Christsfreeservant

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Romans 16:17-20 ESV

“I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive. For your obedience is known to all, so that I rejoice over you, but I want you to be wise as to what is good and innocent as to what is evil. The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.”

Returning to the Old Covenant

There are multiple dangerous doctrines disguised as the Christian faith and practice out there, so I will not cover them all. But there are two which are strongly pulling the church in the wrong direction, and which are leading them astray from the Lord and from his will and purpose for our lives.

The first one I am going to cover has to do with the Old Covenant, which is being taught to Christians and is being forced upon them that if they do not follow certain aspects of it that they are in danger of God’s wrath coming against them. Paul addressed this subject much, especially in Galatians 3-4.

So, what they are doing is the same as the Judaizers of Paul’s day were doing, and that is that they were trying to convince Christians that they had to follow certain Old Covenant practices, such as circumcision, and such as following some liturgical and ceremonial laws and customs.

And now Christians are being pressured into not only supporting the physical nation of Israel, but in putting them in a position as though they are a god to be worshipped. For they are teaching that the Jewish nation is still God’s covenant people and all that God said about his people still applies today.

So, what they are saying is that we must pray for them for their peace, and we must pray against their enemies, and we must give them our loyalty, and we must not oppose them in any way, or we are in danger of God’s wrath. Some Christians are even making death threats against fellow Christians.

So, what they are trying to do is to bring Christians back under the Old Covenant law and system which Jesus freed us from by his death on a cross, when he destroyed the barrier between Jew and Gentile, and he made us both one in Christ by faith in Jesus Christ.

What the Scriptures Teach

The Scriptures teach us that God made a promise to Abraham and to his seed, and that seed is Jesus Christ. So, any promises made to Abraham and to his seed apply to Christians, not to anyone who doesn’t believe in Jesus Christ. We are God’s covenant people now. We are heirs of the promise.

Also, not all who are physical descendants of Abraham belong to Israel. And they aren’t all children of Abraham just because they are his physical offspring. It is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Therefore, if we belong to Christ Jesus, by faith in him, then we are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. For, Jesus’ purpose was to create in himself ONE new humanity out of the two (Jew and Gentile), and through Jesus we both have access to the Father by ONE Spirit.

The Scriptures teach that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, who denies him, is the antichrist. And this includes unbelieving Jews. It also teaches that they are of Hagar, the slave woman, and they are not of Sarah, the free woman, for they are still in slavery with their children.

But Christians, not those in name only, but those who have died with Christ to sin and who are living to Christ and to his righteousness, are of the free woman, who is being symbolized by the Jerusalem which is from above. Thus, Jews who do not believe in Jesus will not share in the inheritance.

Only those who are united with Christ, through genuine God-persuaded faith in Jesus Christ, are heirs of the promise God made to Abraham and to his seed. Only we are the children of God. Only we are God’s chosen people. Because it is only through Jesus Christ that we are heirs of the promise.

[Rom. 9:6-8; Gal. 3:10, 16, 26-29; Gal. 4:22-31; Eph. 2:14-18; 1 Jn. 2:22]

The Dangers are Real

Paul went to great lengths to show the Christians the dangers of putting the unbelieving Jews in a position as a god to be worshipped or as though what they were teaching was from God and thus the Christians had to adhere to what they taught. He said emphatically “No!”

And then he said, “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” Well, you know what? If you teach the truth of what the Scriptures teach regarding who is true biblical Israel today, and if you oppose what the majority appears to be teaching, which is not what the Scriptures teach, you will be treated as an enemy, and you may even receive death threats.

So, what’s going on here? The physical nation of Israel, according to God, is of Hagar and is no different from her Arab neighbors with regard to the promise God made to Abraham. We must all come to God by faith in Jesus Christ or we are not children of God or heirs of the promise.

So, here is a physical nation who, as a nation, has denied Jesus as their Messiah. Thus, they do not worship the same God as we do, because the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is Father, Son (Jesus Christ) and Holy Spirit. So, they are not God’s chosen people. We are.

But they are persuading Christians by the masses to bow to them, and to adhere to their teachings, to give their undivided loyalties to them, to oppose all who oppose them, and to give them their worship as though how we treat them will impact our relationship with Almighty God.

