Current ELCA Crisis

[AngelusSax]

I hope and pray for that split to occur. I was one of those conservative Lutherans who were dragged unwillingly into the merger that created the ELCA.

This saddens me. Acknowledging a split is one thing, but to hope for it, to hope for the Body of Christ to become even more divided, I find saddening.

Conservative brothers and sisters need their liberal counterparts, and vice versa. Only then can we be held accountable for our actions, statements, beliefs, etc. with any level of consistency.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

This saddens me. Acknowledging a split is one thing, but to hope for it, to hope for the Body of Christ to become even more divided, I find saddening.

Conservative brothers and sisters need their liberal counterparts, and vice versa. Only then can we be held accountable for our actions, statements, beliefs, etc. with any level of consistency.

I agree it would be a sad thing for the ELCA to lose its conservative voice. But I must admit I feel quite often as if they have regularly ignored that voice, such actions are what is causing so many to discuss splitting.

 

[Studeclunker]

This saddens me. Acknowledging a split is one thing, but to hope for it, to hope for the Body of Christ to become even more divided, I find saddening.

Conservative brothers and sisters need their liberal counterparts, and vice versa. Only then can we be held accountable for our actions, statements, beliefs, etc. with any level of consistency.

I agree it would be a sad thing for the ELCA to lose its conservative voice. But I must admit I feel quite often as if they have regularly ignored that voice, such actions are what is causing so many to discuss splitting.

Thank you Doulos, I am unable to say here what you just did.

Angelus, you are entirely correct inasmuch as praying for a split is a very bitter thing. However we are told by Scripture, "Put that evil one out from amoung you!" Ebeneezer Lutheran in San Fransisco is a poster child for what is wrong in the ELCA. When the Church went from one error to another, I couldn't any longer be part of it. Doing so would have been going seriously against my consience. I am not ashamed to admit that I wept bitterly when the decision had to be made. It still hurts. It was scant comfort that thousands of other ELCA members came to the same conclusion in the same month. Now, here I am in the same boat again. I should have joined WELS in the first place.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Ebeneezer Lutheran in San Fransisco is a poster child for what is wrong in the ELCA.
I should have joined WELS in the first place.

Who knows, maybe God has purpose for you to your brothers and sisters still?

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Conservative brothers and sisters need their liberal counterparts, and vice versa. Only then can we be held accountable for our actions, statements, beliefs, etc. with any level of consistency.

This is very true, and I actually think that this could be expanded to denominations within Lutheranism. As long as there is a strong dialogue between the ELCA and LCMS, both can only benefit. I'm not so sure the LCMS can label the ELCA as not an orthodox Lutheran church body with our recent turn to non-denominational/American Evangelical practice. Hypocritical eh?

 

[Studeclunker]

This is very true, and I actually think that this could be expanded to denominations within Lutheranism. As long as there is a strong dialogue between the ELCA and LCMS, both can only benefit. I'm not so sure the LCMS can label the ELCA as not an orthodox Lutheran church body with our recent turn to non-denominational/American Evangelical practice. Hypocritical eh?

Which is why I am now in the process of joining the Wisconsin Evengelical Lutheran Synod. They're not perfect either. However, WELS at least, aren't pretending to be something they're not. They're hard-headed, opinionated, convinced that they're right... hmmm... no wonder I feel so much at home.

Doulos, as the ELCA currently stands, I could never be a part of it. They've, as they say, jumped the pales. I literally wept, again, last year when I saw the pictures of parisioners at Ebeneezer Lutheran making Ashera dieties. A synod that permits such practices is one that I cannot in any way participate in. There are a great deal more problems, however, I don't want anyone to be offended by an ELCA bashing post. Nor, believe it or not, do I really enjoy criticizing ELCA. It's actually painful for me. Besides, I have to tread very carefully here, being a guest and all.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Which is why I am now in the process of joining the Wisconsin Evengelical Lutheran Synod. They're not perfect either. However, WELS at least, aren't pretending to be something they're not. They're hard-headed, opinionated, convinced that they're right... hmmm... no wonder I feel so much at home.

I'm hard headed and opinionated too, no WELS required.

 

[DaRev]

This is very true, and I actually think that this could be expanded to denominations within Lutheranism. As long as there is a strong dialogue between the ELCA and LCMS, both can only benefit. I'm not so sure the LCMS can label the ELCA as not an orthodox Lutheran church body with our recent turn to non-denominational/American Evangelical practice. Hypocritical eh?

"Practice" does not always equate with theology. I'd be interested in knowing your opinion on how the LCMS' theology is considered "unorthodox". We still follow the Biblical teachings regarding the Lord's Supper, the pastoral office, church fellowship, homosexuality, etc.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

"Practice" does not always equate with theology. I'd be interested in knowing your opinion on how the LCMS' theology is considered "unorthodox". We still follow the Biblical teachings regarding the Lord's Supper, the pastoral office, church fellowship, homosexuality, etc.

Substance and Style are the same for me. I don't think the LCMS is considered unorthodox. I just think that it's funny that the LCMS in convention would label the ELCA as unorthodox, and yet we have a healthy growing number of mega churches and non-denominational churches. When you replace the altar with a stage, you are crossing too many lines even if the theology is correct.

