Come on, dad. The balls' in your court. You've made a number of claims about the spiritual, and stated they're testable and repeatable. Come up with those repeatable tests.dad said:
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Come on, dad. The balls' in your court. You've made a number of claims about the spiritual, and stated they're testable and repeatable. Come up with those repeatable tests.dad said:Show me which hypothesis about the supernatural.
No, the results are guaranteed. Most see some immediate changes, or some fairly soon, and others see them over more time. Some are minimal, and some are drastic. Billy Graham, for example, knew that something had changed when he tried it. He didn't feel any different, but he knew. Saul (Paul) couldn't help but know, as it blinded him, and I think knocked him off his horse, and he heard Jesus, and saw the light. It's time tested, tried, and proven o'er and o'er.Electric Sceptic said:You're getting off the track. Firstly, stop complaining that these things aren't testable. It was YOUR claim that they are - a claim you've yet to support. Now you claim that with your 'Jesus' test, it's impossible NOT to get results...but you mightn't realise that you've got results. Surely you see that for the purposes of the test, this is indistinguishable from not getting results at all?
Don't bring up anecdotal stories about ghosts, or laughable 'prophets' like Dixon...stick to your claim of repeatable tests.
Sorry, but it was YOU that claimed that these things were repeatable and testable. Now we find out they're not testable at all. You say that (for example) 'Billy Graham, for example, knew that something had changed when he tried it. He didn't feel any different, but he knew.' That is in no way testable. To be testable something must have verifiable results..."I know it did something" is not a verifiable result.dad said:No, the results are guaranteed. Most see some immediate changes, or some fairly soon, and others see them over more time. Some are minimal, and some are drastic. Billy Graham, for example, knew that something had changed when he tried it. He didn't feel any different, but he knew. Saul (Paul) couldn't help but know, as it blinded him, and I think knocked him off his horse, and he heard Jesus, and saw the light. It's time tested, tried, and proven o'er and o'er.
The kind of repeatable tests are the kind that YOU said could be done. But you haven't provided any.dad said:The kind of repeatable tests are not the knid the PO scientific method generally look for, not being physical. Prayer for example. Some prayers have more intensity than others, and are aimed well at targets, therefore, woulf generate better results. But still it is a law of the spirit world that prayer works. Sometimes we do not see the answers, sometimes the answer is no! Sometimes it takes a little longer, sometimes He has answered before we physically call! Sometimes the answer is not the one we thought we wanted, but was the best for us, sometimes the person we pray for is a factor. But prayer always works! Try sticking that in a lab! Yet it is a law, and repeatable, and billions will verify it works, and millions have had physical evidence as well, like eyes that now work, bones not crippled, ears that hear, and such!
Then it's not testable, and your statement that it was was false.dad said:Lets say we put a possesed man in a lab. Lets say he was possesed with a female evil spirit. Let's say several strong christians came in, and cast it out. Do you have some electrodes or something that can tell? No, your Po hasn't a clue, and is in no position to even ask for it!!!!!!!
Nope, nothing to study in a lab, because you wont' give us any repeatable tests, despite claiming such exists.dad said:How many spirits are in the lab right now, or the school library? How do you know? The hard work some scientists do, say on a nuclear submarine, the new ideas some of them come up with-where did they come from? Inside their head? How do you know? Can you prove it? One guy I heard for example had an after death experience, and came back. He told of seeing people working on a submarine system, and wathing them, also seeing many spirits hovering over them, talking to them, telling them things! They couldn't see or hear them, but responded by receiving the ideas. Lots to study in your lab for you!!!!!!
They are repeated all the time. They don't fit in the box, though. Really, it is silly to expect the PO scientific method to be able to test it's way out of a paper bag when it comes to spiritual things. I have mentioned some spiritual laws that are tested all the time, and work. They are things of the spirit, and not of the flesh, or physical only.The kind of repeatable tests are the kind that YOU said could be done. But you haven't provided any
Okay, now it's the whole scientific method that is 'PO'? Are you serious? You want to include your spiritual into your new spiriscience, but it doesn't have to follow the scientific method? Now that's precisely why spiriscience is a pseudo-science, not a science. You claim all sorts of repeatability and testability, and when it comes down to it, you want to abandon the scientific method and expect us to believe your claims without repeated testability (and no, don't bother claiming they're repeated all the time. They're not repeated and testable as you well know).dad said:They are repeated all the time. They don't fit in the box, though. Really, it is silly to expect the PO scientific method to be able to test it's way out of a paper bag when it comes to spiritual things.
