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curious Calvinist (really!!)

BeforeThereWas

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rosiecotton said:
Wow, thanks for all the info on the tithe. I printed it out so I could read it more closely and look up all the scriptures posted too.

Here's another section of scripture you can study:

Gal 5:1-6
1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (This should bring tithe teachers to a screeching halt, but they continue as if this wasn't in their Bibles.)
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

The requirement to tithe is simply another aspect of the Law, like circumcision, that serves only to place people back under the curse of the Law. These people also need to read:

Gal 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Gospel sets us free, where the requirements of the Law enslave those who place themselves under its yoke.

BTW
 
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mortsmune

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The Reformed view of the sacraments & the preaching of the Word is that such things are done in the church, by one called to preach.
I should say first of all that technically I am not a "home church" person currently, although the congregation of which I am currently a part has home meetings once a week. I also was once the leader of a home church and believe in the concept that the church is not a building and that meeting in homes is a good and biblical idea.

I could not in the confines of this forum adequately express my view of the sacraments, but I will say that I believe the true significance of the Lord's Supper has been mostly lost to virtually all Christians today. I will also say that I do not see a biblical mandate for the sacraments to be administered by "one called to preach," seeing as all of us are "called to preach." In the Bible "preaching" (kerusso) is proclaiming the Gospel to the lost, which is the calling of all believers. Pastors, on the other hand, are called to teach and to equip the saints for doing the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:11-12).

I believe that baptism and the Lord's Supper may be administered by any true believer. In fact, the true Lord's Supper is not something that can even be "administered" by a person. It is something that each member of the assembly is to experience and participate in.
 
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BeforeThereWas

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mortsmune said:
I will also say that I do not see a biblical mandate for the sacraments to be administered by "one called to preach," seeing as all of us are "called to preach." In the Bible "preaching" (kerusso) is proclaiming the Gospel to the lost, which is the calling of all believers. Pastors, on the other hand, are called to teach and to equip the saints for doing the work of the ministry (Eph. 4:11-12).

This is actually the call of all mature believers, especially the elders (plural), not just a singular "pastor". It's somewhat astounding that so many people seem to think that the term "pastor" appears upon almost every other page of the NT. Tradition dictates that this one man is thrust into the limelight in the place of Christ Jesus Himself. It's the tradition of the "pastor's" artistotilian rhetoric that is the central focus and purpose for gathering together under the headship of organized religion. The word of God gives not even one example of such nonsense. Most people even assume that the central purpose behind the gathering of believers is for corporate worship, as if that were the very apex of our corporate lives in a fallen world. This couldn't be further from the truth.

I believe that baptism and the Lord's Supper may be administered by any true believer.

Very true indeed.

In fact, the true Lord's Supper is not something that can even be "administered" by a person. It is something that each member of the assembly is to experience and participate in.

Ah, but if all these man-made traditions fell by the wayside, then all the various systems of organized religion would loose much of their power and influence they exercise over their followers. As long as people continue to place an inordinate value upon organized religion, as if it were the highest expression of biblical continuity, these strange superstitions (which enjoy no biblical support) will continue to be drilled into the heads of all its follwers and supporters so long as its foundation of money remains.

As an aside, most organizations have a purpose and an objective, and to achieve these objectives, there needs to be procedures and resources. The resources would include money, men and machinery. In the case of organized religion, the men and machinery combine in the form of missionaries. When we have too many men for the same purpose, a hierarchy sets in, and when we have a hierarchy, there would naturally be division of work and responsibilities. So, as Men of God empower themselves with power and money, all the problems associated with an organization also find their way into the system.

Most organizations are effective, and depending upon the will and morale of the people involved, it will deliver the results. If we bother to look around, we find that the best organizations are those with the most effective people on top. What needs to be understood here is that effectiveness and efficiency have nothing much to do with being virtuous. In fact, we find this true most of the time, i.e. the virtuous ones are never the most effective ones. It's this simple fact that makes it dangerous for us to shroud religion with any organizational clothing.

Religion, as a process, has more to do with the human mind than body. Though human beings can be highly deceptive at times in suppressing their thoughts, it's essentially the way one thinks that comes out as action. Religions and true religious leaders have always motivated us to indulge only in noble thoughts and virtuous actions. It's therefore highly imperative that such religious processes always led by virtuous leaders rather than efficient and effective ones. The inevitability of any organizational approach is exactly the opposite of this essential criterion. The moment we combine religion with organization, the latter aspect starts dominating, and ‘unwanted’ elements will always come to the top. All the shameful news (pedophilia, etc.) we hear about within organized religions these days are basically reflections of this unholy amalgamation.

BTW
 
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mortsmune

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There is a great deal of truth to what you say. However, in the midst of this rather cynical indictment of organized religion (and I am not disagreeing with you here), do you have any positive suggestions for alternative possiblities for the many people who desire a purer and more biblical and "virtuous" experience of worship and ministry in the Body of Christ? I would certainly be interested to know your thoughts in that regard.
 
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BeforeThereWas

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mortsmune said:
There is a great deal of truth to what you say. However, in the midst of this rather cynical indictment of organized religion (and I am not disagreeing with you here), do you have any positive suggestions for alternative possiblities for the many people who desire a purer and more biblical and "virtuous" experience of worship and ministry in the Body of Christ? I would certainly be interested to know your thoughts in that regard.

