Dad Hagin's position on OSAS

[victoryword]

From the September 2004 issue of Word of Faith Magazine.

The late Dad Hagin's question and answer session

Question: Do you believe “once saved, always saved”?

I could teach on this subject at length, but I will just briefly explain my answer. There are basically two schools of thought on this subject, and each one dates back hundreds of years. One teaches that once you are saved, you are always saved no matter what you do in life. The other school of thought teaches that if you do the least little thing that’s wrong, you’re out; you lose your salvation.

The real truth of the matter, without going into great detail, is this: If you are born again, you are “in Christ.” The Bible says, “Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Cor. 5:17). You can’t continually get in and out of Christ over and over. If you ever get “out of Christ,” you are out of Him forever. That’s the end of it. You can only be born again once.

Now if you are in Christ and you sin, that doesn’t mean you get “out” of Christ. If you sin, you can be forgiven of your sin. First John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

You see, there is a difference between your relationship with God and your fellowship with God. Your relationship with God was established by God Himself through Christ Jesus. You didn’t establish it and sin can’t dissolve it. However, sin does break your fellowship with God. Until you repent of that sin, your fellowship remains broken, while your relationship remains intact.

The Book of First John explains this more fully. And according to First John, there is a “sin unto death,” or what is called “the unpardonable sin” (1 John 5:16). [Brother Hagin will address the topic of “the unpardonable sin” more fully in a future issue of The Word of Faith.—Ed.] This is the only circumstance that will break your relationship with God. To commit the sin unto death, you have to turn your back on Jesus and willfully reject Him. Once a person does this, he becomes “out of Christ” and can never get back into Him.

I do not believe in “once saved, always saved.” There are too many accounts recorded in Scripture of people who once walked with God and then turned their backs on Him. If you read Hebrews 6:1–6, you will clearly see that falling away from a relationship with God is possible.

However, as long as a person is “in Christ,” he is all right where his or her eternal salvation is concerned. There is no believer who does not miss it from time to time, and in those instances, he has been given First John 1:9. But let me add that one who has knowledge of the truth and deliberately chooses to live a lifestyle of repeated sin, knowing that it is contrary to God’s Word, incurs the danger of searing his conscience and falling from grace.

However, as long as a person endeavors to live a life pleasing to God and asks forgiveness when he sins, he is maintaining fellowship with God. Those who are in danger of losing their relationship with God are those who sin willfully with no sense of remorse and no attitude of repentance for their deeds.
=========================================================
Notice that Hagin neither advocated a stringent "every sin causes me to lose my salvation" nor did he embrace the OSAS position.

 

[Theophilus7]

From the September 2004 issue of Word of Faith Magazine.

The late Dad Hagin's question and answer session

Question: Do you believe “once saved, always saved”?

I could teach on this subject at length, but I will just briefly explain my answer. There are basically two schools of thought on this subject, and each one dates back hundreds of years. One teaches that once you are saved, you are always saved no matter what you do in life. The other school of thought teaches that if you do the least little thing that’s wrong, you’re out; you lose your salvation.

The real truth of the matter, without going into great detail, is this: If you are born again, you are “in Christ.” The Bible says, “Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2 Cor. 5:17). You can’t continually get in and out of Christ over and over. If you ever get “out of Christ,” you are out of Him forever. That’s the end of it. You can only be born again once.

Now if you are in Christ and you sin, that doesn’t mean you get “out” of Christ. If you sin, you can be forgiven of your sin. First John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

You see, there is a difference between your relationship with God and your fellowship with God. Your relationship with God was established by God Himself through Christ Jesus. You didn’t establish it and sin can’t dissolve it. However, sin does break your fellowship with God. Until you repent of that sin, your fellowship remains broken, while your relationship remains intact.

The Book of First John explains this more fully. And according to First John, there is a “sin unto death,” or what is called “the unpardonable sin” (1 John 5:16). [Brother Hagin will address the topic of “the unpardonable sin” more fully in a future issue of The Word of Faith.—Ed.] This is the only circumstance that will break your relationship with God. To commit the sin unto death, you have to turn your back on Jesus and willfully reject Him. Once a person does this, he becomes “out of Christ” and can never get back into Him.

