Curses and Judgements

[Delvianna]

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 lists out a bunch of curses that would befall Israel if they were to not obey God and it says, "And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever" in verse 46.

Then you have verses like, "
Do not be overly wicked,
Nor be foolish:
Why should you die before your time?" From Ecclesiastes 7:17

And

Psalm 55:23-
"But You, O God, shall bring them down to the pit of destruction;
Bloodthirsty and deceitful men shall not live out half their days;
But I will trust in You."

So there is an impression that sin does lead to an early grave. But it can't be ALL sin, because clearly we see people who reject Christ are living in their 80's and onwards. My own grandfather lived to be 99 and wanted nothing to do with God his whole life. That's where we have this verse:

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that." 1 John 5:16

So then what sin would lead to an early life that is cut off? Also, theres something else I need to add to this which is concerning the last supper. Paul says,

"27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks]in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep (died). 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come." - 1 Corinthians 11:27-34

So people clearly died as a judgement for how they were taking this command. People literally got sick and died. So I guess my question, putting this all together is, that if someone dies early from sickness or disease, there is a possibility that it was rooted in judgement. Do you agree with that? And also, what would the sin that leads to death be? There has to be more than 1 since people died from being disrespectful (unworthy manner) when partaking in the last supper. Thoughts?

 

[johansen]

I tend to believe Jesus intended the command to eat and drink in remembrance of him as a philosophical way of life. the exact opposite of eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.

So as for what was going on in the days of Paul, i don't know, but we know enough about the supernatural worldview of the early church to say that they were far more mystical than we are these days and they were probably getting themselves into spiritual trouble by doing things not led of the Spirit.

so no, i don't believe communion is supposed to be a ritual involving a scrap of bread dipped in wine. but as for what exactly they were doing? only God knows.


as for sin leading to death, i do not say that anyone should pray for them.

in other words, stop wasting your time praying for people who have committed blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
The early church likely had a much more black and white interpretation of what defines unforgivable sin. remember, they were raised as jews who were taught that blasphemy against YHWH is unforgivable forever. Jesus when he carefully explains the Holy Spirit will speak only on the authority of the father.. the reason he had to go into such detail is because for a 1st century Jew to hear that they will receive a spirit, is to tell them they will become possessed.
Jesus then explains blaspheming the HS is unforgivable. he didn't need to tell them blaspheming YHWH is unforgivable because they already knew that.

most people past the age of 40 have probably heard someone curse God. its what Job's wife told him to do.
nothing has changed.

 

[johansen]

that if someone dies early from sickness or disease, there is a possibility that it was rooted in judgement.

yes, but that's between them and God.

its not our business to know what someone's judgement is, unless it affects us. like its our spouce, our kids, etc. our nation, if we are an elected representative.. (but not if we are not)

one thing that i'll never forget is my mom spontaneously asked my dad at the dinner table:
"do you ever feel like God has entered into judgement against you?"
and he replies:
"can we not talk about that please"

 

[Delvianna]

yes, but that's between them and God.

its not our business to know what someone's judgement is, unless it affects us. like its our spouce, our kids, etc. our nation, if we are an elected representative.. (but not if we are not)

one thing that i'll never forget is my mom spontaneously asked my dad at the dinner table:
"do you ever feel like God has entered into judgement against you?"
and he replies:
"can we not talk about that please"

Sure, but I'm trying to understand this purely by a theological stance which is why I posted in Christian Scriptures. While the ultimate outcome is up to God, the fact its mentioned in scripture in general, should at least be looked at. Specially if it means we are to not do something that could literally cause us to lead to an early life.

 

[johansen]

Sure, but I'm trying to understand this purely by a theological stance which is why I posted in Christian Scriptures. While the ultimate outcome is up to God, the fact its mentioned in scripture in general, should at least be looked at. Specially if it means we are to not do something that could literally cause us to lead to an early life.

you know what middle knowledge is?

God doesn't usually give it to us.

in revelation there is a verse that talks about people appointed to captivity, plague, famine, death, and those who are counted worthy to escape all things.
sometimes we get to know our fates on earth, most of the time we don't.
i know of someone who died of cancer 2 years after almost dying of cancer and had a near supernatural eradication of said cancer. it came back, the church was confused and offended.. found out later she knew God had extended her life 2 years.

 

[Delvianna]

you know what middle knowledge is?

God doesn't usually give it to us.

in revelation there is a verse that talks about people appointed to captivity, plague, famine, death, and those who are counted worthy to escape all things.
sometimes we get to know our fates on earth, most of the time we don't.
i know of someone who died of cancer 2 years after almost dying of cancer and had a near supernatural eradication of said cancer. it came back, the church was confused and offended.. found out later she knew God had extended her life 2 years.

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm honestly not interested in talking in generics. I'd really like to stick to the scripture examples I gave, or expound on that with other scripture. I would like scripture or specifics, for or against the premise I started. Since it sounds like you're in the middle of the road where this idea is up in the air for you, I don't think this fits with the point of my post and the discussion I'd like to have. I want scriptural discussions only (hence why I posted where I did). Pull apart the verses with proof as to how they either fit or don't fit. Back it up with greek or hebrew word definitions or proof of context arguments. I'd like a scriptural conversation instead of just basing your opinion that this isn't something we can know when the verses haven't been addressed properly. You gave me your theological interpretation but, no examples, no proof or no deeper discussion on it rather than just stating what your stance is.

 

[johansen]

He who informs against his friends to get a share of their property— the eyes of his children will fail.

how many times do we see this.. not happen?

scriptures are not absolute.

you want proof? of what exactly?

you need to have a need to know first.

