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dad said:I looked into this one. Can't handwave it away at all. Show me one university which teaches evolution, cosmology, biology, and the paleo junk, and all for free? Where is the bookstore where they give the free books I'd like to burn anyhow away? Where is there hospitals, and medicine for free, and doctors who worh for free as well? Jesus praised the widow for throwing in the bit she had, and we don't need your insinuations, or moral superiority that men should not have the blessing of being able to give to God a little. They did this from the beginning, right outside the garden they were sacrificing to God, Cain and Able.
They did it in the old temple, and while Moses was in the desert, and God didn't part the sea, send pillars of fire and smoke to guide them, drop manna from heaven, and make water come out of a rock for their paltry donnations. Miracles are not sesibly priced- they are free, the tips we may give God are an afterthought, or token.
..Electric Sceptic said:Actually, he said that you should not test God...something you like to claim can be done.
[Well, my holy bible says this.
Mt 4:7 - Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. , proving Him is great, and biblical]
You have not shown it; you have claimed it and, despite repeated requests, have not supported your claim in any way.
[
Jud 6:39 - And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.
Mal 3:10 - Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 1 Kings 18: 22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: 24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken' So many cases God liked His people to prove Him, and put Him to the test.]
Everyone in this thread, christians included, with the exception of you, can and is disputing it, since you've not supported it in any way. [see above post]
So which is it...is the spiritual testable and repeatable, and consequently approachable via the scientific method, or is it not testable and repeatable, and consequently not approachable via the scientific method?
[It is testable, and repeatable. The spiritual has it's tests and laws, and way it works, and the physical has as well. They are not the same, you can't put the spirit or God in your little box. If you are asking if it is testable by physical methods of observation, then, not really, but it is observable if we obey the spiritual laws! Spirits aren't sent down to pee in a bottle! You'd need a reason for a spirit to be sent to you, or allowed to in many cases. Being in a lab isn't that reason. In fact, God may want to disguise the angel, so obviously the things of the spirit require different guidelibnes than the physical ones. I'd suggest looking into the eyewitnesses of the ressurection, rather than stomping your feet and holding your breath till you turn blue, cause He doesn't give a hoot about the so called scientific method of present Godless science!]
I claim that the force of gravity at sea level on our planet is 9.8 m/s^2. To support this, I propose a simple experiment. Drop a weight from a height of ten metres at (approximately) sea level. It should take slightly over one second to hit the ground. This test is repeatable by anyone, at any time. Every time it is performed and the weight does take slightly over one second to hit the ground, the claim gets a bit more support. Conversely, if at any time the weight takes (say) half a second, or two seconds to hit the ground, the claim is falsified. This test encompasses the core of the scientific method - a hypothethesis (force of gravity is 9.8 m/s^2 at sea level), an experiment (drop a weight from ten metres), expected results (weight takes just over a second to hit the ground), and conclusions (hypothesis either supported or falsified by the actual results). This is what testable means in this context. Anything that is testable in similar fashion is approachable via the scientific method.
[ How did Jesus fare with this method while He was ascending into heaven? He didn't fall at all, so the method is restricted to things of the physical, which do operate that way.]
Now, is the spiritual testable in this fashion? Note that your famous 'physical only' objection doesn't work here. There are no reasons why the expected results need be physical. For example, if you were to claim that, after inviting Jesus into your life, people will experience a supreme feeling of peace and tranquility, that would be valid (and obviously not physical). It would be rather subjective and difficult to quantify, but it would be something. It would be an expected result. If you can't provide a meaningful expected result (ie., more than 'something will happen, sometime'), then it's not testable. The same applies to all your other claims of 'spiritual laws' that are inviolate. What are they, and how do we test them? [You obey the conditions, and put them to the test. You come at it from a standpoint of humility and faith, this is one condition. You don't don a little Napoleon hat, point to a lab, and say, 'Now God, get an angel in there pronto, we are doing it this way today'!]