I do not believe in “once saved, always saved.” There are too many accounts recorded in Scripture of people who once walked with God and then turned their backs on Him. If you read Hebrews 6:1–6, you will clearly see that falling away from a relationship with God is possible.

However, as long as a person is “in Christ,” he is all right where his or her eternal salvation is concerned. There is no believer who does not miss it from time to time, and in those instances, he has been given First John 1:9. But let me add that one who has knowledge of the truth and deliberately chooses to live a lifestyle of repeated sin, knowing that it is contrary to God’s Word, incurs the danger of searing his conscience and falling from grace.

However, as long as a person endeavors to live a life pleasing to God and asks forgiveness when he sins, he is maintaining fellowship with God. Those who are in danger of losing their relationship with God are those who sin willfully with no sense of remorse and no attitude of repentance for their deeds.
=========================================================
Notice that Hagin neither advocated a stringent "every sin causes me to lose my salvation" nor did he embrace the OSAS position.

I agree with Hagin's position on this. OSAS, in my opinion, is simply presumption. It can do one of two things: it can either lead to the erroneous antinomian belief that Christians have been given a license to sin, or it can leave a person in a continual state of fear about their position in Christ. Hagin is surely right, however, to reject the notion that we pop in and out of Christ every time we sin and repent. I am glad to see he was so balanced on this issue.

T7

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I have found that most people who are against OSAS present a faulty version of the teaching for the sole purpose of refuting it. (Straw man).
I am closer to OSAS than ASSD (A single sin damns).

 

[victoryword]

I am closer to OSAS than ASSD (A single sin damns).

Never heard it put quite like that before.

 

[Theophilus7]

Never heard it put quite like that before.

Is ASSD a convention, or of your own invention. (A poet, and didn't know it )

David Pawson (famous among evangelicals on this side of the Atlantic) has written a book called "Once saved, always saved?" I haven't read it yet, but it is supposed to present a pretty good case against the OSAS view.

Here it is, if you're interested: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0340610662/qid=1096402531/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/104-5847425-1408744?v=glance&s=books

God bless,

T7

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Is ASSD a convention, or of your own invention. (A poet, and didn't know it )


God bless,

T7

It is a genuine didaism beyond all criticism.

 

[Theophilus7]

It is a genuine didaism beyond all criticism.

Ah, that's only assonance at best. Mine was a rhyme.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Dids is didactically challenged.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The resolution to this discussion, I think, lies in the differentiation between fellowship and relationship, eternal justice and temporal justice, and sin unto death/sin not unto death.

 

[Andrew]

This is the one thing that I disagree with with Bro Hagin.

I also disagree with the fellowship/relationship thing. The two are the same thing. There is no difference.

I also believe that Hagin does not believe in OSAS becos of a vision he had. It's a long story and its recorded in his book "I Believe in Visions".

His position actually is that only mature spirit-filled Christians can lose their salvation, according to that vision.

Finally, 1 John 1:9 is not for the Christian to use.

 

[Hisgirl]

Having been raised my whole life in the SBC and spoon-fed the OSAS theory....the idea that we could possibly lose our salvation is a basically new thing to chew on for me. I think it is a HUGE thing to ponder...and because it is basically the biggest most dreaded thing a Christian could do...I would like to think God, Jesus, Paul, John, Peter ....somebody...would have spelled it out it plain, cannot be interpreted in any other way words.

I know all the verses that can be quoted, but they can also be interpreted some different ways.....Why do you think Paul couldn't have just stated...."And after that man has received the Spirit and been made righteousness...and he continues to mock God and sin until the cows come home, God will send his soul to damnation...thus erasing his name from the book of life." ?

Just how many sins is too much? Is a Christian living with a woman too much? What about a sweet Godly woman who gives into gossip, over and over? What about Romans 4:8? I was raised up to believe that if a Christian got into blatant, unrepented sin....that eventually the Lord would just bring the brother/sister home.

For a christian, it just doesn't get bigger than this....so why didn't God say it out loud, in plain words, not to be mistaken, not to be misunderstood?

 

[Suffolk Sean]

It is a genuine didaism beyond all criticism.

Who let Jesse Jackson in here?