No, they don't work. I've tried 'em, and they all failed.dad said:I have mentioned some spiritual laws that are tested all the time, and work. They are things of the spirit, and not of the flesh, or physical only.
Physical only is what that particular method is based on.Okay, now it's the whole scientific method that is 'PO'?
The method is not designed for the spiritual, and is applicable only for the physical world, don't try to make it apply to God, any more than a polygraph test! He set up the methods for testing the spiritual Himself. Move over rover, let the Almighty take over!You claim all sorts of repeatability and testability, and when it comes down to it, you want to abandon the scientific method ..
Oh my. So you tried to get saved, but found what?No, they don't work. I've tried 'em, and they all failed
Well, where PO takes a dive, is when it tries to venture way out where it don't belong, into a land where the spirit was merged with the physical. Perhaps even more important than spirystics, is the study of the merged physical and spiritual! No one has a name for this yet, thet I ever heard of anyhow. Anyone got a good one? Perhaps mergeology? ( far better then mere geology!) Or a lttle more exalted sounding 'Merged sciences'? What about 'true science'? Anyhow, you catch the drift.We don't need to consider the spiritual when we're just using the science bit to do perfectly ordinary things that your'e comfortable with, like making your TV work or designing a computer. It's only when science infringes on your religious beliefs that you want to bring in the 'spiri' part of 'spiriscience'
On the contrary, they will all benefit from the newfound insignificance of physical only belief. When the ring is cleared of them, may the best Man win.Of course, all the people in the world who believe in the spiritual but don't believe in your interpretation of your holy text can go jump
Most of these things, really are not open to much interpretation, like God is a spirit, He made man, He promises eternal life, angels, demons, heaven, He planted a garden, men lived near a thousand years, but will, if we believe in Jesus live forever, He rose from the dead, and had a spiritual/physical body, etc etc.! I have explained as well it's testability operates outside the realms of the physical, but is absolute, and certain.No accountability, no testability, just your word, based on your interpretation of the bible
Credit? Ha. I think we might have to wait till we take over the world to really get all that right. My faint hopes on this forum is for some christians to realize they were duped, snap out of it, and take their rightful place as keepers of the sacred flame, get back to believeing the truth of His word, and protect as many children from this faith robbing, anti God PO fables as possible. Understand that your faith is every bit as evidenced, and real, and valid (even more so) as so called science's rigid faith (enforced faith in schools as well) in the Po!!Honestly, dad, if you want to get any credibility for any sort of an amalgamation of science and the spiritual, you'll have to do a lot better than this.
What what 'particular method' is based on? The scientific method? No, it's not. It's not based on physical only or anything only.dad said:Physical only is what that particular method is based on.
It's designed for the acquiring and testing of knowledge. If there is spiritual knowledge that is testable, it is testable via the scientific method. Sadly (for your case), any spiritual knowledge that exists isn't testable.dad said:The method is not designed for the spiritual, and is applicable only for the physical world, don't try to make it apply to God, any more than a polygraph test! He set up the methods for testing the spiritual Himself. Move over rover, let the Almighty take over!
Now nothing. I recognised the 'spiritual' for the illusion it is.dad said:Oh my. So you tried to get saved, but found what?
PO doesn't take a dive, because it doesn't try to venture out where it don't belong. That's been covered many, many times in this thread. Science addresses the physical; that's all it can address. It does this because the physical is the only method accesible via the scientific method. And that's for precisely the reason you can't come up with any repeatable tests - because the spiritual isn't testable. Which is why it's no part of science.dad said:Well, where PO takes a dive, is when it tries to venture way out where it don't belong, into a land where the spirit was merged with the physical. Perhaps even more important than spirystics, is the study of the merged physical and spiritual! No one has a name for this yet, thet I ever heard of anyhow. Anyone got a good one? Perhaps mergeology? ( far better then mere geology!) Or a lttle more exalted sounding 'Merged sciences'? What about 'true science'? Anyhow, you catch the drift.
The best man has won. Science has proven itself time and again the best tool for finding out about our world.dad said:On the contrary, they will all benefit from the newfound insignificance of physical only belief. When the ring is cleared of them, may the best Man win.
