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Daniel 12-time of the end

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Justme

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Hi Forum,

There is a lot of talk lately about getting prophecies right.

Let's go thru one.

Daniel 12

The Time of the End

1"Now at that time (A)Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise And there will be a (B)time of distress (C)such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the (D)book, will be rescued.

I have taken this bible quote from the NASB on BibleGateway. This shows the cross references used in NASB.

(A) Michael, the prince. Some may feel the identity of Michael has some significance to this prophecy, if so please outline your thoughts.

The NASB refers to these verses for (B) "time of distress."

Rev 7:14

14I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The time of distress is the same time as the great tribulation and here we see those who "came out" of the great tribulation. Just a note that John was in Heaven when he saw those who "came out" of the great tribulation.

Rev 16
18And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.

Verse 18 seems useful in comparing other other verses timeframes.

(C) references from the NASB are:

Jeremiah 30:7





7'Alas! for that day is great,
There is none like it;
And it is the time of Jacob's distress,
But he will be saved from it.


Ezekiel 5:9






9'And because of all your abominations, I will do among you what I have not done, and the like of which I will never do again.



Daniel 9:12




12"Thus He has confirmed His words which He had spoken against us and against our rulers who ruled us, to bring on us great calamity; for under the whole heaven there has not been done anything like what was done to Jerusalem.


Matthew 24:21
21"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.


Mark 13


19"For those days will be a time of tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never will.


It appears that Daniel 12:1 is talking about the great tribulation time when Daniel's people who are written in the book will be rescued.


The word rescued is taken from the Hebrew word 'malat' which Strong shows as


1) to slip away, escape, deliver, save, be delivered

a) (Niphal)

1) to slip away
2)
to escape
3)
to be delivered

b) (Piel)

1) to lay, let slip out (of eggs)
2)
to let escape
3)
to deliver, save (life)

c) (Hiphil)
1)
to give birth to
2)
to deliver


d) (Hithpael)
1) to slip forth, slip out, escape
2)
to escape

References (D) book are:

Daniel 7:10, 10:21.

Daniel 7:10





10"A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And (D)the books were opened.


One interesting reference within this verse is the (D) there which shows Rev 14:11-15 which of course, is the Great White Throne Judgment.


SO what is the correct way to interpret the first verse of Daniel 12?


Justme
 

Justme

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Hi Forum,

Verse 2
2"(E)Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, (F)these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

Footnotes for (E)
Ezekiel 37:12-14




12"Therefore prophesy and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. 13"Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. 14"I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD.'"
Isaiah 26:19




19Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.

Footnotes for (F)

Matthew 25
46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

John 5
28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,

These verses compare the Daniel 12 prophecy here to the sheep and goats story of Matthew 25 and the verses of John 5.

It is interesting to note that in John 5:28 the NASB people reference the "all who are in the tombs" to :

John 11

24Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

1 Cor 15
52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

Justme
 
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Justme

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Hi Forum,

S'mor verses from Daniel 12

3"Those who have (G)insight will (H)shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who (I)lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4"But as for you, Daniel, (J)conceal these words and (K)seal up the book until the (L)end of time; (M)many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."


The big thing here is the "end of time' statement here in verse 4!
Is there any doubt that this resurrection Daniel speaks of is at the time of the great tribulation? Is there anyone who doesn't agree that the great tribulation is followed immediately by the celestial display which includes the coming of the son of man on the clouds?


Yet the NASB clearly says seal the book till the end of time. After the END of time there can be no time left. So does time end at the coming of the son of man? Does the earth and everything on it burn at the end of time as described in Daniel 12:4? If that is the end of time that has to mean that 2 Peter 3:10 comes into play then as well!


Well, that would wreck this 1000 year millenium reign thing! It would also mean Daniel himself would raise at that time and do what? Daniel 12:13?

Whatever is this end of time about in the NASB?

Justme
 
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Blissman

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In revelation 20:13, it says (NIV)
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


Does this mean that if had not accepted Christ, there is a chance that you may be saved by acts? This would seem to invalidate that you can be saved by grace alone.
 
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Justme

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Hi Blissman,

Does this mean that if had not accepted Christ, there is a chance that you may be saved by acts?

Within Christianity, I assume that accepting Christ is a big part of it.

However, you bring up a great point. Those spoken of in Daniel 12 who slept in the dust had never heard of Jesus Christ. Yet some would be/will be raised to live. That couldn't be being saved because of believing in Christ because they didn't know HIm. They must be judged on what they had done. Well, that is what the verse says that you referenced isn't it?

This would seem to invalidate that you can be saved by grace alone.

Not when you consider the exact meaning of scripture and who is being discussed. Daniel was told he would raise to eternal life, Daniel 12:13, yet he never knew who Jesus was. Daniel was/is/will be judged by what he had done??????

Very good point!