 

[Delvianna]

He who informs against his friends to get a share of their property— the eyes of his children will fail.

how many times do we see this.. not happen?

scriptures are not absolute.

you want proof? of what exactly?

you need to have a need to know first.

That verse isn't literal as 2 verses later he says, "My eye has also grown dim because of sorrow,".

I want to have a discussion, literally for or against the topic in which I brought up but it seems you just want to make these finite statements that shut down any sort of discussion. Again, this is then not the thread for you. If you are willing to have a discussion, then let's stick to the premise and the point of the thread that I started, otherwise I am just going to stop replying to you.

 

[johansen]

That verse isn't literal

yes.. it is. his eyes are blurry from tears of grief. not from his own sins.

 

[Delvianna]

yes.. it is.

Okay, have a good day. This is literally going no where.

 

[Richard T]

Hi, It actually is a good question. As to whether someone could die or be sick from judgment seems absolutely yes.

Hebrews 12:13 (KJV)
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.

Sure some might say it is not literal. This however leaves no doubt to me.
1 Corinthians 5:4-5 (KJV)
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

In I John 5:16 that you quote, we are presented with a case where God gives instructions about the sin unto death. The scripture does not define it. Some say it is spiritual death based on Hebrews 6:4-6. Others may suggest it is like the immoral man in I Cor.

Here is "see" in the Greek.
"eídō. To see. This verb is obsolete in the pres. act. for which horáō <G3708>, to see with perception, is used. The tenses derived from the meaning of eídō form two families, one of which has exclusively the meaning of to see, the other that of to know." Complete Word Study Dictionary.

Few churches, parse this sin though. Some like bob yandian teach that one can repent from the sin unto death but there is a point where if in gross sin, and if it especially affects others, then that Christian might be a candidate. I think too that it differs from a Christian who struggles and tries to contain that sin, versus one that no longer cares. But it is rare I think. I have seen in Pentecostal circles where a rare case is prophesied to the person or a minister hears from God that they are not to pray for some individual.

I have to think of the judgment of Eli's house, and even King Saul are perhaps OT example. In both cases, here were priests or a King that would not step down or correct their negatives. As a result they died.

I know too that some Christians think they crossed the line etc. Most of that is condemnation from the devil. I also think that many just die of circumstances. Alot of those circumstances though can sometimes be avoided.
In the OKC bombing, the newspapers ran a story of one woman that God told to stay home that day. Bill Basansky in his book How to be led by the Spirit of God wrote that once God told him to not go to a particular hotel. The next day someone had died there from a gas leak.

So whether gross sin opens a door, or Satan finds some chink in a Christian's armor some deaths/injuries/diseases can be avoided or discovered in time to do something.

back to your more specific topic James links confessing sin to healing. I know that everytime I am sick I am introspective. I also engage in spiritual warfare there is anything serious. Fasting is one of those ways we can help.

I will say too that alot of issues begin in the mind. That when you hear or meditate on a negative thought one should pray or at least seek God. Murmers of car accidents, food poisoning, crime can come at us. Clarity from God can help but either change the behavior.

I put premature death of Christians in 5 categories
1. God's judgment, (extremely rare)
2. failure to fellowship that leaves chinks in the armor.
3. unknown reasons for sickness or premature death.
4. God using a death to test other's faith
5. Martyrs

I thnk too we need to look at this from the good side. That God will extend lives for honoring parents, obedience and for our overall walk. The cleanest man of God I ever knew was a neighbor. Never smoke, drank, church always, served as needed, worked hard in a factory. A real model citizen and husband. I visited him and his wife before he died. 102 years old. Though childless, I am certain that this couple found the grace and mercy of God in their lives.

 

[eleos1954]

Deuteronomy 28:15-68 lists out a bunch of curses that would befall Israel if they were to not obey God and it says, "And they shall be upon you for a sign and a wonder, and on your descendants forever" in verse 46.

Then you have verses like, "
Do not be overly wicked,
Nor be foolish:
Why should you die before your time?" From Ecclesiastes 7:17

And

Psalm 55:23-
"But You, O God, shall bring them down to the pit of destruction;
Bloodthirsty and deceitful men shall not live out half their days;
But I will trust in You."

So there is an impression that sin does lead to an early grave. But it can't be ALL sin, because clearly we see people who reject Christ are living in their 80's and onwards. My own grandfather lived to be 99 and wanted nothing to do with God his whole life. That's where we have this verse:

"If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that." 1 John 5:16

So then what sin would lead to an early life that is cut off? Also, theres something else I need to add to this which is concerning the last supper. Paul says,

"27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks]in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep (died). 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
33 Therefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. 34 But if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, lest you come together for judgment. And the rest I will set in order when I come." - 1 Corinthians 11:27-34

So people clearly died as a judgement for how they were taking this command. People literally got sick and died. So I guess my question, putting this all together is, that if someone dies early from sickness or disease, there is a possibility that it was rooted in judgement. Do you agree with that? And also, what would the sin that leads to death be? There has to be more than 1 since people died from being disrespectful (unworthy manner) when partaking in the last supper. Thoughts?

Sickness is not always a direct result of sin, but it is connected to sin because sickness and death entered the world after Adam and Eve's fall, corrupting God's original, healthy creation.

All believers commit sins that "do not lead to death," but the sin leading to death (2nd death) is characterized by a persistent, unrepentant apostasy.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven and is any sin that a person clings to by continually resisting the convicting power of the Holy Spirit. ie hardness of the heart.

It's about repentance (turning away from sin) ... as Paul says "we die daily" ... every day we battle against sin.

repentance takes place on Earth, while the Judgment takes place in heaven ... Christ judges ALL and we are not privy to His judgements ... only He knows the heart. We won't know who was really saved until we get to heaven.