I don't know what a 'POer' is.dad said:I think there is a lot to most of those things anyhow. Like the natives believed in a Great Spirit. No, it is POers that so often mock them, and what they believe, not bible believers.
No, you have CLAIMed it's testable, but you have been completely unable to come up with even a single valid test for anything in the spiritual realm, confirming that it has no place in science.dad said:Most of these things, really are not open to much interpretation, like God is a spirit, He made man, He promises eternal life, angels, demons, heaven, He planted a garden, men lived near a thousand years, but will, if we believe in Jesus live forever, He rose from the dead, and had a spiritual/physical body, etc etc.! I have explained as well it's testability operates outside the realms of the physical, but is absolute, and certain.
"Credit"? No, "Credible". You do know the difference, don't you?dad said:Credit? Ha. I think we might have to wait till we take over the world to really get all that right.
I think you better lift your game quite a lot if you ever want to convince anyone of anything on this subject.dad said:My faint hopes on this forum is for some christians to realize they were duped, snap out of it, and take their rightful place as keepers of the sacred flame, get back to believeing the truth of His word, and protect as many children from this faith robbing, anti God PO fables as possible.
I have no faith, in anything. Nor does science. Nor does it enforce anything in schools.dad said:Understand that your faith is every bit as evidenced, and real, and valid (even more so) as so called science's rigid faith (enforced faith in schools as well) in the Po!!
What what 'particular method' is based on? The scientific method? No, it's not. It's not based on physical only or anything only
Not to those of you who cannot observe itSadly (for your case), any spiritual knowledge that exists isn't testable.
But if it was the merge at work in the past or future, and we base everything only on as if it was always just like we now observe, physical only, then it actually sticks it's PO nose where it does not belong. Only in imagination would the universe really shrink down to a speck, it's just that they can't see the merge, so didn't have the good sense to stop imagining expansion thousands of years ago, rather than gettin silly about it. Inapplicable, overzealous belief!Science addresses the physical; that's all it can address.
Physical world, yes. Past merged universe, no. Future merged universe, with heaven, no. Not a good tool at all, actually for that. In fact, a total flop.The best man has won. Science has proven itself time and again the best tool for finding out about our world
Someone who believes only in the physical. Physical Only.I don't know what a 'POer' is.
When pointed to the way to test spiritual things, you revert to seeking physical evidence. It is repeatable in that it is repeated over and over. But it goes on His timetable, according to situation and need, not according to some test man devises.No, you have CLAIMed it's testable, but you have been completely unable to come up with even a single valid test for anything in the spiritual realm
Evolution and the big bang. The sun burning out, or The universe being billions of years old, based on an assumption of an only physical is real belief.And I don't know any "anti God PO fables".
Oh yes it does! It is based on the belief that only the physical exists, or matters or affected our orgins. Teaching evolution in schools is by law in most places, and education in many countries is not optional, but by force of law! The parents go to jail if they do not send kids to school! So many places do not allow the teaching of creation, or even the bible or prayer in schools.I have no faith, in anything. Nor does science. Nor does it enforce anything in schools.
Yes, it is.dad said:The scientific method, then, is founded upon direct observation of the world around us
That's nice.dad said:You cannot observe anything usually but the physical universe, so it is based on it. If observations of miracles count, or prophesies, angels, then thats different!
You've had ample chance to show how it's testable. You said it was. You repeatedly claimed it was. You've been totally unable to show that it is.dad said:Not to those of you who cannot observe it
Does this paragraph come with English subtitles?dad said:But if it was the merge at work in the past or future, and we base everything only on as if it was always just like we now observe, physical only, then it actually sticks it's PO nose where it does not belong. Only in imagination would the universe really shrink down to a speck, it's just that they can't see the merge, so didn't have the good sense to stop imagining expansion thousands of years ago, rather than gettin silly about it. Inapplicable, overzealous belief!
Too funny...a 'total flop'...better turn off your computer, stop driving your car, go back to living in a cave, hypocrite.dad said:Physical world, yes. Past merged universe, no. Future merged universe, with heaven, no. Not a good tool at all, actually for that. In fact, a total flop.
Nothing to do with science, then.dad said:Someone who believes only in the physical. Physical Only.