 

[DaRev]

Substance and Style are the same for me. I don't think the LCMS is considered unorthodox. I just think that it's funny that the LCMS in convention would label the ELCA as unorthodox, and yet we have a healthy growing number of mega churches and non-denominational churches. When you replace the altar with a stage, you are crossing too many lines even if the theology is correct.

Do you personally know of any LCMS churches that don't have altars?

Besides, "orthodoxy" refers to the theology in this case.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Do you personally know of any LCMS churches that don't have altars?

No I don't, do you? It's just a common side effect of the church growth movement, something that the ELCA has seemed to have not been affected as much as we have, or could an ELCA member enlighten me on this? Hrm...I'm wondering if Jefferson Hills in St. Louis has an altar...


Besides, "orthodoxy" refers to the theology in this case.
Which begs the question, if a church has orthodox theology, wouldn't they engage in orthodox worship?

 

[IowaLutheran]

No I don't, do you? It's just a common side effect of the church growth movement, something that the ELCA has seemed to have not been affected as much as we have, or could an ELCA member enlighten me on this?

The church growth movement has infected at least parts of the ELCA as well; as to how much when compared to LCMS, I cannot say. I'm not aware of an organized movement in the ELCA similar to ABLAZE in the LCMS, but certainly, there are ELCA megachurches which have bought the church growth movement hook, line, and sinker, including one right here in Iowa:

Lutheran Church of Hope - West Des Moines: Home

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Do you personally know of any LCMS churches that don't have altars?

Besides, "orthodoxy" refers to the theology in this case.

If memory serves correctly (but I could be wrong, it's been a couple years and I only visited it once) Hales Corners Lutheran in Hales Corners, WI.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

No I don't, do you? It's just a common side effect of the church growth movement, something that the ELCA has seemed to have not been affected as much as we have, or could an ELCA member enlighten me on this?

I'm not aware of any churches (since I make a point of avoiding churches that might not have altars), but even in blissful ignorance I would bet money that you could find a fair amount that lack altars.
pax

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

The church growth movement has infected at least parts of the ELCA as well; as to how much when compared to LCMS, I cannot say. I'm not aware of an organized movement in the ELCA similar to ABLAZE in the LCMS, but certainly, there are ELCA megachurches which have bought the church growth movement hook, line, and sinker, including one right here in Iowa:

Lutheran Church of Hope - West Des Moines: Home

I've driven by that church on the way to the Jordan Creek mall. It's huge, but not in a cathedral way, more of a big beautiful store. The only other Lutheran mega church I can think of in Iowa is Agnus Dei in Urbandale. I wonder what these churches would have to say about how earnestly our confessions defend the mass, or if the members would even know what a catechism is. I'm so stuck on style = substance, I know some Missouri Synod Lutherans are like this, are many in the ELCA this way? Update: I just checked their site and noticed 5 contemporary services to 1 traditional, and all 5 contemporaries are held in their worship center, and the 1 is held in the chapel. I'm a little confused as to why they would not hold their contemporary services in the chapel, nor the traditional in the worship center. Isn't this drawing a line in their worship saying one is appropriate for a house of God, and the other is entertainment to be held in a center? I'm sure it's the same with LCMS cg churches.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

If memory serves correctly (but I could be wrong, it's been a couple years and I only visited it once) Hales Corners Lutheran in Hales Corners, WI.

So it seems the title of this thread could be American Lutheranism's Crisis, or we are making a mountain out of a mole hill. Basically I just wish that I could travel anywhere on vacation and visit a Lutheran church that isn't just Lutheran in name, altars required* lol!

 

[DaRev]

No I don't

Didn't think so. It would serve you best if you would do a little homework before making statements such as this:

yet we have a healthy growing number of mega churches and non-denominational churches. When you replace the altar with a stage, you are crossing too many lines even if the theology is correct.

Which begs the question, if a church has orthodox theology, wouldn't they engage in orthodox worship?

I'd be interested in your definition of "orthodox worship". If the theology is correct, the worship would be correct, regardless of musical style.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

If memory serves correctly (but I could be wrong, it's been a couple years and I only visited it once) Hales Corners Lutheran in Hales Corners, WI.

I stand corrected, it appears that Hales Corners does have an altar. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

Didn't think so. It would serve you best if you would do a little homework before making statements such as this: I'd be interested in your definition of "orthodox worship". If the theology is correct, the worship would be correct, regardless of musical style.

Orthodox worship: "Falsely are our churches accused of abolishing the Mass; for the Mass is retained among us, and celebrated with the highest reverence. We do not abolish the Mass but religiously keep and defend it . . . we keep the traditional liturgical form ' ' ' In our churches Mass is celebrated every Sunday and on other holy days, when the sacrament is offered to those who wish for it after they have been examined and absolved (Article XXIV)".

Also CW is not just about musical style, even though that is horrible too. I'll do my homework if you stop defending CW.

 

[JoyforJESUS]

This saddens me. Acknowledging a split is one thing, but to hope for it, to hope for the Body of Christ to become even more divided, I find saddening.

Conservative brothers and sisters need their liberal counterparts, and vice versa. Only then can we be held accountable for our actions, statements, beliefs, etc. with any level of consistency.

Friends, I do hope that there will not be a split in the church, I have seen it a local levels and it is so difficult to deal with.

A church of 1000 will split, 200 will stay 200 will go the "new way" and 600 will likely not go to church for a long long time.

I hope that doesn't happen.