That's a very good question. If the institutional flare is your forte', then I did run across one institution that kept the primary portion of its people's giving (used for the meeting of needs) separate from the secondary giving (used for paying the bills and other expenditures of the organization). Now, the amount put into the primary portion was always much more than the secondary portion, but the secondary was always more than enough to pay the bills and the mortgage. That organization is rare indeed. It does more to help its own people in need, and those in the surrounding community, than any other within 200 miles. That group lives and breaths the airs of faith more than most any other I have ever seen.

As for worship, well, that's an entirely different matter, and a very personal one at that. Most professing believers have no clue what true worship really is from a biblical perspective. Jesus said it best when talking to the Samaritan woman at the well. The ONLY acceptable worship before the Father is "spirit" and "truth". Those two terms describe a way of life, not some religious exercise within the four walls of organized religion, and a cathedral style, $5 million pipe organ makes no difference at all. A man who understands these words of the Master, and lives them on a daily basis, can enjoy the most glorious worship before the Lord, no matter where his steps may lead him.

BTW
 
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Athanasian Creed

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Morning Dove said:
This is very interesting. As everyone knows, the early Christians met in their own homes. :)

I'm pretty sure you are going to see more and more of this when we here in North America experience more of the persecution the early Church did. There just might come a time when going to church will be against the law !


Ray :wave:
 
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BeforeThereWas

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Athanasian Creed said:
I'm pretty sure you are going to see more and more of this when we here in North America experience more of the persecution the early Church did. There just might come a time when going to church will be against the law ! Ray :wave:

May that day come, if it is to come, that the Church may then be distinguished from those who are merely religionists.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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StJames said:
Before there was,

Interesting outline. Our pastor started preaching on tithing yesterday. Interestingly, he started by saying, "I'll just be using the OT today." Hmmmmm, I wonder why?

Peter

Well, I think you fully understand his use of the OT for that particular subject. It only works in the minds of those who are less critical in their thinking, and less knowledgable than they really should be. Your minister will proceed in the hopes that most will not be aware of the fact that the tithe was ONLY of the increase of the fields, orchards, vineyards, flocks and herds, NOT money, and NOT of wages exchanged for labor (which are NOT a form of increase as defined by scripture).

Your "pastor" has the advantage, in that you will never be allowed to address the congregation from that pulpit; at least, if what you have to say contradicts your "pastor's" dogmas. It is guarded against people like you who know better than to buy into these kinds of false teachings spewed from that platform. If you try to educate others in your church about what scripture REALLY teaches, you will be labeled as a trouble-maker, a free-thinker, and any number of not-so-creative labels, and possibly even ousted from membership. You have no voice but to be one small voice drowned out by the bleeting of all the other sheep. If you listen closely, you hear a rhythm that seems to say, "Sheer us! Sheer us! We like it! We're used to it!" :doh:

Very sad indeed.

BTW
 
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New_Wineskin

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BeforeThereWas said:
Well, I think you fully understand his use of the OT for that particular subject. It only works in the minds of those who are less critical in their thinking, and less knowledgable than they really should be. Your minister will proceed in the hopes that most will not be aware of the fact that the tithe was ONLY of the increase of the fields, orchards, vineyards, flocks and herds, NOT money, and NOT of wages exchanged for labor (which are NOT a form of increase as defined by scripture).

Your "pastor" has the advantage, in that you will never be allowed to address the congregation from that pulpit; at least, if what you have to say contradicts your "pastor's" dogmas. It is guarded against people like you who know better than to buy into these kinds of false teachings spewed from that platform. If you try to educate others in your church about what scripture REALLY teaches, you will be labeled as a trouble-maker, a free-thinker, and any number of not-so-creative labels, and possibly even ousted from membership. You have no voice but to be one small voice drowned out by the bleeting of all the other sheep. If you listen closely, you hear a rhythm that seems to say, "Sheer us! Sheer us! We like it! We're used to it!" :doh:

Very sad indeed.

BTW

Good points . Even when people are encouraged to look at the Scriptures for themselves to check to see if what they are saying is correct , people won't . When a very few actually do , they get the run around and things get ugly or the people are humored .
 
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newcreature

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Athanasian Creed said:
I'm pretty sure you are going to see more and more of this when we here in North America experience more of the persecution the early Church did. There just might come a time when going to church will be against the law !


Ray :wave:

You bring up a very good point. What are the churched going to do when the church as they know it, is no longer?
 
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BeforeThereWas

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newcreature said:
You bring up a very good point. What are the churched going to do when the church as they know it, is no longer?

If hard times hit this country on a broad scale, church-goers will find out that their "storehouse" wasn't quite the storehouse they initially thought it to be.

BTW
 
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BeforeThereWas

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New_Wineskin said:
Good points . Even when people are encouraged to look at the Scriptures for themselves to check to see if what they are saying is correct , people won't . When a very few actually do , they get the run around and things get ugly or the people are humored .

Very true indeed, especially when you talk about their pet-peve doctrines, such as tithing.

BTW
 
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New_Wineskin said:
Each person is different . Here are *my* answers .



I consider that preaching is for the nonbeliever and not the believer . You may mean "teaching" instead of "preaching" . As for teaching , the Lord does a good job .

I don't consider that there are "sacraments" because that would give way to works for salvation from my pov .




I usually go grocery shopping Sunday mornings . I am unsure why Sundays are so prominent . Too much of a tradition for me .




I don't know of any Levites living in my area . So , I wouldn't know how . As far as *giving* goes , I give when and where the Lord desires .

I don't think that was much help .
Good point on the Levitial tithe and the Christian cheerful giving.
 
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