Now, if it's not testable, my question is just how does your 'spiriscience' work? What does it achieve? For example, how does it tell us that evolutionary theory is false?
[In effect, yes, because evolution rests upon physical only assumptions which are completely invalidated because they were merged with a spiritual factor, or, in the future, will be. So, we look how science works in a spiritual enviroment. Trees growing in days, people living near a thousand years, a sun that will not burn out, time itself being no more, and etc etc etc etc etc! Then we look at the physical, and base our conclusions accordingly, and, heavens, -not just on the PO!] Science tells us evolutionary theory is true; how does 'spiriscience' work to tell us differently? Is 'spiriscience' anything more than 'science until my interpretation of the bible is contradicted by it, and then my interpretation of the bible'? Remember, you are the one putting forward this 'spiriscience', wanting to teach it to children, and so forth - it's quite reasonable for me to ask exactly what it is and how it works. [See above post]
Deut 6:16 - Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Next question?Numenor said:I think I will dispute it dad as you continue to show you don't know the Bible nor do you read what people post. Jesus was quoting Deuteronomy 6:16 wasn't he, and who was being spoken to and by whom in that verse? God himself was telling the Israelites not to put him to the test, as they had done before. Your bravado makes you look even more foolish than your pontificating.
That's nice. But you were the one who said the spiritual could be tested...I'm still waiting for YOU to show how.dad said:You have not shown it; you have claimed it and, despite repeated requests, have not supported your claim in any way.
[Jud 6:39 - And Gideon said unto God, Let not thine anger be hot against me, and I will speak but this once: let me prove, I pray thee, but this once with the fleece; let it now be dry only upon the fleece, and upon all the ground let there be dew.
Mal 3:10 - Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 1 Kings 18: 22 Then said Elijah unto the people, I, even I only, remain a prophet of the LORD; but Baal's prophets are four hundred and fifty men. 23 Let them therefore give us two bullocks; and let them choose one bullock for themselves, and cut it in pieces, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: and I will dress the other bullock, and lay it on wood, and put no fire under: 24 And call ye on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD: and the God that answereth by fire, let him be God. And all the people answered and said, It is well spoken' So many cases God liked His people to prove Him, and put Him to the test.
Great. Nobody's tryign to put either the spirit or god in any box. I'm just asking you to support your claims. So far we have your assertion that the spiritual has its tests and laws. Great.dad said:So which is it...is the spiritual testable and repeatable, and consequently approachable via the scientific method, or is it not testable and repeatable, and consequently not approachable via the scientific method?
[It is testable, and repeatable. The spiritual has it's tests and laws, and way it works, and the physical has as well. They are not the same, you can't put the spirit or God in your little box.
Let's see...did I ask that? No.dad said:If you are asking if it is testable by physical methods of observation, then, not really
Great. HOW?dad said:but it is observable if we obey the spiritual laws!
Charming.dad said:Spirits aren't sent down to pee in a bottle!
Right...sounds like some advance reasons that the tests don't work.dad said:You'd need a reason for a spirit to be sent to you, or allowed to in many cases. Being in a lab isn't that reason. In fact, God may want to disguise the angel
Great. WHAT guidelines are they?dad said:so obviously the things of the spirit require different guidelibnes than the physical ones.
Why? That's got nothing at all to do with your claims.dad said:I'd suggest looking into the eyewitnesses of the ressurection
That's just childish.dad said:rather than stomping your feet and holding your breath till you turn blue
Who said he did? YOU said that the spiritual was testable and repeatable; that makes it accessible via the scientific method, in which repeatable testability is crucial. So far, you've not backed up your claim.dad said:cause He doesn't give a hoot about the so called scientific method of present Godless science!
