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Curious- How do you understand The trinity?

Khalliqa

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Wondering how do Christians of varying denominations approach or not approach the concept of the trinity? How do you rectify Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit being "one" or signs of the other or manifestations of one? Also how do you define each? Or do you reject it altogether? And on what basis (reason or biblical) do you reject or accept and understand it?
 

JD16

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I was taught in Sunday school to think of it like water,....steam, water at room temperature and ice,.....3 different state but essentially the same substance,....no idea if that is how its suppose to be tho....
 
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Brotherly Spirit

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I think of it as a union of three parts comprising the whole. Like head, body, and spirit or dad, mom, and child. Each part has it's unique role for the purpose of the whole. Imagine a headless body or man-less marriage, it would be difficult for either to fulfill it's purpose.
 
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I was taught in Sunday school to think of it like water,....steam, water at room temperature and ice,.....3 different state but essentially the same substance,....no idea if that is how its suppose to be tho....
Sorry, that is Modalism.

According to the Athanasian Creed ...

This is the true Christian faith, that we worship one God in three Persons and three Persons in one God without confusing the Persons or dividing the divine substance.

For the Father is one Person, the Son is another, and the Holy Spirit is still another, but there is one Godhead of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, equal in glory and coequal in majesty.

What the Father is, that is the Son and that is the Holy Spirit: the Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated; the Father is unlimited, the Son is unlimited, the Holy Spirit is unlimited; the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal; and yet They are not three Eternals but one Eternal, just as there are not Three Who are uncreated and Who are unlimited, but there is One who is uncreated and unlimited.

Likewise the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God.

So the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord, and yet there are not three Lords but one Lord.

For just as we are compelled by Christian truth to acknowledge each Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so we are forbidden by the Christian religion to say that there are three Gods or three Lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten by anybody.

The Son was not made nor created, but was begotten by the Father.

The Holy Spirit was not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father and not three Fathers, one Son and not three Sons, one Holy Spirit and not three Holy Spirits.

And among these three Persons none is before or after another, none is greater or less than another, but all three Persons are coequal and coeternal, and accordingly, as has been stated above, three Persons are to be worshiped in one Godhead and one God is to be worshiped in three Persons.

Whoever wishes to be saved must think thus about the Trinity.

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that one faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became man, for this is the right faith, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is at once God and man:

He is God, begotten before the ages of the substance of the Father, and He is man, born in the world of the substance of His mother, perfect God and perfect man, with reasonable and soul and human flesh, equal to the Father with respect to His Godhead and inferior to the Father with respect to His manhood.

Although He is God and man, He is not two Christs but one Christ: one, that is to say, not by changing the Godhead into flesh, but by taking on the humanity into God, one, indeed, not by confusion of substance but by unity in one Person.

For just as the reasonable soul and the flesh are one man, so God and man are one Christ, Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose from the dead, ascended into heaven, is seated on the right hand of the Father, whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Wondering how do Christians of varying denominations approach or not approach the concept of the trinity? How do you rectify Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit being "one" or signs of the other or manifestations of one? Also how do you define each? Or do you reject it altogether? And on what basis (reason or biblical) do you reject or accept and understand it?

When it comes to the official position of mainstream Christian churches there is a pretty unanimous and universal consent, the only real difference will come when we get to the matter of the Filioque controversy: the Western Churches embrace the Filioque clause of the Nicene Creed, the Eastern Churches reject the Filioque clause--if you're unfamiliar I'll get back to it later in this post.

We speak of there being three Hypostases (translated either as "Persons" or "Subsistences" in English) and one Ousia (Essence, Being, or Nature).

The concept of ousia refers to being, thing-ness; for example a tree's tree-ness, or a rock's rock-ness. What a thing is.

The concept of hypostasis is a bit more complicated as while its use in Christian theology is more well defined, it can mean a lot of things depending on context, for example it could simply refer to the sediment that falls to the bottom of a container of standing liquid, or it would be used basically as a synonym for ousia in a philosophical context. As a compound word it is the union of hypo (under) and stasis (to stand), a strictly literal translation might be "understanding"; in Christian theological use it refers to the concrete realness of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Which is to say: the Father is a concrete, real, actual Someone; the Son is a concrete, real, actual Someone; and the Holy Spirit is a concrete, real, actual Someone.

What this means is that the terms "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" do not refer to a merely perceived distinction (like an actor putting on different masks in a Greek drama, or and individual person taking on different roles in relationship to different people, e.g. a man being a father, son, and husband depending on to whom he relates) but actual distinction: the Father is Father of and to the Son, the Son is Son of and to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Father and Son. Thus there is actual distinction in the Hypostases, and thus actual relationship between the Three.