But the Bible says that those who deny Jesus Christ are the antichrist. For, they are opposed to Jesus Christ and his gospel. They are not on God’s side. So, by giving the physical nation of Israel such loyalty and devotion, and by opposing all who oppose them, we are, in fact, opposing God and his true people who are believers in Jesus Christ.

So, think about the power the physical nation of Israel is now wielding. Think with me regarding the deception they are preying upon the naïve and those who are easily persuaded by emotional pressure. This does not come from God! And then look at the Scriptures which describe the antichrist.

The real danger here is that professing Christians by the thousands or by the hundreds of thousands are being led to bow to the antichrist and to worship him and to give him their undying loyalty to the point to where they are willing to hang another Christian and burn him/her at the stake.

This should not be!! This is of Satan! This is not of God! This is not what the Scriptures teach us under the New Covenant. Don’t be led astray. Don’t turn against your own brothers and sisters in Christ in order to give your loyalty and devotion to the enemy. This is exactly what Satan wants!

Please read these New Testament Scriptures. What did Paul tell the Christians? He told them that the unbelieving Jews are their persecutors, not their friends, and that they are to cast them out in the sense of not letting them have any sway over their lives, because the unbelieving Jew (or non-Jew) has no inheritance with Isaac and with us who are in Christ.

**
The following is a secular song, but these words express God’s words to us, that we would let him be our freedom, that we would let him shelter us and be our light, and that we would find our hope, and our peace and safety in him and not in the things of this dark world. All he asks of us is that we love him, which means we submit to him as Lord, and we obey his commands.

All I Ask of You

by Andrew Lloyd Webber

No more talk of darkness,
Forget these wide-eyed fears;
I'm here, nothing can harm you,
My words will warm and calm you.
Let me be your freedom,
Let daylight dry your tears;
I'm here, with you, beside you,
To guard you and to guide you.
Let me be your shelter,
Let me be your light…

Love me, that's all I ask of you

Caution: This link may contain ads

See also: Threats from Another Jesus

And: Who, then, is Israel?
 

Christsfreeservant

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“Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as one would in referring to many, but rather as in referring to one, ‘And to your seed,’ that is, Christ. Galatians 3:16 NASB

“They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

“But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but ‘Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.’ This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.” Romans 9:4-8 ESV

“So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Gal. 3:26-29

“For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a divine promise. These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother…

“Now you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born according to the flesh persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. IT IS THE SAME NOW. But what does Scripture say? ‘Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.’ Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.” Gal. 4:22-31

“His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility... For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.” Eph. 2:14-18

“Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.” 1 Jn. 2:22
 
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Carl Emerson

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I note you have visited the thread since I posted and have chosen not to reply to my question.

Firstly I would like to comment on two matters you raise...

The Scriptures teach that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, who denies him, is the antichrist.

Jesus befriended unbelieving Jews, was a 'friend of sinners' and indeed was criticised for it by the Pharisees.

Paul expressed a deep love for these same people.

Do you think we were all anti-Christ before being born again?

Are we then not called to love the 'anti-Christ' neighbours around us and are in fact commanded to do so.

The real danger here is that professing Christians by the thousands or by the hundreds of thousands are being led to bow to the antichrist and to worship him and to give him their undying loyalty to the point to where they are willing to hang another Christian and burn him/her at the stake.

Can you please give examples of this happening.

It is the religious Jews that Jesus had an issue with, not the common folk who were being drawn by the Spirit to salvation.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It is worth noting that the ones referred to by John as 'anti-Christ' were those who broke away from fellowship, not ordinary Jewish folk.

You can read it here...

1 John 2:

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be evident that they all are not of us.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Lastly I have no particular issue with your theology, it is just that our calling to love unsaved Jews into the Kingdom is not likely to be helped if we single them out as anti-Christ... to stress this seems anti-semetic and doesnt reflect the way Jesus and Paul related to their kin.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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Lastly I have no particular issue with your theology, it is just that our calling to love unsaved Jews into the Kingdom is not likely to be helped if we single them out as anti-Christ... to stress this seems anti-semetic and doesnt reflect the way Jesus and Paul related to their kin.

Agreed. We were all enemies of God at one time, that is why Jesus's sacrifice was needed in order to reconcile us back to God. Remember, Israel has had a longer relationship with God, they are less enemies of God than those in Christ once were. We are under the new covenant. It's new. We are new. No longer conformed to this world, and no longer enemies of God. Christ came to fulfil the law, not do away with it.