This is just an evasion. Obviously the test described was physical in nature; your pointing it out accomplishes nothing. It was given to show you how a test is actually documented - which you sorely need, for thus far youv'e shown no signs of showing any test in a similar format for the spiritual.dad said:How did Jesus fare with this method while He was ascending into heaven? He didn't fall at all, so the method is restricted to things of the physical, which do operate that way.
Great, what ARE the conditions, and how do you put them to the test? How many times do I have to ask you this before you stop evading and actually answer?dad said:You obey the conditions, and put them to the test. You come at it from a standpoint of humility and faith, this is one condition.
Wonderful. You've pointed out - several times - how NOT to test it. How about you point out how TO test it?dad said:You don't don a little Napoleon hat, point to a lab, and say, 'Now God, get an angel in there pronto, we are doing it this way today'!
This does nothing to answer my question. You cannot evidence or show any of the above. So, again, I ask how does your 'spiriscience' show us that evolution (or anything else) is wrong?dad said:In effect, yes, because evolution rests upon physical only assumptions which are completely invalidated because they were merged with a spiritual factor, or, in the future, will be. So, we look how science works in a spiritual enviroment. Trees growing in days, people living near a thousand years, a sun that will not burn out, time itself being no more, and etc etc etc etc etc! Then we look at the physical, and base our conclusions accordingly, and, heavens, -not just on the PO!
Wonderful. You've pointed out - several times - how NOT to test it. How about you point out how TO test it?
Hopefully you see the 'scientific method' encompasses only the physical. 'His will method' would apply to the spiritual. But they can work together somewhat. For example, if we want to know about man evolving from primitive lifeforms, we see what He says about it. A careful look will show there was no time for this to happen, and that He created everything in a week, in our universe. We can look at physical evidence like the fossil record as well. Combining the two, we see that we can come up with some idea of how things gat started. This will be far far different than what we would come up with using only the physical.YOU said that the spiritual was testable and repeatable; that makes it accessible via the scientific method, in which repeatable testability is crucial
If it shows to be a reliable source, then we have some ressurections from the dead that were repeated, and will be repeated again.I'd suggest looking into the eyewitnesses of the ressurection
Why? That's got nothing at all to do with your claims.
dad said:I looked into this one. Can't handwave it away at all. Show me one university which teaches evolution, cosmology, biology, and the paleo junk, and all for free?
dad said:Where is the bookstore where they give the free books I'd like to burn anyhow away?
dad said:Where is there hospitals, and medicine for free,
dad said:and doctors who worh for free as well?
dad said:the tips we may give God are an afterthought, or token.
Deut 6:16 - Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. Next question?
That's wonderful. Unfortunately, it STILL doesn't tell us how to test the spiritual. It appears you can't support your claim. I'm not surprised.dad said:Re 3:3 - Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
How do you test when He is coming? Some will watch and know, others will not, because He set out the thing so it will be that way, depending on the person, and their reation and compliance with His word, and way of doing things. Begin to notice here, He did not say, paint some acid on a test tube, and you will know!
2Ki 6:17 - And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Now in this verse, it shows there was observable phenomena-UFOs, and angels in huge numbers buzzing around in a hub of activity. The young man could not see it, God's prophet could. No special night lenses or PO science gizmos needed. Then God opened the eyes of the guy, and he could then see it as well. Spritual things have something in common, everything depends on His will! The reason, really the PO is out of whack with His will alone, I think. In the complete merged, eternal universe, His will will again be the underlying force in nature. Need a tree to grow fast? If He does, it does, all the PO and the spiritual combine to make it happen.
When Jesus appeared to those in a room, why did they see Him only when He decided to appear? It all depends on His will in the spirit world, and what He knows is best, the loving God, for each of us. By the same token, notice He didn't appear to some 'lab' down the street, or something! Puny man does not test God on puny man's wicked own terms, but He can be put to the test!
Oh, and he that cometh to God must believe that He is..and that He is a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Starting to get it yet?
Nope. You haven't demonstrated it.dad said:Hopefully you see the 'scientific method' encompasses only the physical.
