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true.Liturgist, first, I consider at this point my conversation with Bob is not an argument as you claim. We are exchanging our understanding of prophecy, not being disrespectful of the other.
True.This argument seems to me entirely incompatible with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity which @BobRyan and I share a belief in. Since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man, coeternal with the Father and the Holy Spirit, begotten, not made, and begotten of the Father before all worlds,
True.Furthermore, since Jesus Christ is fully God and fully Man, having become incarnate without change, confusion, division or separation,
I see how certain parts of that post could leave such an impression. But I can assure you he views Christ as fully God - in every sense, from all eternity past, all knowing, all powerful, self existent, uncreated.But as it stands the argument you present appears to deny the doctrine of the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity
I suspect you will agree with me that none of that is found in Dan 7. It cannot be had from Dan 7:13-14. One would need a lot more detail than we see in vs 13 and 14 to get to the point you are discussing.Bob, In post #96, I shared insight on the exaltation of Christ in 1798, and why at that time He was given sovereign power. In this post I will share what prophecy reveals Christ was orchestrating between 1798 and 1844, to prepare mankind to comprehend that in 1844 He would begin cleansing the heavenly sanctuary. Note too, that historical events confirm their fulfillment.
Too, in post #90, I mentioned that (Rev. 4&5) are actually describing the same court room event as (Dan. 7:9,10) with expanded details. Christ was found worthy to received the book of Life, having the seven seals. Chapter six describes Christ opening these seals, after He received the book in 1798. Christ needed sovereign power to guide His church after the “Dark Ages” into greater truths and the seven seals explain this process.
The seven seals represent a seven step process that will, at the end of the 1,000 years, reveal everything about the love and full identity of Jesus Christ. The Father has ordained that everyone in the universe should know that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, just like Himself. Jesus is made of the same eternal substance as the Father and He has the same powers and prerogatives as the Father. Jesus is a separate, distinct, co-eternal member of the Godhead. Yet, Jesus was willing to lay aside His powers and prerogatives and surrender Himself to the will of the Father in order to save mankind.
The seven seals can be compared to seven political campaigns in the sense that the purpose of a political campaign is the exposure of a candidate with his or her ideas on “the way government should run.” The purpose of the seven seals is a seven- step exposure of Jesus as the savior of sinners, Almighty God, Prince of Peace, King of kings, and Lord of lords.
The seven seals reveal Jesus:
Seal 1: The salvation of Jesus
Seal 2: The teachings of Jesus
Seal 3: The judgment of Jesus
Seal 4: The sovereign authority of Jesus
Seal 5: The faith of Jesus
Seal 6: The glory of Jesus
Seal 7: The deity of Jesus
I will address the first three seals in this post. However, keep in mind that Jesus is sitting on the Fathers throne in heaven while directing the Holy Spirit, who is invisible, and can be in all places at the same time, to accomplish the work Jesus directs Him to do.
First seal: The Salvation of Jesus.
(Rev.6:1,2) The four horsemen in Revelation 5 represent four campaigns which the four living creatures (the Holy Spirit) conduct. Each mission is associated with one of the four faces that John saw. Each campaign builds upon the accomplishments of the previous campaign and when the final campaign is completed, the whole world will not only know about Jesus, but it will also know who Jesus really is.
After the power of the papacy was wounded in 1798, and the “Dark Ages” ended, the Holy Spirit put a compelling desire within Protestants to broadcast salvation through faith in Christ around the world. When it comes to revealing all that Jesus Christ is, the doctrine of salvation through faith in Christ (justification and sanctification) is the first and greatest teaching of Christ. The bow carried in the rider’s hand is not a weapon of war as artists commonly portray it. The Greek word toxon indicates the bow is made of fabric which indicates the bow carried in the rider’s hand is a winner’s ribbon. This bow indicates the victory that is given to everyone who abides in Christ. (See Appendix B.) In fact, victory over the carnal nature is only possible through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. The gospel of Jesus always produces division and conflict when it is proclaimed with clarity and power. Lucifer and his demons will be sure of that!
The first living creature (the one having a face like a lion) went throughout the Earth searching for souls. The Holy Spirit caused a great awakening in the United States and Europe and many people rejoiced to learn that salvation comes through faith in Christ alone. After breaking the first seal, the work of the Holy Spirit took off and the gospel of Jesus began to grow. This work will continue until the seventh trumpet occurs.
