ones in different regions, across the early centuries. And in that time period I didn't find other views among the patristics.

 

[tall73]

Bob, To start this post I would like to say, that the term, "With the Clouds of Heaven," which you seem to think can only refer to a heavenly event, whereas Tall73 sees it as only and earthly event, is actually a event that will happen in both places as prophecy indicates.

I think the clouds of heaven could in isolation refer to the ascension, or a pre-advent time of judgment, or to the second coming. But the specifics of the text, and the references in the NT seem to weigh on the side of the second coming.

The term means, Christ was brought into the presence of the Father in the courtroom event in heaven by a large host of angles, and when Jesus returns to earth, He again due to His glory, is ushered before earth by a large host of angles. Is this not possible?

The text says that the little horn was prevailing UNTIL the Ancient of Days came. Moreover, it is tied to the time when the saints possess the kingdom.

Daniel7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

This also matches Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world


The Son of Man, coming in His glory, and all the angels with Him, judging from the throne, and giving to those on His right hand the kingdom, as was referenced in Daniel.

I direct this post mainly to your closing statement. If I understand you correctly, you understand the heavenly Judgement event in Dan. 7, as starting in 1844, and will continue to the coming of Christ, during which time the saints will be persecuted until the judgement is completed, and a ruling in favor of the saints is made.

However, I believe prophecy indicates something very different. I think you are overlooking the most important part of this prophecy in which Daniel is given it's interpretation. How much easier can it get?

Dan. 7:25, ([ ] insertions mine) He [the little horn/11th horn/papacy] shall speak pompous words against the most high, and shall persecute the saints [those living during the time, times, and half a time/ 1260 literal yrs./ 538-1798 time period] of the most high, and shell intend to change times and laws [the seventh day weekly sabbath of the moral law/ ten commandments] Then the saints [those mentioned above] shall be given [by God] into his [papacy's]hand for a time, times, and half a time [1260 years/ 538-1798]

(26) But [however] the court shall be seated, and they [The Father and Jesus] shall take away his [the little horn/ 11 horn/ papacy's dominion].

History confirms the following: which I think you well understand. The, "little horn power that uprooted ten previous kings coming out of the demise of the forth beast, Rome, is the papacy. It ruled over the kings of Europe for 1260 years both in civil and religious affairs, and millions of saints were persecuted for standing on the Bible only as a rule of faith and not the teachings of the Catholic Church. This time is without doubt 538- 1798, at which time the pope was taken captive, and the power of the Little horn/ papacy was broken.

Do you also hold that the beast was slain at that time?

Do you hold the little horn to be parallel to the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians?

The interpretation give by the angle before Daniel informed him that at the appointed time, 1798/ end of the 1260 years, the Father and Jesu's ruling would take place in heaven at a courtroom event, and the papacy's power over those saints who had experienced the previous 1260 yrs., of persecution would come to and end. The prophecy does not predict the papacy to rule over the saints beyond the 1260 years to the coming of Christ as you state.

I know this is hard for you to grasp, however, the angle has interpreted the vision.

Daniel 7:26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Do you see in 1798 that the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven are given to the saints?

Do you see no further role for the papacy following 1798?

 

[Tigger Boy]

I think the clouds of heaven could in isolation could refer to the ascension, or a pre-advent time of judgment, or to the second coming. But the specifics of the text, and the references in the NT seem to weigh on the side of the second coming.





The text says that the little horn was prevailing UNTIL the Ancient of Days came. Moreover, it is tied to the time when the saints possess the kingdom.

Daniel7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

This also matches Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world


The Son of Man, coming in His glory, and all the angels with Him, judging from the throne, and giving to those on His right hand the kingdom, as was referenced in Daniel.




Do you also hold that the beast was slain at that time?

Do you hold the little horn to be parallel to the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians?




Daniel 7:26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Do you see in 1798 that the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven are given to the saints?

Do you see no further role for the papacy following 1798?

Tall73, appreciate you kind response, will respond to your questions, however not today, as I will not be at the house to use my lap top. You may not know that I am of the SDA faith. It would be of help if I knew if you were or not, and that we share some basic teachings, which might make sense to you as I give my response. If not I would have to give more of an explanation.

 

[tall73]

Tall73, appreciate you kind response, will respond to your questions, however not today, as I will not be at the house to use my lap top. You may not know that I am of the SDA faith. It would be of help if I knew if you were or not, and that we share some basic teachings, which might make sense to you as I give my response. If not I would have to give more of an explanation.

