Curious

[dvd_holc]

First, the first mention one which ehad in hebrew is the nighttime and daytime functioning together as "ehad". Each have a seperate identity; no one would say nighttime is daytime and vice versa. Likewise, man and woman come together was spoken of as "ehad". No one one would say a man is a woman and vice versa. But both of these are each ehad which is also to say there is union between the identities yet still remaining distanctly one.

There is a huge purality to God. God is spoke of as the Father, eagle's wing, living water, fire, the divine glory, wind....From the begining of the bible, God was known as God the Father, then God as the Holy Wind that hovered over the waters, and God in the form of the spoken Word. Each off these are distinct, yet remain one. In fact, Elohim is plural yet spoke of a one and only God. Hear Ye of Israel, YHVH our Elohim, YHVH EHAD!

Also, there are many times that Jesus uses the same imagery that was God's to identify His own persona.

I am sorry that you do get to post in the christian only areas...It is the rules for CF...I would look into the "open" thread areas rules.

 

[BroGinder]

I concede and always have to the exhistance of the titles of Father Son and Holy Ghost. I have never denied their exhistance. Here is what I DO NOT believe about the Trinity so you can maybe determine if we ar eon the same page or not.

1- There are not Three thrones but 1.
2- There are not three seperate co equal, co powerful entities only one God whose name is Jesus.

Maybe this helps clear it a little more.

In Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Notice the word "name" is not Plural. The words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles he was telling them to do it in the NAME of them. "What so ever you do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus Christ..."

They all three were God but are not gods meaning there was still only one God.

 

[izarya]

Hear Ye of Israel, YHVH our Elohim, YHVH EHAD!

That is not Elohim meaning "gods" or "powers" which is indeed plural, that is Elohino meaning "Our God" which is singular.
In truth, the word Elohim is a reference to the entire Angelic Host; who, in times past, were considered "lesser gods".​

The prayer is called Shema Yisrael, and is found in Deuteronomy 6:4 for anyone that's interested.

 

[Criada]

I concede and always have to the exhistance of the titles of Father Son and Holy Ghost. I have never denied their exhistance. Here is what I DO NOT believe about the Trinity so you can maybe determine if we ar eon the same page or not.

1- There are not Three thrones but 1.
2- There are not three seperate co equal, co powerful entities only one God whose name is Jesus.

Maybe this helps clear it a little more.

In Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Notice the word "name" is not Plural. The words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles he was telling them to do it in the NAME of them. "What so ever you do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus Christ..."

They all three were God but are not gods meaning there was still only one God.

I am still very confused as to where we differ!
Surely this is semantics, not theology?
I would say I believe in the Trinity - yet I agree with both your above points.

One Throne -Revelation 4:2
At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.
Only one, yes. (Plus another 24 for the elders in the next verse, but...)

And I certainly do not believe in three seperate entities, but in one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Different aspects of the one eternal God. Which is what I always understood the Trinity to be.
So do I need to remove my Chistian icon?

 

[Catherineanne]

Why is it that one can deem if a person is a Christian or not. The word by definition means to be Christ Like. If I walk to be like Christ, then I am a Christian. Regardless of my belief in the Godhead or not. If I am wrong, then show me I am wrong and show me Love as I have you from the onset.

Never have I spoken a harsh word or condemmed. Infact just the opposite. I seek truth, how can one be a true apostle if one can not teach someone who views things diffrent. Why isolate me and others like me. Wouldnt Jesus want you to share your light with me and not put me in a place of outcast?

With much Love and respect.
Brother Ginder

It is not for me, or anyone else, to determine whether you are a Christian or not. Imo, it depends very much on whether God, when he looks at you, sees the reflection of his Son in your life.

Some people achieve this by being Christians. It is perfectly possible that others achieve it without ever knowing that this is who they are.

Therefore, it is not for anyone to judge. You know your own heart, and your relationship with the Deity, and with Christ, is your concern, and not anyone else's, unless you turn to them for advice or support.

You are perfectly right that Our Lord did not reject anyone, and that we who follow him should follow him in this also. But you are also right that this is a gift which escapes many of us.

Edit: Having read the rest of your thread, I would like to say that Christians only have one God; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This is called the Trinity, but it means one God. If that is the same as you believe, then I can't see any problem. It would really depend where you go from that point.

 

[BigNorsk]

I concede and always have to the exhistance of the titles of Father Son and Holy Ghost. I have never denied their exhistance. Here is what I DO NOT believe about the Trinity so you can maybe determine if we ar eon the same page or not.

1- There are not Three thrones but 1.
2- There are not three seperate co equal, co powerful entities only one God whose name is Jesus.

Maybe this helps clear it a little more.

In Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Notice the word "name" is not Plural. The words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles he was telling them to do it in the NAME of them. "What so ever you do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus Christ..."

They all three were God but are not gods meaning there was still only one God.

If the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is singular, then why don't oneness Pentacostals accept a baptism done in that "name"? Since you see it as one name, shouldn't doing a baptism in that one name be valid?

Marv

 

[BroGinder]

If the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" is singular, then why don't oneness Pentacostals accept a baptism done in that "name"? Since you see it as one name, shouldn't doing a baptism in that one name be valid?

Marv

Forgive me if I am slow, I often have to ask for clarification so please feel my heartbeat and know I am not intending to be spiteful. One name would be a vaild baptism. However, I do not see a name listed in your question.

I do see the mention of the titles, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost but I do not see a name. I am a father, and I am a son, and I have a spirit, but my name is Eric. Did I miss part of the statment?

 

[BigNorsk]

From Dictionary.com

1.a word or a combination of words by which a person, place, or thing, a body or class, or any object of thought is designated, called, or known. 2.mere designation, as distinguished from fact: He was a king in name only. 3.an appellation, title, or epithet, applied descriptively, in honor, abuse, etc. 4.a reputation of a particular kind given by common opinion: to protect one's good name. 5.a distinguished, famous, or great reputation; fame: to make a name for oneself. 6.a widely known or famous person; celebrity: She's a name in show business. 7.an unpleasant or derogatory appellation or expression: Don't call your brother names! Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. 8.a personal or family name as exercising influence or bringing distinction: With that name they can get a loan at any bank in town. 9.a body of persons grouped under one name, as a family or clan. 10.the verbal or other symbolic representation of a thing, event, property, relation, or concept. 11.(initial capital letter

) a symbol or vehicle of divinity: to take the Name in vain; the power of the Name. –verb (used with object) 12.to give a name to: to name a baby. 13.to accuse: He was named as the thief. 14.to call by an epithet: They named her speedy. 15.to identify, specify, or mention by name: Three persons were named in the report. 16.to designate for some duty or office; nominate or appoint: I have named you for the position. 17.to specify; suggest: Name a price. 18.to give the name of: Can you name the capital of Ohio? 19.to speak of. 20.British. (in the House of Commons) to cite (a member) for contempt. –adjective 21.famous; widely known: a name author. 22.designed for or carrying a name. 23.giving its name or title to a collection or anthology containing it: the name piece. —Idioms 24.by name, a.personally; individually: She was always careful to address every employee by name. b.not personally; by repute: I know him by name only. 25.call names, to scold or speak abusively of or to a person: Better not to call names unless one is larger and considerably stronger than one's adversary. 26.in the name of, a.with appeal to: In the name of mercy, stop that screaming! b.by the authority of: Open, in the name of the law! c.on behalf of: to purchase something in the name of another. d.under the name or possession of: money deposited in the name of a son. e.under the designation or excuse of: murder in the name of justice. 27.name names, to specify people by name, esp. those who have been accomplices in a misdeed: The witness in the bribery investigation threatened to name names. 28.to one's name, in one's possession: I haven't a penny to my name.


As you can see, you use of name as only pertaining to your personal given name is way too narrow. If you call your Father, Father, that is a name. It is your name for your Father.

So there are three names in the passage, not one name. And your use of the English to say it is one name is also not standard.


The passage could be written "in the name of the Father, and in the name of the Son, and in the name of the Holy Spirit" and be the same as the original.


To take it as there is only one name is to stretch language in order to take the more difficult meaning.


Maybe you should now tell all those people who have said such nice things what their status is as far as you are concerned if they were baptised in the "name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"? Are they saved?

Marv

 

[BroGinder]

Title:

a : an appellation of dignity, honor, distinction, or preeminence attached to a person or family by virtue of rank, office, precedent, privilege, attainment, or lands b : a person holding a title especially of nobility

I am not a religious person, the problem with the Church today is that we have to much religion and not enough relationship. Its not about rules its about Love. Its about his grace and his mercy. Its not about what I think it says or what you think it says, but about what he meant when he had man pen it down.

I am not the judge of another mans salvation:
Phil 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

As far as the name goes. Did Peter miss the boat in Acts, when he told the to Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

Or what was Paul saying here:
Col 3:17
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

God is not the author of confusion. I am just seeking knowledge from his Word. If he posted three titles and using a singular "name", then the inspired Word of God says " Whatsoever ye do....do in the name of the Lord Jesus" Along with Peters sermon on the day of Pentecost, saying In the name of Jesus Christ.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
KJV

If there is only "1" baptism what shall we do?

As far as me narrowing a definition. I do not do so in a manner that causes anyone to feel abused. I am bringing what I feel is truth. If I am not bringing truth, I am here to gain truth for my mind is an open book to God and I seek his wisdom.