Seal Two: The Teachings of Jesus
(Rev. 6:3) The Lamb spoke to the second living creature, the one who had the face like an ox. (Oxen are known for their great strength.) The Holy Spirit spoke in a loud voice, “Come and see the assignment the Lamb has given me!”
{4} With this, the Holy Spirit transformed Himself into a rider on a red horse. He left Heaven’s throne room on a mission to empower and expand the spiritual revival that had just begun on Earth. The Holy Spirit carried with Him a great sword which represents the Word of God. This campaign centered on the translation, printing and distribution of God’s great sword, the Bible.
In the early 1800s, the Holy Spirit began prompting Protestants to establish Bible societies in Europe and the United States. The result has been impressive: The British and Foreign Bible Society (1804), the Basel Bible Society (1804), the Berlin (later Prussian) Bible Society (1805), the Pennsylvania Bible Society (1808), the Connecticut Bible Society (1809), the Massachusetts Bible Society (1809), the International Bible Society (1809), the Bible Society of India (1811), the Russian Bible Society (1812), the Swedish Bible Society (1814), the Netherlands Bible Society (1814), the Icelandic Bible Society (1815), the Norwegian Bible Society (1816), the American Bible Society (1816), the Bible Society in Australia (1817), and the Protestant Biblical Society of Paris (1818). When viewed as a whole, the task has been laborious and expensive and many people have given sacrificially to this cause. The Bible (or portions of it) now exists in more than 2,572 languages and dialects. Since 1908, Gideons International has distributed about 1.7 billion Bibles. Since 1942, Wycliff Bible translators have helped to complete more than 700 translations. This enormous project, spanning the globe, could not have been possible if it were not through the persistent ministry of the Holy Spirit. No book has outsold the Bible and no other book comes close in terms of exposure and distribution.
Note: The sword of truth always brings conflict. When Jesus lived on Earth, He made people angry by speaking the truth. Jesus said the problem is that men love darkness and they are afraid of the light of truth. The Jews killed Jesus because they did not want the light of truth to expose their evil ways. Evil people will do whatever it takes to keep the truth from being known. During the Great Tribulation, a time will come when speaking Bible truth will be very inflammatory. Evil men will persecute and kill those who love God’s Word thinking they can eliminate the light of truth that shines from God’s Word, but God’s truth cannot be stopped. God will endure forever and so will His truth. The campaign of the second seal will end when Lucifer sets up his theocracy (sixth trumpet).
Seal Three – The Judgment of Jesus
{Rev. 6:5} The third living creature said to the assembled host, “Come and see the assignment the Lamb has given me!” I watched as the Holy Spirit transformed Himself into a rider on a black horse! He left Heaven with a pair of balancing scales in His hand. The Holy Spirit carried a solemn message to the people on Earth that Jesus had begun to cleanse Heaven’s temple.
Because the third seal indicates judgment and the third seal follows the formation of Bible societies in the second seal, the third seal had to have been broken after the formation of the Bible societies. I believe the third seal was broken in 1844. This seal perfectly aligns with the scene in Daniel 7:9,10 where the court was seated and “the books were opened.” The third seal aligns with the cleansing of Heaven’s temple mentioned in Daniel 8:14. Consider this: We know from the earthly temple services that the cleansing of the temple was a judicial process. The earthly temple became de filed by the record of sin and this necessitated an annual cleaning on the Day of Atonement. Similarly, Heaven’s temple has been defiled by the record of our sins and the assignment of guilt is determined during judgment. When all of the guilt is removed from Heaven’s temple and placed on the heads of sinners or the scapegoat, this will leave Heaven’s temple cleansed. Furthermore, Revelation 5:5 aligns with the exaltation of Jesus in Daniel 7:13,14. Jesus received the book sealed with seven seals and was given sovereign power in 1798 to conclude the sin problem and to exonerate the Father’s government. As each seal is broken, the events associated with it provide us a brighter revelation of all that Jesus is.