Thank you. I am not Seventh-day Adventist. However, I am familiar with the Adventist view of the passage, and was at one time a Seventh-day Adventist.

 

[Tigger Boy]

The text says that the little horn was prevailing UNTIL the Ancient of Days came. Moreover, it is tied to the time when the saints possess the kingdom.

Daniel7:21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

tall73, Your statement above, in my humble opinion does not reflect what Daniel saw in vision for the following reasons: The prophecy and it's interpretation (Dan.7:21-26) revealed in advance that the horn/papacy would wage war against the saints for a time, times and half a time, (1260 literal years, no more and no less) History confirms this as factual and that the 1260 years spanned the time from 538-1798, at which time the papacy was brought down/ lost it's power. According to the texts in the above post, and an earlier post of yours, you understand correctly that the horn was able to make war against the saints and prevail only, "Until," the the Ancient of Days Came, and a judgment was make in favor of the saints. However, you fail to grasp the texts indicates a, "singular," judgement in favor of those saints of whom the horn/ papacy would be waging war against at the close of the 1260 years in 1798.

Let me add a very interesting bit of insight that you may not be aware of. Because the court was seated in heaven and we here on earth cannot see into heaven only by way of visions. God specifically connected the seating of the court event to a fulfillment of an earthly event- the end of the 1260 literal years in 1798, in which the horn power/papacy would lose it's power to wage war against the saints. There are other apocalyptic prophecies too, which are linked to heavenly events as well.

What I understand the prophecy to reveal as you know is not what the SDA teach, and is far different that what you understand. Which is that the court will be seated at Christ second coming and individual judgements are given to all saints, and "it is tied to the time when the saints shall possess the Kingdom."

You most take into consideration the following: This prophecy is no different that all apocalyptic prophecy in that in just a few verses events are given in their chronological order and that some time, centuries of time can separate the events. In vs. 22, " and the time came for the saints to posses the Kingdom," has such a span of time stretching to Christ second coming.

This also matches Matthew 25:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world


This texts is a parable given by Jesus, as are several others in the chapter. I believe most scholars would agree that apocalyptic prophecy holds far more weight than a parable, when it comes to the actual plans of God. Example: vs. 41, do you believe at His second coming after He separates the righteous from the wicked, the following will actual happen? "Then He will say to those on his left, depart from me, you who are cursed, onto the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angles." I believe prophecy teaches that the wicked are cast into the eternal fire after the Great White Throne Judgement of (Rev. 20:7-10) I find it difficult to fit (Rev. 19:11-18) into your understanding of Christ second return as well, for these texts reveal no wicked will be alive to face a judgement. Other prophecies reveal the saints are taken to heaven at His return. My understanding of God's pre-advent judgement is that it began in 1844, and Jesus decides who has lived by faith and who did not. The Judgement of the living begins at the start of the tribulation. (Rev.12:7)The living will pass judgement on themselves, the wicked will receive the mark of the beast, for reasons of survival, which the third angel of (Rev.9, 10) warns against. The saints will suffer great persecution and death, but remain faithful to Jesus. So when Jesus returns the living saints and those who were dead will realize their judgement when they are caught up to meet Christ in the air, and taken to heaven for a thousand years. The living wicked at Christ return will realize their judgement when they see the saints caught up to meet the Lord, and they are not apart of that group. Then they are destroyed by sword/ command from the Lord.

Do you also hold that the beast was slain at that time? No

Do you hold the little horn to be parallel to the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians? No, the man of sin is Satin, and God will permit him to appear on earth during the fifth trumpet, in bodily form along with his angels.




Daniel 7:26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’

Do you see in 1798 that the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven are given to the saints? No, as I stated earlier this event takes place at the second coming.

Do you see no further role for the papacy following 1798? One could hardy say no to your question since the papacy has been on the mend since 1929, under the Lateran Treaty. And according to (Rev. 13:3) the papacy will make up one of the the seven heads on the composite beast/Babylon.

 

[tall73]

tall73, Your statement above, in my humble opinion does not reflect what Daniel saw in vision for the following reasons: The prophecy and it's interpretation (Dan.7:21-26) revealed in advance that the horn/papacy would wage war against the saints for a time, times and half a time, (1260 literal years, no more and no less) History confirms this as factual and that the 1260 years spanned the time from 538-1798, at which time the papacy was brought down/ lost it's power.

I am reading over your view, and may spell out some response. But I am not seeing the answer to the following yet:

Do you hold the little horn to be parallel to the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians?

Do you see no further role for the papacy following 1798?

