Curious As To How Controversial My Words Are About God Becoming A Man.

[Greg Logan]

Well that is a pretty big claim. That the Septuagint, which is a translation is more authoritative than the Hebrew.....Not withstanding the alterations made to the Hebrew at the end of the first century by a pretty anti-Christ group of rabbi's. Fortunately we have the Dead Dead Scrolls, in addition to the Septuagint to correct the treachery of those rabbis and the Masoretic Text. Those alterations are well known though. Your talking about the vast body of the Hebrew that was never altered.
Dead Sea Scroll with Exodus 3: Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q13 Exodus

Dead Sea Scroll with Exodus 3: Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls - 4Q1 Genesis-Exodus

So what if Jesus or the Apostles read and quoted the Septuagint? They had access to the Hebrew also just like we do. Your going KJV only here with the Septuagint.

Daniel - There is NO "big claim". Simply read it for yourself.

Oh... btw... have you checked the name of Yah in Rev 1:4...???

 

[Greg Logan]

Exodus 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto Jehovah, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off. 2 and Moses alone shall come near unto Jehovah; but they shall not come near; neither shall the people go up with him........ 9Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. 10 And they saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and as it were the very heaven for clearness. 11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: and they beheld God, and did eat and drink.

Who is this God of Israel who sits down with Moses, the preists and 70 elders of Israel for dinner the same as he did with Abraham?

Ooppsss... sorry... I missed the follow-up here -

That is simply Yah.

 

[klutedavid]

Hmmmm.... I was not thinking of the any of the Son of God texts - nor, especially "Son of Man" texts (a potentially more complex rather than simple ontological statement) nor especially the Son of David (since ontology is not the focus).

I don't have any texts which make your statement "he became man" (not sure where you get that text???). I do have at least one clear text for "the risen man" (1Tim2:5).

I do not have any texts which clearly, unambiguously, didactically, formally state that "he is God" which I assume you mean in an ontological rather than positional sense (?). I have heard of a various assumptions and ambiguities but nothing more.

Hello Greg.

Do you believe Jesus was just a man?

 

[Greg Logan]

Hello Greg.

Do you believe Jesus was just a man?

I prefer simply using text rather than models.

BTW - "just"??? Please review Heb2:6ff as to God's view of mankind... made in His image.... I think "just" is a little demeaning...to a creature made in the image of its creator.

 

[klutedavid]

I prefer simply using text rather than models.

BTW - "just"??? Please review Heb2:6ff as to God's view of mankind... made in His image.... I think "just" is a little demeaning...to a creature made in the image of its creator.

Hello Greg.

Take it anyway you wish.

Do you believe the text is declaring Jesus to be a man?

 

[Greg Logan]

Hello Greg.

Take it anyway you wish.

Do you believe the text is declaring Jesus to be a man?

Great question!

First - let's take a look at the phrase "crowned with glory and honor".... That does not sound like "just" or "mere"... (I realize that phrasing is commonly thrown around - so people get sucked into it without considering the full culture of the Kingdom of God).

OK - thanks for getting me to jump a bit back into that text.
So in v9 - yes - by implication Jesus is being said to be a man - albeit the focus is not ontological but really it is his suffering as the basis of his crowning that the author was focused on. Therefore, the crowning does not necessarily happen just for fun and games...

I would focus on v11 - which gives the strongest possible sense that Jesus was created that I am aware of in scripture - other than maybe Lk2. I do not see any better way of exegeting that text without regard to tradition. Jesus is "ek" God - the fundamental creative source preposition - never used of Jesus - the same way we are "ek" God. I am unable to see how the author's intent could be in any otherwise construed.

Then v14 and v17 - the author seems to be pounding home the necessity that Jesus is a man as the basis for his suffering to be meaningful. If Jesus were not a man - if he were not a genuine human person - if he were a mere impersonal human nature actuated by a deity - then his suffering would be irrelevant to "the children whom God had given him".