You've pointed out no way whatsoever to test spiritual things. You claimed you could; you've failed. Nor have I asked for physical evidence. YOU made the claim; you have completely failed to support it.dad said:When pointed to the way to test spiritual things, you revert to seeking physical evidence. It is repeatable in that it is repeated over and over. But it goes on His timetable, according to situation and need, not according to some test man devises.
Except that none of those are 'anti-god' or 'PO'.dad said:Evolution and the big bang. The sun burning out, or The universe being billions of years old, based on an assumption of an only physical is real belief.
Apparently you don't know the difference between faith and belief. And no, it's not "based on the belief that only the physical exists, or matters or affected our orgins." Next falsehood?dad said:Oh yes it does! It is based on the belief that only the physical exists, or matters or affected our orgins.
You cannot name a single place that does not allow the teaching of creation, or even of the teaching of creationism pseudoscience.dad said:Teaching evolution in schools is by law in most places, and education in many countries is not optional, but by force of law! The parents go to jail if they do not send kids to school! So many places do not allow the teaching of creation, or even the bible or prayer in schools.
.Electric Sceptic said:Yes, it is. [And that means only physical observation, as you can't see spiritual]
You've had ample chance to show how it's testable. You said it was. You repeatedly claimed it was. You've been totally unable to show that it is.
[It is not testable by severely limited physical only deciples, who insist only on their own only physical way, to measure spiritual things. That requires a different way of operating]
Does this paragraph come with English subtitles? [I'll have to condense it for you. The reason they think the universe was condensed into a little speck, is because of a few things. One of them is that it is now expanding, sp they reverse extrapolate, and see how it would have reverse expanded in their imagined billions of years. They come up wit the universe in a speck, and think they are really wizs]
Too funny...a 'total flop'...better turn off your computer, stop driving your car, go back to living in a cave, hypocrite. [Nasty. Science is my slave, I'll use it, as needed, and thank God for the good things He allowed man to be inspired to discover, despite his thickness. And you can lump it]
Nothing to do with science, then. [ Haven't you heard it admitted many times here on this forum? Science (box variety) is based only on the physical.]
You've pointed out no way whatsoever to test spiritual things. You claimed you could; you've failed. Nor have I asked for physical evidence. YOU made the claim; you have completely failed to support it. [ You test them His way]
Except that none of those are 'anti-god' or 'PO'. [ Are you kidding? The sun is only going to burn out, they say, brcause of the way the physical processes now work. After billions of years, it would lead to death of the sun. Based on onlyphysical. This is not what God teaches us. It will last forever. Therefore teaching it will burn out is very anti God. etc]
You cannot name a single place that does not allow the teaching of creation, or even of the teaching of creationism pseudoscience. [ Really? Can you tell me some places where in a public school, which kids, unless rich, or whatever, are compelled to attend, can learn that creation was actually just like the bible says, and true, and that granny actually it's just some story? Can you show me the places bible and prayer are done every morning, and children are encouraged to have faith in the God we trust? Can you show me the place where evolution is taught only in religion classes, and creation is taught as knowledge? etc]
You cannot name a single place that does not allow the bible in schools.
[Where, hidden in underwear? Or put in the science teacher's face?]
You cannot name a single place that does not allow prayer in schools.
[ Prayer to some moment of silence, or private god? What about the Lord's prayer that was tossed out? What about prayer for the day, and naming names as to who we pray to? No, this is for another thread. I read often in case after case, how christmas plays, christmas music, the Lord's pryer, and yes, bibles have been forbidden in places. Here is a nice poem for you.
The Warning
Take not the crosses from our graves
Of we, who died for you
And take not Him, Whose cross it was
From our children's schools
The time of which all prophets spake
Has come, it's not just near
Ten billion soldiers stand in line
Their warning's very clear
If you, with treachery, repay
Our children, who now live
We'll fight you from death's very doors
For this, we'll not forgive.
And this war won't be in vain,
When we, with Jesus, come
On fierce steeds, to take the earth
From us you shall not run!
Actually, it is simply spiritual.nvxplorer said:You're missing the third universal dimension, dad. The spiri-fizizzical. Rap artists detect this dimension of reality all the time. The evidence is in their lyrics. Check it out.
dad said:as you can't see spiritual
dad said:Are you kidding? The sun is only going to burn out, they say, brcause of the way the physical processes now work. After billions of years, it would lead to death of the sun. Based on onlyphysical. This is not what God teaches us. It will last forever.