By the OP's 'statement' the gospel would exclude current Messianic believers from having ever being saved. Paul Wilbur shouldn't be saved, nor Carol Cantrell. God's so loved the world that He gave His begotten Son, that NONE should perish, but ALL have eternal life.

Shalom :)
 
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Norbert L

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From my personal experience having started my Christian journey in a cult that kept the 7th day as a rule and only believed in two thirds of the trinity. This happened to me around 40 years ago and I was there for my first 12 years approximately.

The way I see it, God is far less concerned with our theological views on what day makes you a true believer or whether Jews should stop circumcising their male children or else they must be Judaizers within their church.

Plus there were too many answered prayers and a few miracles while attending that cult to believe Satan was responsible for them.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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I note you have visited the thread since I posted and have chosen not to reply to my question.
Carl, if you want to have a discussion, stop with the false accusations. A delay in response, especially one in the middle of the night, is not to be interpreted as a refusal to respond. I have a life outside of CF. I have a very busy (full) life with many responsibilities. And I pray for wisdom in responding before I respond. So, I will only respond as the Lord leads me.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Firstly I would like to comment on two matters you raise...

Jesus befriended unbelieving Jews, was a 'friend of sinners' and indeed was criticised for it by the Pharisees.

Paul expressed a deep love for these same people.

Do you think we were all anti-Christ before being born again?

Are we then not called to love the 'anti-Christ' neighbours around us and are in fact commanded to do so.

It is the religious Jews that Jesus had an issue with, not the common folk who were being drawn by the Spirit to salvation.

Carl, the context of the OP is not about the subject of how we treat individuals. Yes, most certainly we are to love all people no matter who they are or what they look like or where they are from. We already had this discussion on another thread. The context of those who are "antichrist" is regarding those who refused to believe in Jesus as their Lord and Messiah.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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I think a statement though he did say think with him, maybe reason no response
I am a "she" not a "he." The reason no response is 1. I pray about how to respond before I respond. 2. It was in the middle of the night and I was going to bed. 3. I have a very busy and full life, and I can only respond when I have the time.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Lastly I have no particular issue with your theology, it is just that our calling to love unsaved Jews into the Kingdom is not likely to be helped if we single them out as anti-Christ... to stress this seems anti-semetic and doesnt reflect the way Jesus and Paul related to their kin.

Carl, the subject matter here is not whether or not we are called to love unsaved people (all people) into the kingdom of God. Of course that is what we are to do. That is one of the reasons why I am on this site.

Also, why do you think Paul went to such great lengths to explain to the Christians the spiritual condition of the unbelieving Jewish nation (as a whole, not as individuals)? It was because the Christians were being led astray by a certain group of Judaizers who were trying to convince them that they needed to follow some of the Old Covenant in order to be saved. So, Paul went into massive detail to explain where the nation, as a whole (not as individuals) stood before God if they did not accept Jesus as their Messiah.

And this isn't just about the Judaizers or the Jewish nation, but this has to do with false teachers of any kind who are leading God's people astray. The Scriptures are very pointed in describing false teachers so that the people will not be led astray by them.

So, this has nothing to do with being against a certain group of people, no matter who they are. It has to do with pointing out false doctrine which is leading people astray so that they will not get caught up in that false doctrine and go the wrong way. And the false doctrine here is teaching Christians that they must give their loyalty, devotion and allegiance to the Jewish nation (to their government) or else face God's wrath.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Agreed. We were all enemies of God at one time, that is why Jesus's sacrifice was needed in order to reconcile us back to God. Remember, Israel has had a longer relationship with God, they are less enemies of God than those in Christ once were. We are under the new covenant. It's new. We are new. No longer conformed to this world, and no longer enemies of God. Christ came to fulfil the law, not do away with it.

By the OP's 'statement' the gospel would exclude current Messianic believers from having ever being saved. Paul Wilbur shouldn't be saved, nor Carol Cantrell. God's so loved the world that He gave His begotten Son, that NONE should perish, but ALL have eternal life.

Shalom :)
SOTW - The Scriptures do not teach that the physical nation of Israel (as a whole, not as individuals) is "less enemies of God than those in Christ once were." All who deny Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, are enemies of God. They are antichrist. It is what the Scriptures teach, not my words. Those who don't believe in Jesus also do not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is what the Scriptures teach - Jesus' words.