The pre-advent judgment illuminates the ministry of Jesus as the Judge of mankind. After Jesus broke open the third seal in 1844, He opened the Books of Record in Heaven and began to investigate the lives and deeds of men and women who have died throughout Earth’s history. The Holy Spirit led people into this timely understanding of truth around 1844. Unfortunately, the nature and importance of 1844 remains largely misunderstood by most Christians today. This darkness will evaporate when the next seal is broken because the judgment of the living begins with the fourth seal.
Now that we have investigated the first three campaigns, notice that the first three seals are additive in nature. This means that the activity generated by each campaign builds on the accomplishments of the preceding seal. The first three seals were carefully designed to prepare the world for the horrific events that will occur when the fourth seal is broken.
Bob, my thoughts on your five points above. Agree on points 1,2, on point 3 no. Because the opening judgement made in this court seated in 1798, had to do with the 1260 year war between the papacy and those saints. That judgement was in favor of those saints only, and the papacy's persecution over them ended. And books of record of these previous atrocities were used. This is a historical fact, prophecy fulfilled!!! It is only as this pre-advent continues from 1798 down to 1844, when the books of record for individuals are opened and the judgement of the dead begins and continues until Christ return.Another way to say the above -- the purpose of the thread is to show from Dan 7 that:
1. there is a judgment in heaven
2. it concludes before the advent of Christ
3. It involves the cases of the saints just as is the case in Rom 2 and 2 Cor 5:10
4. it is based out of the books - things written in books (as also the NT affirms)
5. The saints are being persecuted the entire time that the judgment goes until..
The purpose of the thread is not to show the start day of that judgment or the start date of the 490 years of Dan 9 or the start date of the 2300 years - though I provide an example of such dates in the following posts ...whether or not you accept those dates does not change the 5 points listed here. All you need to do is admit that the method that is employed for those dates "is an example" of such a method -- that exists for about 23 million Christians today. Not exactly rocket science to agree that such a method exists so the point of the thread is given in the lists enumerated above - that is the main point of the thread.
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I am trying to limit the scope of this thread - because getting the basic start point correct - is key
No doubt many other threads could be star
I suspect you will agree with me that none of that is found in Dan 7. It cannot be had from Dan 7:13-14. One would need a lot more detail than we see in vs 13 and 14 to get to the point you are discussing.
If we go back to the title and the text of Dan 7 we can see what he OP proposes.
Bob, I’m sure most reading this post would agree with you that my insights on the first three seals has nothing to do with (Dan. 7:13:14). But as I mention earlier, many, me included, understand that (Rev. 4&5) expands on Daniel’s vision with additional details.
I agree that you are getting more details and they are on related topics. But it is beyond the scope for this thread because if you will notice thare is a lot of pushback out there just on the 4 or five points I list in the OP related to the Dan 7 IJ.Which is why I have added the additional information given there to our discussion on (Dan. 7:13:14)
True. But they stopped following the conversation long before that. A lot of people are still stuck on fully accepting the basics listed in the OP.I think it is important because within (Dan. 7:13,14) we are informed that Christ received “sovereign power”. If I were to ask you and other christians why It was necessary for Christ to receive, sovereign power in 1798, most would not be able to give an answer
Why do you say that Dan 7 (or Dan 8) or ?? has the court seated, books opened and judgment started in 1798.Bob, my thoughts on your five points above. Agree on points 1,2, on point 3 no. Because the opening judgement made in this court seated in 1798, had to do with the 1260 year war between the papacy and those saints.
We differ. In Dan 7 all of the earth's kingdoms end when that judgment concludes - that is what we see in Dan 7 at the end and that is what Dan 2 points out as well.That judgement was in favor of those saints only, and the papacy's persecution over them ended.
And books of record of these previous atrocities were used. This is a historical fact, prophecy fulfilled!!! It is only as this pre-advent continues from 1798 down to 1844, when the books of record for individuals are opened and the judgement of the dead begins and continues until Christ return.
I agree it is important but no start date is given in Dan 7 and no start date is given in Dan 8.These two statements of yours seem contradictive: "The purpose of the thread is not to show the start day of that judgment .".. [I think it very important or else God would not have informed us of that date]
"I am trying to limit the scope of this thread - because getting the basic start point correct - is key".