There is certainly more depth to the passage than my little bit here - and the soteriological piece in v9 escapes me except in its most basic sense.

Does that make sense?

 

[klutedavid]

Great question!

First - let's take a look at the phrase "crowned with glory and honor".... That does not sound like "just" or "mere"... (I realize that phrasing is commonly thrown around - so people get sucked into it without considering the full culture of the Kingdom of God).

OK - thanks for getting me to jump a bit back into that text.
So in v9 - yes - by implication Jesus is being said to be a man - albeit the focus is not ontological but really it is his suffering as the basis of his crowning that the author was focused on. Therefore, the crowning does not necessarily happen just for fun and games...

I would focus on v11 - which gives the strongest possible sense that Jesus was created that I am aware of in scripture - other than maybe Lk2. I do not see any better way of exegeting that text without regard to tradition. Jesus is "ek" God - the fundamental creative source preposition - never used of Jesus - the same way we are "ek" God. I am unable to see how the author's intent could be in any otherwise construed.

Then v14 and v17 - the author seems to be pounding home the necessity that Jesus is a man as the basis for his suffering to be meaningful. If Jesus were not a man - if he were not a genuine human person - if he were a mere impersonal human nature actuated by a deity - then his suffering would be irrelevant to "the children whom God had given him".

There is certainly more depth to the passage than my little bit here - and the soteriological piece in v9 escapes me except in its most basic sense.

Does that make sense?

Hello Greg.

I understand what you are saying.

Jesus is a man and the author of Hebrews emphasizes this fact.

I think the issue is not so much that the apostles observed that Jesus was a man, the issue is whether underneath this exterior physiology. Jesus was in fact a divine being, a divine being worthy of worship.

Hebrews 1
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Why would angels be allowed to worship a man?

 

[Greg Logan]

Hello Greg.

I understand what you are saying.

Jesus is a man and the author of Hebrews emphasizes this fact.

I think the issue is not so much that the apostles observed that Jesus was a man, the issue is whether underneath this exterior physiology. Jesus was in fact a divine being, a divine being worthy of worship.

Hebrews 1
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Why would angels be allowed to worship a man?

Klute

If I may say - there are some more pieces to this than simply that Jesus is a man. The really critical issue is that his suffering - to be relevant to us - REQUIRED that he is a man - not just as to exterior physiology - but a man in every respect as us (v17). Otherwise his suffering would be of no use - particularly as an encouragement to deal with suffering (his big point in the whole epistle).

The next question - at least based on this text - is whether Jesus is a divine being. I don't see the author touching on that in this text - so at least in regards to this text - that is not an issue.

You have added a new text from Ch1 re "worship" and asked a very reasonable question.

My question to you - have you done an exhaustive study on "worship". As example, have you reviewed the meaning of the word - and related usage - including all OT instances. Try 1Chron29:20 as an example....

 

[klutedavid]

Hello Logan.

Thanks for your reply, though I disagree with everything you wrote.

If I may say - there are some more pieces to this than simply that Jesus is a man. The really critical issue is that his suffering - to be relevant to us - REQUIRED that he is a man - not just as to exterior physiology - but a man in every respect as us (v17). Otherwise his suffering would be of no use - particularly as an encouragement to deal with suffering (his big point in the whole epistle).

I don't see the suffering of Christ, as the big point in the whole epistle, far from it.

I see the Christ as the fulfillment of everything that was defined in the old covenant, that is the genuine subject (big point) of this letter to the Hebrews.

The next question - at least based on this text - is whether Jesus is a divine being. I don't see the author touching on that in this text - so at least in regards to this text - that is not an issue.

The identity of the Christ was a great issue in first century Israel. The New Testament is actually the revelation of the Christ to humanity, written so that you will believe in Him.

You have added a new text from Ch1 re "worship" and asked a very reasonable question.

Yes Logan, it raises a serious question about angels worshiping men.

Hebrews 1
6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“And let all the angels of God worship Him.”