 

[Johnny Be Good]

This is the one thing that I disagree with with Bro Hagin.

I also disagree with the fellowship/relationship thing. The two are the same thing. There is no difference.

Very interesting. I don't understand where you're coming from since it makes sense to my peanut that we can be in and out of fellowship but not in and out of relationship.

Can you elaborate on your position?

 

[victoryword]

I posted this on another internet forum and I am amazed at what I read on this forum and that forum. So far, those who otherwise love the late Hagin Sr. but who lean strongly towards conditional security disagree with Hagin's stance and those who love the late Hagin Sr. but lean strongly towards OSAS disagree with Hagin's position. Ironic that both sides dispute Hagin on this.

In my understanding of Scripture Hagin is right on. No one should ever featr losing their salvation but at the same time, no one should ever persist in sin and become careless. 1 John 3:9 should be a warning to both extreme OSAS and extreme conditional securitists:

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [1] habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God. (God's Word)

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (NASB)

Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. (Good News)

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (NIV)
​

I know that many Wesleyans (who are strongly "conditional security" advocates) do not agree with how the above passage is interpretted by some (see Adam Clark's commentary and John Wesley's notes on the Bible as two examples), but it does show that people can have a different perspective on this subject and both believe that they have a Scriptural basis for it.
At the same time, many OSAS people ask, "how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?" It has nothing to do with a particular number. It has more to do with ATTITUDE. Deliberate continuing and persisting in sin says much about a person's love or lack oflove for Christ.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

My understanding of 1 John 3:9 is somewhat different.
I understand it to be talking about the new man that is within the believer.
John states that people who are of God do not (cannot) sin because the seed (or nature of God) is in them. He is not talking about the total man (spirit soul body) because the flesh and soul are still capable of sin, and the only part of man that is actually "born of God" is the spirit. So when John says we "cannot sin"... he literally means that; we cannot sin from out of that part of us that is born of God and carries His seed.
There is a problem with suggesting that John is talking about "habitual sin" or "practicing sin". If we read it that way, then we would have to say that we do not "habitually sin" because we have God's seed and God does not "habitually sin". Are they saying that we can sin non-habitually because God sins non-habitually? It does not make sense. It suggests that we sin (non-habitually) because He sins (non-habitually)... and like Father like son. The whole point of the verse is that we follow the nature and ability of our Father because of His seed being in us. I submit to you that we cannot sin because God cannot sin. So this can only mean what it says; those who are of God and who have His seed cannot sin because we have inherited that sinless nature.
Thanks
Dids

I posted this on another internet forum and I am amazed at what I read on this forum and that forum. So far, those who otherwise love the late Hagin Sr. but who lean strongly towards conditional security disagree with Hagin's stance and those who love the late Hagin Sr. but lean strongly towards OSAS disagree with Hagin's position. Ironic that both sides dispute Hagin on this.


In my understanding of Scripture Hagin is right on. No one should ever featr losing their salvation but at the same time, no one should ever persist in sin and become careless. 1 John 3:9 should be a warning to both extreme OSAS and extreme conditional securitists:

No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [1] habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.


Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God. (God's Word)

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (NASB)

Those who are children of God do not continue to sin, for God's very nature is in them; and because God is their Father, they cannot continue to sin. (Good News)

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. (NIV)

​

I know that many Wesleyans (who are strongly "conditional security" advocates) do not agree with how the above passage is interpretted by some (see Adam Clark's commentary and John Wesley's notes on the Bible as two examples), but it does show that people can have a different perspective on this subject and both believe that they have a Scriptural basis for it.

At the same time, many OSAS people ask, "how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?" It has nothing to do with a particular number. It has more to do with ATTITUDE. Deliberate continuing and persisting in sin says much about a person's love or lack oflove for Christ.