What ever that's supposed to mean for your claimed 'testability'.dad said:'His will method' would apply to the spiritual.
You mean, of course, we can look at one particular 'holy' text, the one in which you happen to believe.dad said:But they can work together somewhat. For example, if we want to know about man evolving from primitive lifeforms, we see what He says about it.
That's nice. Throw away science for what a five thousand year old text says.dad said:A careful look will show there was no time for this to happen, and that He created everything in a week, in our universe.
We've done that...it overwhelmingly supports science.dad said:We can look at physical evidence like the fossil record as well.
You can't 'combine the two'. They tell completely different stories.dad said:Combining the two, we see that we can come up with some idea of how things gat started. This will be far far different than what we would come up with using only the physical.
Umm...right. IF it shows to be a reliable source. And if the Iliad shows to be a reliable source...you get the picture.dad said:If it shows to be a reliable source, then we have some ressurections from the dead that were repeated, and will be repeated again.
.DJ_Ghost said:The Open University if you are on a low income or are unemployed.
[Tuition then is not a big concern, and the medical and educational world are very unmoneyconcious. Like missionaries, really, and the only place where giving money away is bad would be say, to healers who just prayed God to open our blind eyes?]
We don’t give money to God we give it to churches. At least the rest of us do but as you keep telling us you don’t attend church i can only assume you don’t donate to them either.
[Church buildings do not rank high on what I think any giving to God money should go, no]
Ghost
The devil may not tempt God, no. I have no intention of doing that either. We may put Him to the test, as I have illustrated, and prove He works, absolutely! Look at doubting Thomas! Jesus told him to come over and put Him to the test, stick his fingers in the wounds in His hands, which, incidentally showed He had HIs physical body! Yet, it had just popped into a room, like a spook!. The merge is a wonderful thing!Numenor said:You think Jesus quoted the verse incorrectly then?...
That's the problem, dad. I can't look at doubting Thomas. I can only look at a book. Are there any living prophets? Why yes, there are. You could have it all wrong, dad. Maybe the Washington Times is the true word of God?dad said:The devil may not tempt God, no. I have no intention of doing that either. We may put Him to the test, as I have illustrated, and prove He works, absolutely! Look at doubting Thomas! Jesus told him to come over and put Him to the test, stick his fingers in the wounds in His hands, which, incidentally showed He had HIs physical body! Yet, it had just popped into a room, like a spook!. The merge is a wonderful thing!
.Electric Sceptic said:What ever that's supposed to mean for your claimed 'testability'.
[It is still there, as magnificant as ever! Not applicable to man's puny methods but working like a house on fire if we want to test it His ways. His ways, you may have heard are not man's ways!? They are very very very much higher! So high, they are clear out of the box!]
You mean, of course, we can look at one particular 'holy' text, the one in which you happen to believe.
[ Yes, or not, whatever gets you through the night]
That's nice. Throw away science for what a five thousand year old text says.
[Think about it, if God created the world thousands of years ago, and provided a book to man to learn about Him, would it just have been written this year? No, it would be thousands of years old, and cover the whole thing right back to the garden! Which it does! Now, Johnny come lately physical only, spiritually blind and deaf so called science, and knowledge of man, why, the only way to determine if it was inspired by the good spirits or bad, is to see how close it comes to the real macoy, the bible! So, don't throw it all away, we can use some bits as our slaves and servants, in subjection to the laws of the spiritual. But it would make a devil of a master! You know, weapons of mass destruction, death, going against the very word of God, etc]
We've done that...it overwhelmingly supports science.
[No, they really botched that one. They connect it with some lifeform producing all men and beasts, by horrid little assumptions, and limited knowledge of the evidence. A migration out from eden better explains it, and a created beginning.]
You can't 'combine the two'. They tell completely different stories.