Justme
 
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Justme

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Hi Forum,

We come to the end of that prophecy. Daniel was telling us about a resurrection that would take place at the time of the great tribulation at the time of the end.................or end of time as the NASB stated it once. Nobody said much about that. The NASB says end of time but the other translations such as NIV and KJV don't. Even references within the NASB would not confirm that the great tribulation is the end of time.

Anyway, strange because I thought a number here would argue that it should be at the end of time!!!!!!!!! Oh, well.

5Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river.

6And (N)one said to the man (O)dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, "(P)How long will it be until the end of these wonders?"

So here do we really go back to Aaron putting on this linen or is this a vision of John the Baptist and Jesus as He was baptised that day? Holy dress is linen and who else can float above the water?

Justme
 
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Blissman

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Revelations is confusing, isn't it?

As to time having an end, in Rev 22:5

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. (NIV)

For ever and ever?

As to the end of time; perhaps it depends on your frame of reference. Our reality with respect to time are based on seconds, min. hours, days, mos, year, and our lifetime's. Not so God. Also, we base time as corporeal beings. We do not need bodies to live forever (or so I assume).


Seperate question: Will I be married to my wife in heaven?
 
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Justme

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Hi Forum,

7 The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. [b] When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed."

Three and a half years? Was that about the length of Jesus' ministry on earth. Was the power of the Holy people, the law, broken at the cross. Was this the punishment of the Jews in the rebellion of Judea and Jerusalem. That was about three and a half years as well.

All we know for sure is that is before the time of the end/at the time of the end.
8 I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?" 9 He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. 10 Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand.

One hint is that many will be made spotless and refined....from the cross perhaps. The wicked continued to be wicked after the cross, but the wicked continued to be wicked after the punishment of the rebellion too. BUT can it be a final end of time? Well, how do the wicked continue to be wicked?

The time of the end causes many to be purified but the wicked continue to be wicked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ummmmmm! What is the time of the end?

Justme
 
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Blissman

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The end of time becomes complex. Even in Revelations it becomes complex.

Rev 21:1
The New Jerusalem

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Why a new heaven only God knows. End of what time?

What becomes of the souls in the 'old heaven'?

Rev 21:8
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place
will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Rev 22:5
5There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

Rev 22:12

12"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done"
 
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Blissman

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Please note Rev 21:8

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

BTW, how many 'deaths' are there? Please cite them.
 
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Justme

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Hi Bliss,
BTW, how many 'deaths' are there? Please cite them.

For believers, there isn't any.

The believer is as it says here:

John 11

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Is that what you were after?

Justme
 
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Barraco

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in the book of hebrews, paul proves to us that the patriarchs and the past saints were saved by faith in God's word and testimony of the coming Messiah that would save Israel. Now according works, even Christians who didn't partake in the first resurrection could be judged, no?
 
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Justme

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Hi Barraco,


Back in verse 1-3 of Daniel 12 it tells us that those people would be judged. Some to righteous 'life' and some would be raised to contempt.

This is concerning the resurrection of the DEAD. Those who died prior to the end time as it tells Daniel here:

13 "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

Meaning, enjoy your physical life until you physically die, then you will rest or sleep in the dust until you are raised to eternal life.

Or does verse 13 have some other meaning to consider?

After the time of Christ's parousia no one has to sleep anymore.
1 Cor 15
51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,...................

Revelation says the same

Rev 14
13Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on."

So the bottom line is that I definately see believer's being judged in the second or great white throne judgment which you quoted from Revelation 20.

The first resurrection can not include any unbelievers, but the second will have righteous and wicked.

My reasons for saying that are from the actual verse you quoted for one.

The sea gives up the dead and they are judged...........do you consider for one second that only the wicked will ever die at sea?

Justme
 
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Blissman

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Justme said:
Hi Blissman,

OR is the existing heaven and earth made new or redeemed as in Romans 8:18-21.

Justme


Why would anyone in heaven need be RE-redeemed?
Why would the old heaven need be made new? After all, God made the heaven (and earth, the point here is the original heaven). God is perfect. Why would He need to re-make heaven? This might assume that God whom had made heaven, had made it imperfect, thus His need to re-make it. God being perfect, and also His heaven, this is not possible, unless God is imperfect. Unless God is imperfect, your idea would not work.
 
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Justme

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Hi Bliss,

Well, a couple of things........First heaven could just mean sky here or maybe the origonal plan was foiled by the sin of Adam and heaven and earth have to be redeemed. Maybe the origonal plan for mankind in Heaven was lost because of Adam.

After the parousia everything is back working as God origonally intended. It is redeemed?????

God being perfect, and also His heaven, this is not possible, unless God is imperfect. Unless God is imperfect, your idea would not work.

This is a well developed thought and powerful argument. However, we are still left with some verses that don't seem to jive.

The body is redeemed in Romans 8, the body returns to dust in Eccesiastes 9 which sounds good, but doesn't work with 1 Cor 15:51, 1 Thess 4:15 and Rev 14:13.

Justme
 
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