We then assert that the Three are One, because there is one Ousia, one Being. In the most traditional way of putting it:

The Father is God in and of Himself, the Son is begotten of the Father from all eternity, He is therefore God of and from the Father; we say the Son is "homoousios" with the Father (meaning, "of the same Being"); and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father [and the Son] (filioque) from all eternity, and thus the Spirit is of the same Being as Father and Son. We do not have three instances of the Divine Being, but one, which belongs uniquely to the Father but of which the Son and the Spirit share by their eternal relationship to and from the Father. That is to say, the Son is God because the Father is God. This is not the same sort of thing as saying that I am a human being because my father is a human being; because I am an entirely different human being than my father, we are two completely different instances of "human being"--the Father and Son are instead the same Divine Being, the same God, without separateness, without division. We say they are distinct but not separate; indeed they cannot be separate because they are indivisibly One.

As noted, the one major point of disagreement exists with the question of the Filioque, a word added to the Latin translation of the Nicene Creed in the latter centuries of the first millennium; the addition of this word to the Nicene Creed and the bishop of Rome claiming the right to add it without the consensus of the entire Church did not sit well with the Eastern Church and her bishops who refused the use of the Filioque clause. This resulted in the bishop of Rome sending a bull of excommunication to the bishop of Constantinople in the year 1054, which effectively began the Great Schism resulting in the Roman Catholic Church in the West and the Eastern Orthodox Church in the East. The word filioque is Latin for "and the Son".

That said, Western and Eastern Christians have largely been able to get along much better in recent years and try and build dialogue over this issue, with a lot of work being done to find a middle ground, to see if there is an actual theological disagreement, or if we are largely just having an issue of semantics. To that end many feel that "through the Son" may be the best way to understand the filioque in such a way as to find common ground with the East. But this is a highly complex thousand year+ debate that has been going on in Christianity and can't be fully explored here.

Otherwise, since all mainstream Christian churches, regardless of denomination or tradition, embrace the Nicene Creed and the unanimous teachings of the early fathers as it pertains to this subject.

Individual Christian opinion may differ, largely depending on how well they were taught, if they were taught, and so forth. One problem I've often noticed (including myself when I was younger) was how poorly taught the doctrine of the Trinity is, resulting in many wrong descriptions, some being actually heretical.

If you want the most official statements available, then the Nicene Creed is the best in that regard; in the West we also have another creed known as the Quicumque Vult or Athanasian Creed which is fairly exhaustive on the matter. Though one of my favorite statements actually comes from a rather obscure local Spanish synod from the 7th century. The 11th Council of Toledo, dealing with the recent conversion of the Visigoths in Spain from Arianism to orthodox Christianity, put forward a rather robust confession of faith which you can find online here:

Toledo-11

Outside of some of the great ancient fathers of the Church such as St. Athanasius or St. Augustine, there is a small work by Catholic theologian Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar titled Credo which is a simply wonderful set of meditations on the Apostles' Creed that does a fantastic job also dealing with Trinitarian thought.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Tangible

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Can you give a summary please? Some of us -me -can't access video during the day.
Best to wait until later when you can watch the video. I wouldn't be able to do it justice. It's satire, and pretty funny in spots, but with a serious message.
 
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Greg J.

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Wondering how do Christians of varying denominations approach or not approach the concept of the trinity? How do you rectify Jesus and God and the Holy Spirit being "one" or signs of the other or manifestations of one? Also how do you define each? Or do you reject it altogether? And on what basis (reason or biblical) do you reject or accept and understand it?
I think the best hope of an understanding of it (without devoting your life to it) is to read the verses where God is One and where He appears to be three and see how you can reconcile them in your mind. I haven't done such an extensive study, but as a result of pondering the matter, I decided I like how the authors of various creeds chose to express it, such as One God in three Persons. I recognize the difficulty in choosing words to express it without violating Scripture. It is not dissimilar to seeing God as One who expresses himself with three roles. Or as three who are in perfect and complete unity, except that he is One, not three.

If your inner understanding is that three can't be one, then your current handle on it is probably good. :p
 
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JackRT

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For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Sophia / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

Yes, I know that this is essentially the modalism heresy but it is the only explanation I have ever seen that makes sense to me.
 
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JD16

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For many years I have struggled to understand the doctrine of the trinity. To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Sophia / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

Yes, I know that this is essentially the modalism heresy but it is the only explanation I have ever seen that makes sense to me.

Does that coincide with what I mention in post #2? Or is that a different concept altogether?
 
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JackRT

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Does that coincide with what I mention in post #2? Or is that a different concept altogether?

Yes, I believe that would be modalism as well.
 
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Greg J.

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... To say it is a mystery that we are not expected to comprehend simply doesn't cut it for me. ...
Well, that's good. Without this attribute we wouldn't learn anything that isn't obvious. However, the path to knowing the truth and God requires we accept "I don't know" and to keep seeking God for more instead of accepting something that contradicts Scripture. There is an unlimited amount that can be learned about what it means that God has the nature of relationship within himself, but it begins with accepting the truth of what God has already said and putting into practice.

It may be that what I said in the first sentence of my previous post would help. It would at least send you in the direction of everyone else that as tried to study the matter.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Does that coincide with what I mention in post #2? Or is that a different concept altogether?