Worship can be a sign of reverence between people on occasion, for example, the subjects of a kingdom worshiping their king. Though I was unable to find a single example in the Old Testament, of any angel worshiping any man. Perhaps you may know of such an example?

Matthew 4:10
Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”

The nation of Israel were warned against the worship of anyone or anything, except God alone.

Whether the author of Hebrews understood the significance of angels worshiping a man, i.e., the man Christ Jesus. I do not know Logan, did any of the authors in the New Testament connect the dots?

 

[Greg Logan]

I don't see the suffering of Christ, as the big point in the whole epistle, far from it.

Klute - Sorry if I was not clear. The suffering of Christ per se is NOT the big point of the epistle - it is the big point of that particular text. The big point of the epistle really is about their suffering - and their resultant tendency to draw back to their old religion - followed by the author's encouragement as to how to deal with it - with a focus on the much grander new covenant compared to the inadequacies of the old.
Does that make more sense?

re: Worship
There is no distinction in the word. Any such distinction would be artificial and driven by external considerations rather than Biblical data. Jesus called those of the synagogue of Satan to worship the church (Rev3:9). So we see men being worshipped as a routine phenomenon when we receive the whole counsel of God.

 

[Ron Gurley]

OP: Q: "God" Becoming A "Man"?

To me the answer must be divided into 2 questions:

1. Was the historical Person of Jesus the Christ DEITY/DIVINITY?...i.e. possessing a unique DUAL NATURE: TRUE MAN...TRUE GOD?

A1: YES! citations to Scripture omitted.

2. Was the historical Person of Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah, a spiritual Person of the TRI-UNE GOD, The Godhead?

A2: YES! citations to Scripture omitted.

WHERE WOULD Y'ALL LIKE TO GO FROM HERE?

 

[Greg Logan]

OP: Q: "God" Becoming A "Man"?

To me the answer must be divided into 2 questions:

1. Was the historical Person of Jesus the Christ DEITY/DIVINITY?...i.e. possessing a unique DUAL NATURE: TRUE MAN...TRUE GOD?

A1: YES! citations to Scripture omitted.

2. Was the historical Person of Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah, a spiritual Person of the TRI-UNE GOD, The Godhead?

A2: YES! citations to Scripture omitted.

WHERE WOULD Y'ALL LIKE TO GO FROM HERE?

WOW!! Admittedly those are some really big claims since there is not a single text in the Bible that is quoted - and no such scriptural language available - simply 3rd/4th C model language.....

Since we are dealing with models - lets look more closely at the one you are bringing to the table. I have a critical question re your model -

Can the man Christ Jesus fully function independent of an incarnated deity - in the same way that you, I and all men can fully function independent of an incarnated deity??

Thanks,

Greg

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE to post#32:

First and foremost, this OP is NOT dealing with hypothetical questions or "MODELS" of "God".
It invites discussion ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS supported (or not) by Scripture...the "word of God".

Q: Can the "man Christ Jesus" fully function independent of an "incarnated deity" - in the same way that you, I and all men can fully function independent of an incarnated deity??

A: False premise. Jesus the Christ, as part of the united Godhead, the TRI-UNE GOD, is pre-existent SPIRIT. He is/was/will always be DEITY/DIVINITY. He had a UNIQUE DUAL NATURE: True Man...True God.

Let's start with my post #31:

1. Was the historical Person of Jesus the Christ DEITY/DIVINITY?...i.e. possessing a unique DUAL NATURE: TRUE MAN...TRUE GOD?

Jesus the God-Man was / is a pre-existent Person of the TRI-UNE GOD.

Q1: Was God the Son identical to God the Father or God the Holy Spirit?
A1: No.

Q2: God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit?...ONE God in spiritual essence and nature??
A2: Yes

Q3: God the Son, God the Father, God the Holy Spirit?...THREE spiritually discernible Persons as to RANK, ROLE, MISSION, NAME, FUNCTION, etc
A3: Yes.