[that I agree].
yes. All apocalyptic time lines in Dan and Rev are using the same day-for-year historicist model as we see in Dan 9.I think I understand your point of that entire paragraph, which you don't explicitly say, but I understand you to mean that all time should be interpreted as day/yr. Is this correct?
True, Dan. 7 doesn't say the court was seated in 1798. What it does say in vss.21,22 is Daniel saw the papacy waging war against the saints and prevailing, "until" (meaning right up to) when the Father came and set up court as mentioned in vss. 9,&10. and took away the papacy's power. Vss. 25,26, states, the saints shall be given into the papacy's hand for 1260 years, but the court shall be seated and take away his power. To confirm a fulfillment of this prophecy it must be proven by historical fact. Historical facts prove that the papacy had sovereign power over Europe from 538-1798 "until" the pope was dethroned in 1798. During that time millions of Christians were martyred. So even through prophecy doesn't say, "the court was seated in 1798," historical dating of the end of the 1260 years is, "1798" and also the seating of this court room event.Why do you say that Dan 7 (or Dan 8) or ?? has the court seated, books opened and judgment started in 1798.
1798 is associated with a focused time of persecution but it says nothing about the start of the judgment.
I think you understand this prophecy to span to short of a time span. Consider the following:In the end of Dan 7 it is the conclusion of the judgment that ends all persecution of the saints and the full turnover of the kingdom to Christ.
That judgement is given at the end of the 1260 previous years, involving those saints and the papacy. Yes, when the pre-advent judgement is completed at the end and all kingdoms destroyed, then the saints of all time will receive Gods kingdom. Again I think you fail to understand this prophecy begins with Babylon and end with Christ return.The text does not say what the judgment is about other than it is passed in favor of the saints and when it concludes all the bad stuff on Earth enbs.
well it says the 11th horn wages war against the saints for 1260 years. But it also says that persecution of the saints goes on all during the judgment of vs 9-10. Which is key to the entire chapter. The fact that instead of judgment happening after Christ takes over (at the very end of the chapter) - the judgment starts sometime after the 11th horn arises, after the 1260 year event completes, and after... whatever else, but during the entire time of that judgment - the saints are still being persecuted. -True, Dan. 7 doesn't say the court was seated in 1798. What it does say in vss.21,22 is Daniel saw the papacy waging war against the saints
The until - includes "and judgment was passed in favor of the saints".and prevailing, "until" (meaning right up to) when the Father came and set up court as mentioned in vss. 9,&10. and took away the papacy's power.
Indeed -- intense persecution for that time - and all of that 1260 year event happens before the judgment starts. But at some point after that (years later as you point out) the judgment starts - all the while the saints continue being persecuted.Vss. 25,26, states, the saints shall be given into the papacy's hand for 1260 years
But then a new pope was then elected -the papacy had sovereign power over Europe from 538-1798 "until" the pope was dethroned in 1798.
And more Christians martyred in the 1900's than in all the centuries before that.During that time millions of Christians were martyred.
agreed 1798 is the end of the 1260 years.So even through prophecy doesn't say, "the court was seated in 1798," historical dating of the end of the 1260 years is, "1798"
Even I don't know how one gets the court "seated but not yet judging" in 1798.as 1798 is proven to be the seating of the court room event.
It is not clear to me that such a thing is the case.the fall of the papacy on Earth (1798) is synchronized with the exaltation of Jesus in Heaven.
It is not clear to me that the text says "after Jesus received sovereign power after the 1260 years but before He will open the books"After Jesus receives sovereign power, He will open the books of record (1844) and judge the dead.
agreedThis vision covers the same time span as the vision in Dan. 2. This vision amplifies Daniel 2 using a technique called “repetition and enlargement.”
Agreed for Dan 2, 7, 8When this prophecy is properly aligned with Daniel 2, Daniel 8, and Luke 3, it is easy to demonstrate from Scripture that the four beasts in this vision represent the chronological empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Grecia, and Rome.
agreedSecular history also afirms the chronological progression of these empires.
I don't see where the text says that judgment is finished, is given is ... at the end of the 1260 -- since at the end the saints are still being persecuted. Even the papacy still exists after 1798, in 1799That judgement is given at the end of the 1260 previous years
This argument seems to me entirely incompatible with the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity which @BobRyan and I share a belief in.