No, it doesn't. Sight is not the only means of perception humans have.dad said:Yes, it is. [And that means only physical observation, as you can't see spiritual]
It's not testable any way. You've had your chance to show how it is; you've failed.dad said:It is not testable by severely limited physical only deciples, who insist only on their own only physical way, to measure spiritual things. That requires a different way of operating
Yup.dad said:I'll have to condense it for you. The reason they think the universe was condensed into a little speck, is because of a few things. One of them is that it is now expanding, sp they reverse extrapolate, and see how it would have reverse expanded in their imagined billions of years. They come up wit the universe in a speck, and think they are really wizs
So you use it, and thank god for it, but it's a 'total flop'? You're not even making sense.dad said:Nasty. Science is my slave, I'll use it, as needed, and thank God for the good things He allowed man to be inspired to discover, despite his thickness. And you can lump it
Which has nothing to do with your nonsense.dad said:Haven't you heard it admitted many times here on this forum? Science (box variety) is based only on the physical.
No, you don't test them in ANY way. You've been asked to show a way; you've failed.dad said:You test them His way
dad said:Are you kidding? The sun is only going to burn out, they say, brcause of the way the physical processes now work. After billions of years, it would lead to death of the sun. Based on onlyphysical. This is not what God teaches us. It will last forever. Therefore teaching it will burn out is very anti God. etc
Sorry, but it's up to YOU to name a place where it is illegal to teach creation or creationism. That's your claim; yet another one you can't support.dad said:Really? Can you tell me some places where in a public school, which kids, unless rich, or whatever, are compelled to attend, can learn that creation was actually just like the bible says, and true, and that granny actually it's just some story? Can you show me the places bible and prayer are done every morning, and children are encouraged to have faith in the God we trust? Can you show me the place where evolution is taught only in religion classes, and creation is taught as knowledge? etc]
dad said:Where, hidden in underwear? Or put in the science teacher's face?
For the third time, it's YOUR claim; you support it. You haven't, and can't.dad said:Prayer to some moment of silence, or private god? What about the Lord's prayer that was tossed out? What about prayer for the day, and naming names as to who we pray to? No, this is for another thread. I read often in case after case, how christmas plays, christmas music, the Lord's pryer, and yes, bibles have been forbidden in places.
He was saying to the devil in Matthew that the punk shouldn't tempt Him. How could you be so far afield? I already showed how He likes to be tested and proved. You cannot dispute it, and I've seldom seen such a silly, unspiritual, lame attempt. Hardly worthy of a response, but since kids might read it, I guess I better [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] ip the artillary, in case you peep up any more.Numenor said:dad's whole assertion that the spiritual world, including God himself, is subject to some kind of repeatable tests is completely unbiblical.
"Do not put the Lord your God to the test" - Matt 4:7 & Deut 6:16
I just hope people here have realised by now that dad speaks entirely for himself and nobody else in Christendom.
OK, lets look at this. Are you saying that the sun will burn out, or that it will never burn out and die?Sorry, but 'anti-dad's particular interpretation of one particular part of one particular religious text' does not equate to 'anti-god'.
I use it, yes/ It is not a total flop at all. My beef is with WOMD, and abotion, and cloning, and some of these misuses of it, and especially it's dreams of old ages based on PO processes. In other words, where it opposes God's word. The run of the mill stuff, is pretty neutral, and like apple pie, -good in moderation.So you use it, and thank god for it, but it's a 'total flop'? You're not even making sense. (science)
Not that the earth is flat. Thats a popular misconception, and you ought to hold whoever's feet to the fire who taught you that. The earth will be the center of the universe, as it was. You will see this when the new heaven is revealed, and we see not just the physical part of things. It is only thought to be wrong as measured by blind, deaf and dumb physical only abilities to measure and see. So, as far as our solar system goes, yes, we in science do have a pretty good grasp of it in many ways. But this takes nothing away from the bible.zilch said:So how can we know that this spiritual world is not fictional stories that you have made real all in your head?
Because right now your method for observing the spiritual world looks like one big snipe hunt.
People also used to say that God taught that the Earth is at the center of the solar system and that the Earth is flat. It was science that showed this to be wrong, considering this it would appear that science has the better track record when it comes to the solar system.
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