Q4: Was Jesus the God-Man the promised Divine Messiah, the Christ?
A4: Yes

Q5: Did Jesus the God-Man come down / was sent down from heaven...the "logos" made flesh...Deity poured out in Man without loss or change in Deity?
A5:Yes.

Q6: Was Jesus the God-Man Divine/Deity from conception to ascension while on planet earth?
A6: Yes.

Q7: Did the Jewish leadership plot to and accomplish the killing of Jesus the God-Man because He claimed to be THE Messiah, the Divine Son of God?
A7: Yes.

The historical and miraculous...

Jesus of Nazareth,
the Divine Messiah,
the Christ,
Son of God,
Son of Man,
True Man,
True God,
the God-Man, a spiritual Person of the Tri-Une God,
LORD,
Master,
Savior,
Immanuel
KING of Kings, LORD of Lords
Lamb of God
ONLY Begotten (not made unique) Son of God
The Good Sheherd
The Bread of Life
The Light of the World
The Narrow Gate
The Resurrection and the Life
The Way + TRUTH + Life
Alpha and Omega
The Bright Morning Star
etc...and other "I am's"

Colossians 2 ....
9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity (TRUE GOD) dwells in bodily form, (TRUE MAN)
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 1 ....
18b...For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,

Colossians 1 ....
16 For by Him all things were created,
both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities
—all things have been created THROUGH Him and FOR Him.
17 He is BEFORE all things, and
in Him all things "hold together".
18 He is also head of the body, the church;
and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness (of Deity) to dwell in Him,
20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself,
having made peace through the blood of His cross;

John 17...
24 Father, I desire that they also (disciples), whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am,
so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Philippians 2(NASB)...Be Like Christ..."The Kenosis"
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God,(DEITY)
did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,(held onto)
7 but emptied Himself,(poured out = GREEK = KENOO)
taking the form of a bond-servant,(Man)
and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man,(MIRACULOUS incarnation) He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow,
of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, (Deity) to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus the Christ is the same yesterday (eternal: before time and space)
and today (right hand of God the Father as Intercessor in heaven for believers)
and forever.(infinite SPIRIT, Godhead)

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

 

[Ron Gurley]

NEXT:
2. Was the historical Person of Jesus the Christ, The Divine Messiah, a spiritual Person of the TRI-UNE GOD, The Godhead?.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit...united as ONE in spiritual essence as ONE Divine DEITY.

The THREE spirtiual Persons of the Godhead are DIFFERENT
...spiritually discernible has having different NAMES, RANK, ROLE. MISSION, FUNCTION, ETC.

Oh the Mysteries of the REAL and spiritual TRI-UNE GOD!

God the Father is Divine / Deity different than:
God the Holy Spirit Who is Divine / Deity different than:
God the Son, Jesus the Divine Messiah Divine / Deity.

TRI-UNE GOD TRUTHS/DOCTRINE REVEALED! and AGAIN!

God the Son, Jesus the God-Man is not the SAME as/IDENTICAL to God the Father,
nor is God the Son, Jesus the God-Man the SAME as/ IDENTICAL to God the Holy Spirit.
The spiritual Persons of the "Godhead" are discerned has having different
RANKS, ROLES, MISSIONS, FUNCTIONS, NAMES, etc.
No one Person of the "Godhead" is identical to / the same as / "equal" to the other
>>>EXCEPT<<< in THEIR unity of "spiritual essence" AND divine nature. (1 Cor.12:13)

The TRI-UNE GOD is ONE GOD unified in spiritual essence and nature and character.
1. "The Father and I (Jesus) are ONE...in spiritual essence ONLY...John 10

In many ROLES / FUNCTIONS, God the Father RANKS ABOVE both God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

For example:

Genesis 1:26-28 (NASB)...ALLOWS for a PLURAL GOD
26 Then God (Elohim - plural - pre-existent one) said,
“Let Us make man in Our (spiritual) image, according to Our (character?) likeness;