Matt 7:14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
KJV

I beseech you Brother, feel my heart beat as I am truly seeking Jesus in all I do. I desire to walk in the FULLNESS of truth as I know you do as well. Let us reason together here as we have so far to coem to a place we are in one accord.

God Bless

 

[BroGinder]

So do I need to remove my Chistian icon?

No which was my opening point. I am told I am not a Christian by the admins, and I am only seeking to understand why.

 

[tapero]

Why is it that one can deem if a person is a Christian or not. The word by definition means to be Christ Like. If I walk to be like Christ, then I am a Christian. Regardless of my belief in the Godhead or not. If I am wrong, then show me I am wrong and show me Love as I have you from the onset.

Never have I spoken a harsh word or condemmed. Infact just the opposite. I seek truth, how can one be a true apostle if one can not teach someone who views things diffrent. Why isolate me and others like me. Wouldnt Jesus want you to share your light with me and not put me in a place of outcast?

With much Love and respect.
Brother Ginder

Hi,

On your first part, I answered some at the very bottom of this page. No one can deem you not a Christian. Well, people can (of course - many like name calling), but CF does not. Please see below (very bottom of post) regarding this issue.

Here is the first place I could find where Christian is used.

The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

If I walk to be like Christ, then I am a Christian.

Brother, I am in no way implying anything to you personally in this reply to the above quote. Please keep that in mind as you read.

Anyone can walk like Christ and yet not believe in Christ as God, or as savior, or that he died for our sins, and was resurrected.

In fact, basically all religions of the world, except Christianity is based on doing good works to obtain salvation. (bear in mind there are legalistic christian churches who are preaching lies about this.)

We know this is not true of Christianity. We do good works, as Christians, but so do non Christians do good works. It never saved in the Old Testament and never brought salvation in the new testament or the Old Testament. It's always been salvation is by faith in God.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Ok, first it is commonly misunderstood that the gift of God refers to faith. That is not accurate. The gift is salvation. Faith is on our part to believe. And the 'not from yourselves' is clearly pointing that works (good works) can not save one self - else we would boast!

In regards to not believing there is a trinity, as another poster mentioned, it is not required to believe in the trinity to be saved. However, it is a requirement of CF to be a nicene-agreeing Christian to have an icon where members can post in all forums.


Brother, you are not an outcast, but for the purposes or posting in CF forums, they needed to have guidelines.

Mainstream Christianity believes in the trinity. Problem is - many of us don't get down to these other forums enough to love and support the many here.

As it is with those who believe that there is a trinity, there is confusion; if someone further came along and said there is no trinity it would cause more confusion. They had to make some type of guidelines for posting.

There are many Christians, not holding a Christian icon because they don't believe the trinity exists.

Any time you wish to as stated by another, you can contact a mod who is online (green light next to name in staff on blue bar) and ask them to make an [open] thread for you. I would pm a mod over that particular forum.

They are fellowship only and no debating. So you can clearly ask where ever you like in any Christian only forum to have an [open] thread so you can ask questions.

I concede and always have to the exhistance of the titles of Father Son and Holy Ghost. I have never denied their exhistance. Here is what I DO NOT believe about the Trinity so you can maybe determine if we ar eon the same page or not.

1- There are not Three thrones but 1.
2- There are not three seperate co equal, co powerful entities only one God whose name is Jesus.

Maybe this helps clear it a little more.

In Matthew 28:19 "Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Notice the word "name" is not Plural. The words Father, Son and Holy Ghost are titles he was telling them to do it in the NAME of them. "What so ever you do in word or deed do in the name of Jesus Christ..."

They all three were God but are not gods meaning there was still only one God.

Throne

I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing on his right and on his left.

This is what the LORD says: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where is the house you will build for me? Where will my resting place be? Has not my hand made all these things, and so they came into being?" declares the LORD.

At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD.

You, O LORD, reign forever; your throne endures from generation to generation.

Note above quote: Jesus is God; so while this is in the OT (though Jesus is manifested in the OT), there is One God.

New Testament

But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne;

Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus is the Son of Man in this verse; above/below quote.

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,

High Priest is Jesus, who it is written of: always lives to intercede for us.

To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.

Interesting, Jesus is seated (enthroned) at the right hand of the Father, and in this verse is sitting with the Father on His throne.

At once I was in the Spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it.

Above appears to be only one throne.

6Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

Jesus, of course is the Lamb.

So, interesting bits on the throne(s)? in the bible.
______________________________________________


you wrote:

2- There are not three seperate co equal, co powerful entities only one God whose name is Jesus.

The Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3 records that "Peter said, 'Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?" Then the 4th verse said, "Acts 5:4 "Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." If he lied to the Holy Spirit, and this is described as lying to God, then, the Holy Spirit is God.

The Father is God, and Jesus is God.
The Holy Spirit is God. One God in three persons.
_____________________________________________

Title:

a : an appellation of dignity, honor, distinction, or preeminence attached to a person or family by virtue of rank, office, precedent, privilege, attainment, or lands b : a person holding a title especially of nobility

I am not a religious person, the problem with the Church today is that we have to much religion and not enough relationship. Its not about rules its about Love. Its about his grace and his mercy. Its not about what I think it says or what you think it says, but about what he meant when he had man pen it down.

I am not the judge of another mans salvation:
Phil 2:12-13
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
KJV

As far as the name goes. Did Peter miss the boat in Acts, when he told the to Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

Or what was Paul saying here:
Col 3:17
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

God is not the author of confusion. I am just seeking knowledge from his Word. If he posted three titles and using a singular "name", then the inspired Word of God says " Whatsoever ye do....do in the name of the Lord Jesus" Along with Peters sermon on the day of Pentecost, saying In the name of Jesus Christ.

Eph 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
KJV

If there is only "1" baptism what shall we do?

As far as me narrowing a definition. I do not do so in a manner that causes anyone to feel abused. I am bringing what I feel is truth. If I am not bringing truth, I am here to gain truth for my mind is an open book to God and I seek his wisdom.

Matt 7:14
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
KJV

I beseech you Brother, feel my heart beat as I am truly seeking Jesus in all I do. I desire to walk in the FULLNESS of truth as I know you do as well. Let us reason together here as we have so far to coem to a place we are in one accord.

God Bless

you wrote:

Its not about rules its about Love. Its about his grace and his mercy. Its not about what I think it says or what you think it says, but about what he meant when he had man pen it down.

I agree

you wrote:

As far as the name goes. Did Peter miss the boat in Acts, when he told the to Repent, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin.

Or what was Paul saying here:
Col 3:17
17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Ok, need to take all scripture in the context of the whole bible, sometimes just in context of the nt only, but must be in whole context of the nt if so done. However, most cases need context of ot and nt to get at the deeper things.

There is only one baptism. It's the baptism of the Holy Spirit who indwells us when we believe.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

Just to note, want to show that this verse shows that once saved always saved, and can never lose salvation. Redemption in verse about means salvation.

13For we were all baptized by[c] one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Further we are told to be baptised (full immersion or however one believes), it is a command, and does not bring salvation. It is a work. It does not save.

We are also told to keep the Lord's Supper, again, it does not save.

Also, can explain more, about the dispensations in the NewTestament which are causing confusion.

______________________________________________

No which was my opening point. I am told I am not a Christian by the admins, and I am only seeking to understand why.

Hi, I would think that an admin would have meant to say that you may not be a nicence creed agreeing Christian. This doesn't mean you are not a Christian in the site of CF. However, if one does not agree to the Nicene Creed they can not hold a Christian only icon.

Blessings,
tapero

 

[BroGinder]

I appreciate your willingness to respond with much more grace than others have in the past, though I am not bitter, I do have an issue with the nicene creed. It was written around 325 AD. So I reckon I will continue just posting here in the NON-CHristian asking question pool.

Though I am a Christian, believeing as Jesus taught not a group of men who got together and called a truce to the killing of Christians if they would embrace this creed.

I respect you and pray for you as I hope you pray for me. I Love you and so does our mighty creator, Jesus.

Once agian, thank you for your time as I know it is valuable.

Love in Christ,
Eric Ginder

 

[tapero]

I appreciate your willingness to respond with much more grace than others have in the past, though I am not bitter, I do have an issue with the nicene creed. It was written around 325 AD. So I reckon I will continue just posting here in the NON-CHristian asking question pool.

Though I am a Christian, believeing as Jesus taught not a group of men who got together and called a truce to the killing of Christians if they would embrace this creed.

I respect you and pray for you as I hope you pray for me. I Love you and so does our mighty creator, Jesus.

Once agian, thank you for your time as I know it is valuable.

Love in Christ,
Eric Ginder

I hear you. I figure using the Nicene Creed it all they can do to have the guidelines in place.

It is also the main tenants of mainstream Christianity, and I also go only by what Jesus teaches as well.

Just want you to know brother the following, so if anybody does this to you; report them. So, if in a post you state you are Christian and someone replies you are not a Christian, just hit report and explain. You deserve not to be harrassed in any way.

Rule 2.1 No flaming; reads in part:

Stating or implying that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian.

Thank you for your love brother and your respect and prayers. Praying for you also, and I love and respect you too.

Blessings,
tapero