Also, this is not about individuals. This is about a physical nation and its government and the influence they are having (not all individuals, but whoever is doing the influencing) on the lives of Christians when they press Christians to give them loyalty, devotion, and allegiance and then threaten them with God's wrath if they do not give such allegiance to the physical nation and/or if they oppose what the nation (as a whole, not as individuals) is doing.

I live in America. America (our government, our leaders, those in positions of influence and power) do things in other nations over which I have absolutely no say or control. I don't agree with everything our government does, and if they begin to insist on undivided loyalty and allegiance to them above my allegiance to God, I will not give it, and I will oppose such.

And this is what is taking place here with the nation of Israel (not with individuals). They are threatening Christians with the wrath of God if Christians do not give them their allegiance and loyalty, which the Scriptures say we are not to do. So, we can obey the nation (their government) or we can obey God. I choose to obey God. And I choose not to accept their threats which are not in line with the teaching of Scripture under the New Covenant. And this is all that this is about.

Love individual people, yes!! But don't bow to other gods. Don't give allegiance and heart devotion to what is antichrist. Don't go against the teachings of Scripture. Obey the Lord. Do what he says. Don't do what he says not to do. That is what this is about.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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From my personal experience having started my Christian journey in a cult that kept the 7th day as a rule and only believed in two thirds of the trinity. This happened to me around 40 years ago and I was there for my first 12 years approximately.

The way I see it, God is far less concerned with our theological views on what day makes you a true believer or whether Jews should stop circumcising their male children or else they must be Judaizers within their church.

Plus there were too many answered prayers and a few miracles while attending that cult to believe Satan was responsible for them.
Norbert, this isn't about what individuals choose or don't choose for themselves. this is isn't about whether someone chooses for himself to circumcise himself or his son. This is about the influence of false teachers who are preying on the naive and gullible and who are trying to convince them that they need to come under the Old Covenant system and laws in order to be saved or in order to escape the wrath of God. And it is about pressuring and threatening Christians that if they do not give their allegiance to a physical nation and its government that God's wrath will be visited on them.
 
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BeyondET

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I am a "she" not a "he." The reason no response is 1. I pray about how to respond before I respond. 2. It was in the middle of the night and I was going to bed. 3. I have a very busy and full life, and I can only respond when I have the time.

Roger that your response reminded me of the issue with the first KJV addition dubbed the she bible.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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Roger that your response reminded me of the issue with the first KJV addition dubbed the she bible.
I am sorry. I am not following your train of thought here. Please explain. Thank you.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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SOTW - The Scriptures do not teach that the physical nation of Israel (as a whole, not as individuals) is "less enemies of God than those in Christ once were." All who deny Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, are enemies of God. They are antichrist. It is what the Scriptures teach, not my words. Those who don't believe in Jesus also do not believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. It is what the Scriptures teach - Jesus' words.

Also, this is not about individuals. This is about a physical nation and its government and the influence they are having (not all individuals, but whoever is doing the influencing) on the lives of Christians when they press Christians to give them loyalty, devotion, and allegiance and then threaten them with God's wrath if they do not give such allegiance to the physical nation and/or if they oppose what the nation (as a whole, not as individuals) is doing.

I live in America. America (our government, our leaders, those in positions of influence and power) do things in other nations over which I have absolutely no say or control. I don't agree with everything our government does, and if they begin to insist on undivided loyalty and allegiance to them above my allegiance to God, I will not give it, and I will oppose such.

And this is what is taking place here with the nation of Israel (not with individuals). They are threatening Christians with the wrath of God if Christians do not give them their allegiance and loyalty, which the Scriptures say we are not to do. So, we can obey the nation (their government) or we can obey God. I choose to obey God. And I choose not to accept their threats which are not in line with the teaching of Scripture under the New Covenant. And this is all that this is about.

Love individual people, yes!! But don't bow to other gods. Don't give allegiance and heart devotion to what is antichrist. Don't go against the teachings of Scripture. Obey the Lord. Do what he says. Don't do what he says not to do. That is what this is about.