It is my belief and that of many others that all three Gods which make up the trinity coexisted from the beginning, all possessing the same powers which only deity have. I'm quite sure Bob Ryan is in agreement with that since we are both Adventist.
I see how certain parts of that post could leave such an impression. But I can assure you he views Christ as fully God - in every sense, from all eternity past, all knowing, all powerful, self existent, uncreated.
A separate thread should be created on that subject.Bob, he said he sees Jesus as one of "three Gods" that make up the Trinity.
He appears to take the tritheistic version of the "heavenly trio".
He is relating it to his understanding of Daniel 7.A separate thread should be created on that subject.
Bob, reading through you entire post I think your statement above express your overall objection to the court room event starting in 1798, because you understand, and rightfully so, the saints are still being persecute yet today.well it says the 11th horn wages war against the saints for 1260 years. But it also says that persecution of the saints goes on all during the judgment of vs 9-10. Which is key to the entire chapter. The fact that instead of judgment happening after Christ takes over (at the very end of the chapter) - the judgment starts sometime after the 11th horn arises, after the 1260 year event completes, and after... whatever else, but during the entire time of that judgment - the saints are still being persecuted. -
Actually you comment brings up a good point in that if you look at the first two posts of this thread - I am deliberately not focused on dates at all for the purpose of this thread. I am just pointing to the details that identify the pre-advent investigative judgment -- "out of books" as in vs 9-10 where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".Bob, reading through you entire post I think your statement above express your overall objection to the court room event starting in 1798,
True that they are being persecuted but that does not indicate that the Dan 7:9-10 judgment has not started yet - it only shows that it cannot be ended if indeed it has started already.because you understand, and rightfully so, the saints are still being persecute yet today.
We agree to that - but my purpose here it to show that the saints are persecuted until judgement completes in heaven no matter how late it starts. The start date for the papacy only pushes the start date of the judgment passed 538, and passed the 1260 year end point.However, I think holding to your interpretation you are overlooking the bigger spiritual significance. On page 838, of our bible commentary on Daniel, it is stated, “ …by 538 the papacy was completely formed and functioning in all aspects
My post shows that even after 1799 it was still the "state religion" for France. It did cease to exist but it could not punish civil rulers while France was repressing the Popes . In any case the focus of the thread is not on the papacy -- which still exists and is growing in popularity year by year., and by 1798, 1260 years later, it had lost practically all the power it had accumulated [civil & religious] over a period of centuries.
Which we cannot use on this thread - because in this context readers have no reason to accept "our commentary"This understanding is further express on page, 817, of our commentary on Rev
I have not heard him say he believes in "three gods"Bob, he (another poster here) said he sees Jesus as one of "three Gods" that make up the Trinity.
Agreed - that is another topic altogether.A separate thread should be created on that subject.
I have not heard him say he believes in "three gods"
As for me - my statement has always been --
Deut 6:4 - One God
Matt 28:19 - in Three persons.
If you have any place where someone claimed there are "three Gods" feel free to link to it or quote it.
It is my belief and that of many others that all three Gods which make up the trinity coexisted from the beginning
He related it to his understanding of Daniel 7.But it would be another topic for another thread.
Tall73, to understand the trinity I just posted a new thread titled, "The Trinity" check it out.Did you read his post, or what I quoted?
I already did. But here you go again:
He related it to his understanding of Daniel 7.
Yes, I see that. If folks want to discuss they can do so there.Tall73, to understand the trinity I just posted a new thread titled, "The Trinity" check it out.
click on the search icon in the upper blue bar, and enter "The Trinity"
The part I have disagreed with is that the OT sanctuary service did not have any sort of investigation built in. Yes here was a cleansing and the sins were transferred to the scapegoat. But there was no investigation. After the 2300 days, the sanctuary was to be "cleansed." How does that get translated into "investigation"?Just a note for clarification
What Adventists Believe About Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary | adventist.org
Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us here on earth. Learn more about what He is doing now so that when He comes back, we can be sure His judgments are made in love.www.adventist.org
Belief #24 states our position on the judgment -
"In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)
One may read the texts in this thread or in that statement of belief and say "I agree they make the very points as stated" or " I don't agree with that doctrine" -- but one cannot say "you are making your case from some other source instead of the Bible".
3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!
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