[Doubting Thomas saw they were combined and had real opportunity to test it, and saw for himself it was very true. Same story, the merge. ]
Umm...right. IF it shows to be a reliable source. And if the Iliad shows to be a reliable source...you get the picture.
[Neither the Iliad, nor spider man, nor tales of granny bacteria, or physics 101, are anything but dead words. The reliable bible is timeless, indestructable, tried and proven for millenia, 100% accurate in prophesy, and alive and well.]
.nvxplorer said:That's the problem, dad. I can't look at doubting Thomas. [You can't look at granny or the creator speck either. The bible is a document that was done in the open, not in the closet, and has many witnesses. Why should I doubt them? Why should I doubt the healings I have seen, and read about by real men and women of God? Why should I doubt every saint and miracle of the catholic church, which goes way back to the early christian days? Why should I doubt all hindu, buddist, and muslim miracles, and the reat? Why shoud I doubt there is some limited power in satanism, and witchcraft? Why should I doubt life after death experiences, and the being of light, and the light at the end of the tunnel, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc, as well as all angels and ghosts, and departed relatives, etc?] I can only look at a book. Are there any living prophets? Why yes, there are. You could have it all wrong, dad. Maybe the Washington Times is the true word of God?
dad said:Neither the Iliad, nor spider man, nor tales of granny bacteria, or physics 101, are anything but dead words. The reliable bible is timeless, indestructable, tried and proven for millenia, 100% accurate in prophesy, and alive and well..
dad said:It is still there, as magnificant as ever! Not applicable to man's puny methods but working like a house on fire if we want to test it His ways. His ways, you may have heard are not man's ways!? They are very very very much higher! So high, they are clear out of the box!
A nice little rant that doesn't get you any closer to supporting your claims.dad said:Think about it, if God created the world thousands of years ago, and provided a book to man to learn about Him, would it just have been written this year? No, it would be thousands of years old, and cover the whole thing right back to the garden! Which it does! Now, Johnny come lately physical only, spiritually blind and deaf so called science, and knowledge of man, why, the only way to determine if it was inspired by the good spirits or bad, is to see how close it comes to the real macoy, the bible! So, don't throw it all away, we can use some bits as our slaves and servants, in subjection to the laws of the spiritual. But it would make a devil of a master! You know, weapons of mass destruction, death, going against the very word of God, etc]
Thanks, I needed a good laugh.dad said:No, they really botched that one. They connect it with some lifeform producing all men and beasts, by horrid little assumptions, and limited knowledge of the evidence. A migration out from eden better explains it, and a created beginning.
No, he didn't see they were combined. They can't be combined.dad said:Doubting Thomas saw they were combined and had real opportunity to test it, and saw for himself it was very true. Same story, the merge.
dad said:Neither the Iliad, nor spider man, nor tales of granny bacteria, or physics 101, are anything but dead words. The reliable bible is timeless, indestructable, tried and proven for millenia, 100% accurate in prophesy, and alive and well.[/QUOTE]
More unsupported claims. Yawn.
Here's 100 to get you started, fulfilled bible prophesies. http://www.100prophecies.org/zilch said:What makes the bible more reliable than The Iliad?
What prophesies has it predicted? Any recent prophesies?
By the way to you watch stuff like Jack Van Impe? Because that would explain a lot.
I can't see the message for me in this reply. I suspect it is some evoisticly based idea of where dolphins came from, that you'd like to enter in to the whale thread? I'm not shaking in my boots. If not, then, go ahead and dazzle us with the secret code here.nvxplorer said:The dolphins don't take kindly to being called beasts, dad. They say you're doomed for dolphin hell.
(I know you won't give this bit of levity much thought, but there's a philosophical message in there if you choose to look for it.)
.Electric Sceptic said:No, he didn't see they were combined. They can't be combined.
[Should we take the bible's word about Thomas or yours? Yours is only as good as someone saying Jesus didn't rise from the dead with no support. They absolutely can and will and have been combined]
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