As a nation they have a relationship with God through God's law, that's all over scripture. As I said before, we all were God's enemies before we heard the gospel. So if Christ shouldn't have anything to do with human beings, then why die for us, His enemies? Why preach the gospel to God's enemies if you're not to have anything to do with them? For God, who is so holy, to have anything to do with mankind is even beyond the angels' comprehension.

We are to pray for Israel but give our allegiance to God. Jesus died for those who threatened His life, His own chosen people, Israel. He had an abundance of compassion, and longed to gather them under His wings, but they wouldn't let Him. And still He died for them, and for us.

There is a difference between compassion and poor judgement, though. Jesus would never fall into that trap, but we as disciples must be as innocent and guiltless as doves and yet as wise as serpents.

Considering that there are many believers in Israel, should we not be praying for the country? Evangelising the country? What would Jesus have us do?
 
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As a nation they have a relationship with God through God's law, that's all over scripture. As I said before, we all were God's enemies before we heard the gospel. So if Christ shouldn't have anything to do with human beings, then why die for us, His enemies? Why preach the gospel to God's enemies if you're not to have anything to do with them? For God, who is so holy, to have anything to do with mankind is even beyond the angels' comprehension.

We are to pray for Israel but give our allegiance to God. Jesus died for those who threatened His life, His own chosen people, Israel. He had an abundance of compassion, and longed to gather them under His wings, but they wouldn't let Him. And still He died for them, and for us.

There is a difference between compassion and poor judgement, though. Jesus would never fall into that trap, but we as disciples must be as innocent and guiltless as doves and yet as wise as serpents.

Considering that there are many believers in Israel, should we not be praying for the country? Evangelising the country? What would Jesus have us do?

I didn't say we shouldn't have anything to do with non-Christians. I said we should not bow down to governments/nations and give them our undivided loyalty, devotion, support and allegiance to the point to where their enemies become our enemies and to where we never speak against any evil that they might be doing out of fear of the wrath of God, especially since that is a lie from Satan, not from God.

We shouldn't bow to the threats of nations/governments no matter who they are, especially if that means going against Jesus Christ, his gospel, and his followers who are enemies of the Jewish nation which has not acknowledged Jesus Christ as their Messiah, though some individuals do. It is what the Scriptures teach. Jesus taught this over and over again as did Paul and the other apostles. I am just saying what the Scriptures say.

As a nation, the Jewish nation is God's enemy. They don't believe in God because they don't believe in Jesus Christ. This is what the Scriptures teach. Jesus said this. This is not speaking of all individual Jews, some of whom believe in Jesus Christ. So the Jewish nation does not have a relationship with God. Again, Jesus said this, not me. Read his words. Read Paul's words (all of them). The unbelieving Jews are of Hagar, the slave woman. They are not the children of promise. Only believers in Jesus are the children of promise. Read the Scriptures I quoted. It is what they say. These are not my words.

This is not about our personal relationships with other individual people. This is about a nation/government which is threatening Christians that if they do not align themselves politically and spiritually with that nation that God is going to pour down his wrath on them. That is not what the New Covenant teaches. Again, the promised seed is Jesus Christ so it is all who believe in Jesus who are the heirs of the promise with Isaac. Again, this comes right from the Scriptures. These are not my words.

We are not taught in the New Testament to pray for the peace of the physical nation of Israel which is antichrist unless we are praying for their salvation and their peace with God. We should pray for the safety of all people, no matter what nations they live in. We should pray for people to come to faith in Jesus Christ. I agree wholeheartedly that Jesus died for all people, and he has enormous compassion, but we aren't talking about that. We are talking about false teachers teaching a false doctrine and making threats in the name of God against all who do not comply with their ways of doing things.

So, pray for them, but according to God's will, not according to the will of humans who want us to pray for their peace and for us to pray against their enemies, for we are their enemies (of those who deny Jesus Christ as their Messiah). Yes there is a very small minority of believers in Jesus in that nation, and yes pray for their safety and their protection against evil and pray for their strength and courage to remain strong in their faith against all opposition. Love all people. Do good to them. Just don't adhere to false doctrines or threats in the name of God which are not of God.

Read the Scriptures in the New Testament which teach us about who Israel is today and what our response should be both to the people of the nation and to the nation as a governing body in the world. We are not to bow to them or worship them or adhere to their threats or see them in a god-like status to where we feel we must give them our allegiance (worship) or it is going to impact our relationship with God.
 
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