According to the texts in the above post, and an earlier post of yours, you understand correctly that the horn was able to make war against the saints and prevail only, "Until," the the Ancient of Days Came, and a judgment was make in favor of the saints. However, you fail to grasp the texts indicates a, "singular," judgement in favor of those saints of whom the horn/ papacy would be waging war against at the close of the 1260 years in 1798.

So the judgment pictured, in your view, is in 1798, if I understand correctly. That doesn't rule out judgment on other nations, at other times I would imagine? Do you see the other kingdoms who have their dominion removed which are described in the chapter as judged by the same court, but at a different time?

Let me add a very interesting bit of insight that you may not be aware of. Because the court was seated in heaven and we here on earth cannot see into heaven only by way of visions. God specifically connected the seating of the court event to a fulfillment of an earthly event- the end of the 1260 literal years in 1798, in which the horn power/papacy would lose it's power to wage war against the saints. There are other apocalyptic prophecies too, which are linked to heavenly events as well.

Again, I am clarifying your view before responding broadly.

What do you see the fourth beast, which the horn comes out of, representing? And do you see it as slain then in 1798? Because that seems to correspond with the judgment in the text.

 

[Tigger Boy]

I am reading over your view, and may spell out some response. But I am not seeing the answer to the following yet:

Do you hold the little horn to be parallel to the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians?

Do you see no further role for the papacy following 1798?

I posted my response in my previous post. But I will give you a more detailed response here. I now note the word, "parallel" in the first question, which I did not pick up on in my earlier response. So yes, there is a parallel between the two. As I understand it, in 2 Thess., the texts is speaking of Satin, "The Antichrist", with a capital "A". On the other hand, anybody or organization that promotes teachings contrary to scripture are engaged in actions that are antichrist. This would include the little horn of Dan. 7.

As stated earlier, I understand that one of the seven heads on the composite beast of Rev.13, is the papacy. But to clarify further let me add that all of the heads represent the seven major religions of the world, and the papacy is referenced as the head, that had a fatal wound, but the wound is healed, as this beast comes onto the world scene (out of the sea) in the future, early into the tribulation.

 

[Tigger Boy]

So the judgment pictured, in your view, is in 1798, if I understand correctly. That doesn't rule out judgment on other nations, at other times I would imagine? Do you see the other kingdoms who have their dominion removed which are described in the chapter as judged by the same court, but at a different time?

Consider this, every event within apocalyptic prophecy is "time stamped'" at the time the event reaches a fulfillment. The court room event in Dan.7, and by the way the same event was revealed to John in Rev. 4&5, five hundred years latter. This reveals something of great importance about the court room event, which I have not yet mentioned. If you have any prior understanding of the Adventist teachings, you know that we have a better appreciation and understanding of God's purpose for requiring Israel to set up the earthly sanctuary, which was a model of the heavenly, than other religions.

One of the yearly services was the Day of Atonement, in which the sanctuary was cleansed. On that day the Hight Priest officiated, and his first requirement was to enter the Most Holy compartment in the presence of God and to be found worthy to cleanse the sanctuary. This service was to teach Israel, and mankind that at some point in time, Christ, as our high priest would have to appear before the Father, and be found, "worthy," to cleanse the Heavenly Sanctuary, as the time of sins draws to a close. As you consider both visions of this event by Daniel and John, John adds details that Daniel was not shown, but combining details of both we get a broader picture. No, timing is given in Johns vision, but is revealed in Daniel's. In (Rev.5:9) the four living creatures (Holy Spirit), and the twenty four elders, sing, that Jesus has been found, "worthy". Worthy of what? Worthy to carry out the task as our Hight Priest and to Cleanse the true sanctuary in heaven of the record of sin.

This investigation began in that court room event, in heaven in 1798, at the end of the 1260 years of the papacy's war against the saints. Even, more amazing to understand is that the Father stepped down from His Throne, and gave Jesus sovereign author (all power) over heaven and earth to carry out the judgement of all creation and bring a end to sins drama.

I have posted more detail on this on one of my earlier threads, "At What Point In Time Does Rev. 4&5 Begin?
please consider going there, and go down to my posts, #17 and #31.

Now to the other questions you raise. I understand the Bible to teach that God's sets up nations and takes them down. I understand He works on a full cup principle. Each nation is given a cup of grace as it comes into existence, but over time is that cup is filled with sinful deeds and all the grace is spill out, than God raises up a destroying nation to take it down, and a new cup is given that nation.

I don't believe other nations fate were every a part of the court room event in Dan.7, It's main purpose was to fine someone worthy to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary, and only Jesus was found worthy.