 

[Suffolk Sean]

My understanding of 1 John 3:9 is somewhat different.
I understand it to be talking about the new man that is within the believer.
John states that people who are of God do not (cannot) sin because the seed (or nature of God) is in them. He is not talking about the total man (spirit soul body) because the flesh and soul are still capable of sin, and the only part of man that is actually "born of God" is the spirit. So when John says we "cannot sin"... he literally means that; we cannot sin from out of that part of us that is born of God and carries His seed.
There is a problem with suggesting that John is talking about "habitual sin" or "practicing sin". If we read it that way, then we would have to say that we do not "habitually sin" because we have God's seed and God does not "habitually sin". Are they saying that we can sin non-habitually because God sins non-habitually? It does not make sense. It suggests that we sin (non-habitually) because He sins (non-habitually)... and like Father like son. The whole point of the verse is that we follow the nature and ability of our Father because of His seed being in us. I submit to you that we cannot sin because God cannot sin. So this can only mean what it says; those who are of God and who have His seed cannot sin because we have inherited that sinless nature.
Thanks
Dids

Dids are you saying this:

Those that are not born of God, cannot help but sin.
Those that are born of God can sin, but also have the ability to not sin.

????

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Dids are you saying this:

Those that are not born of God, cannot help but sin.
Those that are born of God can sin, but also have the ability to not sin.

????

If an unregenerate man walks in the ability and inclinations of his unregenerate spirit, he will always sin. Of course if he listens to his flesh, he is going to sin.
If a regenerate man walks in the ability and inclinations of his regenerate spirit, He will not sin, he cannot sin. If the regenerate man walks in the flesh and ignores the inclinations of his regenerate spirit, then he will sin. So the difference is just that. We have His seed and if we walk according to the inclinations and abilities of His seed, we will not, cannot sin.
This, I think, is what John is saying in this passage.
Dids

 

[SavedByGrace3]

As far as fellowship and relationship....
I think this distinction helps rectify many problems with OSAS concept.
It is possible to be "saved" in the traditional sense and maintain your relationship while being "lost" in another when it comes to fellowship. There are several passages that deal with this. 1 John 5 and the two kinds of sin and two kinds of death:

1Jo 5:16-18
16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask; and He shall give life to him, to the ones not sinning unto death. There is a sin unto death. I do not say that he should ask about that.
17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not unto death.

Then there is the fornicating believer in 1 Cor 5 who stool to lose his spirit on the day of the Lord. The implication was that he was still saved, howbeit in great danger of losing his life at the hands of satan. This is a case where he maintained his relationship while being out of fellowship. The loss of fellowship would lead to the loss of table benefits such as healing, long life, a vital prayer life, freedom of praise and worship etc.. but most importantly, loss of the presence and annointing of God.

This works into the OSAS debate in that it is possible to eventually lose salvation if one rebells against the movig of God in their life to cease to sin. Else the man in 1 Cor 5 would never have been in any danger on the day of the Lord. But it is not a matter of a single sin... or even multiple sins causing one to lose etenal salvation, however the effects of this sin in their life can be catastrophic; even leading to death. In this case the relationship remains, but the benefits of fellowship around the table of God are gone.
dids

 

[Andrew]

Very interesting. I don't understand where you're coming from since it makes sense to my peanut that we can be in and out of fellowship but not in and out of relationship.

Can you elaborate on your position?

Jesus said that He will never leave us nor forsake us. The Holy Spirit remains in us even when we are sinning. It does not make sense if we are "out of fellowship" and yet these words are true.

Either we are in Christ and He is us or it is not so.
Either we have been translated from the Kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light or we are not.
There is no inbetween.

perhaps what you mean is that when we sin, we accept condemnation and guilt (which we shouldnt if we are established in righteousness), hence we go on a guilt trip and stop fellowshipping with God (eg stop praying) becos we think God is mad at us (another wrong belief).

So WE cut off fellowship with God when we sin becos of wrong beliefs. God DOES NOT cut off that fellowship with you. He is there as always to strengthen and encourage. He is after all, the Comforter. He is there to draw you back, to lift you out of the pit. If he is not there, you'll probably never recover from your time of sin.

As for 1 Jn 1:9, if that's for believers who sin, how many times do you want to be "cleansed of all unrighteousness"? This can happen only one time. One perfect sacrifice for sins forever. To use this verse to confess our sins and to be made righteous all over again, is to crucify Christ all over again and to continually offer sacrifices. In this respect, the blood of animals have more effect and potency than the blood of Christ. This is an insult to the work and blood of our Lord.

 

[Adammi]

That is exactly how I believe, yet I have never been able to put it into words.