The analogy you gave in post #2 does correspond to Sabellianism, also known as Modalism.

Sabellianism - Wikipedia

Sabellius, Noetus, and other Modalist teachers believed that God was a single Ousia (Being) and Hypostasis (Subsistence) who put on different prosopa (faces or masks, the word is often rendered as "person" but refers to the masks worn by an actor in a Greek drama). Essentially the "three-ness" is merely subjective, it's how we relate to God; it's not real. So when Jesus prays to the Father it is not two distinct Hypostases or Someones in dialogue, it is, in some sense, just puppet theater.

Historic, orthodox Christianity (Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant) regard Sabellianism as heresy because it denies real relationality in God, and turns the relationship between the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit into some kind of fakery--it's not real, it doesn't actually happen.

In the West it has also been known as Patripassionism, because it, in effect, says the Father is the one who suffers on the cross (in Jesus).

Sabellianism was considered the chief theological controversy of the 3rd century until Arianism came along in the 4th. It's also worth noting that Arius was actually trying to combat Sabellianism with his theology; in that sense we can view Sabellianism and Arianism as two extremes on a spectrum: the orthodox teaching which came out of the first two Ecumenical Councils, the Creeds they produced, and the writings of the Fathers of the period is chiefly to refute Arianism but also exists to refute Sabellianism. Trinitarianism, in this sense, is the result of negating these two extremes. This is why one often hears that Christian theology is, historically, apophatic or negative theology: theology by apophasis or negation, saying what God is not rather than saying what God is. The Trinitarian formula is by negating those views which were regarded as errant, heretical, etc.

The doctrine of the Trinity doesn't exist to try and comprehend or fully explain God; it exists to safeguard the integrity of the Christian confession about God, and Christ's relationship to God, "neither confusing the Persons (Hypostases), nor dividing the Substance" (Athanasian Creed)

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Khalliqa

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Say that I'm just a very moderately educated person... would I need to know the etymology of words... the different philosophies about the trinity etc before I could grasp the concept?

Is there a single understanding by which all, the majority or most denominations agree is "correct"?

I will admit all of this can be a bit confusing..
 
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Say that I'm just a very moderately educated person... would I need to know the etymology of words... the different philosophies about the trinity etc before I could grasp the concept?

Is there a single understanding by which all, the majority or most denominations agree is "correct"?

I will admit all of this can be a bit confusing..
The Trinity is to be confessed, not understood. It doesn't make sense, but it is true.

The definitive statement about the Holy Trinity is the Athanasian Creed. It is the standard of orthodoxy as pertaining to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.
 
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JackRT

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Say that I'm just a very moderately educated person... would I need to know the etymology of words... the different philosophies about the trinity etc before I could grasp the concept?

Is there a single understanding by which all, the majority or most denominations agree is "correct"?

I will admit all of this can be a bit confusing..

I can well understand your confusion. I am a very well educated person and even I find it very problematic. You must understand that it is a concept of a third and fourth century Greek speaking gentile world. The classical understanding (the Athanasian Creed) is incomprehensible if you don't understand Greek philosophy and only slightly easier if you do.

Some time ago I discovered that in the original formulation of the trinity, the word in Greek which we traditionally have interpreted to mean "persons", as in "three persons in one God" is actually the same word used to designate the mask worn by actors in Greco-Roman theater. We cannot call this a "person" but we can certainly call it a "persona". This insight has put a totally new spin on the entire concept for me. We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus. In other words, trinity is not a description of God but is, rather, a description of the human experience of God in the language of fourth century Greek speaking Christianity. We are not limited to just these three. Any persona that promotes our understanding of and our relationship to God is completely acceptable. God could be mother as well as father. God could be Wisdom / Sophia / Word / Allah / Krishna / Manitou. God's possibilities are endless. These are merely our human images of God. God is, as always, ONE.

This, of course, is the modalist heresy but I am content with it.
 
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We finite creatures cannot possibly hope to describe our transcendent God, but we can speak of the modes or roles or personae that assist our understanding. God as creator/father, God as spirit/sustainer, and the glimpse of God we obtain in the life and teaching of Jesus.
This is Modalism, or Sabellianism, a heresy condemned by the first council in Constantinople in 381.
 
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JackRT

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This is Modalism, or Sabellianism, a heresy condemned by the first council in Constantinople in 381.

Did you read down to the last sentence in my post? The Greeks had a tremendous fascination for logic and philosophy and had a great tendency to analyze the heck out of everything often with next to no evidence to go on. The theory of the Trinity is a perfect example. It is simply the way some Christians made sense of God at a certain time and place in history. God, of course, is completely transcendent and incomprehensible to human beings so it makes sort of sense that they would invent an incomprehensible doctrine to make sense of God. I do not consider it to be an essential belief in any way. In fact, I regard it as an unnecessary distraction to one who sincerely seeks God.
 
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