Mattthew 3: 16-17: The Beginning of Jesus' Ministry
As soon as Jesus (God the Son) was baptized, he went up out of the water.
At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God (God the Holy Spirit)
descending like (in the form of) a dove and lighting on him.And a voice (God the Father) from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

Mark 9:7...The Transfiguration
Then a cloud (God the Holy Spirit) formed, overshadowing them (God the Son, Jesus + 3), and a voice (God the Father) came out of the cloud,
“This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

John 14:26 (NIV)...a new promise by Jesus...a snapshot of the TRI-UNE God
"When the Counselor (God the Holy Spirit) comes,
whom I (God the Son/Jesus) will send to you from the Father (God the Father),
the Spirit of TRUTH (God the Holy Spirit) who goes out from the Father (God the Father),
he (the Spirit of TRUTH) will testify (to the spirit of Man) about me. (God the Son/Jesus)

John 14:26(NASB)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,
whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and
bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Matthew 28: 18 - The End of the Ministry - Post Resurrection and Pre-Ascension... The Great Commisssion
Then Jesus came to them (11 disciples) and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore
a. go and
b. make disciples of all nations,
c. baptizing them (saved beleivers) in the name
of (God) the Father and
of (God) the Son and
of (God) the Holy Spirit,
and d. teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.
And surely I am with you always (spiritually), to the very "end of the age". (of Grace/"Church")

Colossians 2 :8-9;
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Colossians 1 :15-19
For God was pleased to have all his fullness (of the Deity) dwell in Him,
and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Phillipians 2...The Kenosis...Diety poured out into perfect flesh without loss or change in Deity

Romans 15:30 (NIV)...in prayer
I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus)
and by the love of the Spirit (God the Holy Spirit), to join me in my struggle
by praying to God (God the Father) for me.

2 Corinthians 13:14 (NIV)...in goodbyes
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ (God the Son/Jesus) ,
and the love of God (God the Father),
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit (God the Holy Spirit) be with you all.

 

[Greg Logan]

RESPONSE to post#32:

First and foremost, this OP is NOT dealing with hypothetical questions or "MODELS" of "God".
It invites discussion ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS supported (or not) by Scripture...the "word of God".

Hey Ron

Thanks for the follow-up!

Please note - first, I was specifically responding to YOUR post - NOT the OP - because you specifically invited a response (see your statement - WHERE WOULD Y'ALL LIKE TO GO FROM HERE?)

Does that make sense?

Second, you provided models - rather than text. Therefore, I addressed on that level.

Does that make sense??

Third, I asked for a clarification of your model with critical question.

Do you feel like you have responded to my question with what you above??

Best

Greg

 

[Ron Gurley]

RESPONSE T0 POST # 35:
I responded to the OP with Scripturally supported orthodox true doctrines. I will no longer respond to you.

 

[Traveling teacher]

Scripture only
GOd is not a man.....and never can be....
GOd cannot lie.....
Numbers 23:19
Hebrews 6:18
1 samuel 15:29...God is not a man....
GOd is not a man that He should lie.....
GOd cannot be tempted ......
James 1:13
Furthermore God cannot change....so it is impossible for Him to necome a man
Malaci 3:6

 

[Greg Logan]

RESPONSE T0 POST # 35:
I responded to the OP with Scripturally supported orthodox true doctrines. I will no longer respond to you.

Sorry to ask you such tough questions about your model....

 

[Greg Logan]

Scripture only
GOd is not a man.....and never can be....
GOd cannot lie.....
Numbers 23:19
Hebrews 6:18
1 samuel 15:29...God is not a man....
GOd is not a man that He should lie.....
GOd cannot be tempted ......
James 1:13
Furthermore God cannot change....so it is impossible for Him to necome a man
Malaci 3:6

Now - that is a little closer! Actual texts - instead of a model (esp. one which has no text).

Thanks for making the effort!