Curiosity About.. well.. Everything

[ephraimanesti]

This is one reason I recommend people start reading in John's Gospel, and go straight through to the end of the NT from there. OT can be a little rough to figure out what to do with it, if you don't have a good grasp of the NT first.

Yes--you are correct. My bad for sure! Although in this case i don't think it would have made any difference--i think perhaps the mind was made up before the first Post was written.

ephraim

 

[OwlSight]

Dear OwlSight

The awesome thing about Christianity is that we serve a genuine, honest to goodness, living God. One that takes care of His children, and stands by them through thick and thin. I could give you numerous accounts of my life being saved by divine intervention. I'd have been dead or maimed so many times, were it not for my God, and His love and protection. Honestly, I wouldn't have lived to be 2 years old if it were not for the Lord. I still vividly remember what my mother told me some years ago:

She was busy at the stove - preparing some food. I was in my tall feeding chair, not even a year old. Since she had her back towards me, she didn't notice me climbing out of the chair, and busy toppling it over - with my head headed straight for the floor. She said that she felt something grab her from behind, and turn her around. She was just in time to catch me before hitting the floor. See, they are also Christians, who also enjoyed God's loving protection - for the whole family.

Anyways, that's one of many examples. Nothing beats knowing the love of a genuine God.

That's an amazing and inspiring story! I've actually heard of a few similar accounts happening within my own family. At this point, I'm keeping my mind open regarding any sort of deity, because in my heart, I know that if there is one or many, He, She or They will one day show themselves to me, in one way or another. And even if I do begin to believe in a god or gods that are differing from yours, that will make neither of our faiths any less valid. Thank you for your story and advice! I appreciate it.

Firstly you should familiarise yourself with the life and teachings of Jesus, as found in the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. If something within you is attracted to his message, that is the best reason than any other I can think of that you might consider Christianity as a way of life.

Thank you for your advice, too! I have never actually been to a church before, and even if I was.. erm.. deeply disturbed by what I read in the Bible, attending an open-minded Christian service might be beneficial to me in one way or another. I'll have to keep everyone updated on my progress through this journey, haha!

Yes--you are correct. My bad for sure! Although in this case i don't think it would have made any difference--i think perhaps the mind was made up before the first Post was written.

Yes, I don't think it would have made a difference, either. :S I'm going to continue exploring this avenue regardless of what I read.. In the words of drich0150, I've had a certain anti-Christian sentiment seeded in my heart since birth, simply because I have been surrounded by the hateful sort of Christians that insisted that I was going to Hell without even knowing that they were indirectly addressing my friends and I.

What I mean is something like this.. My parents would spout homophobic statements that mirrored what the Christians around me spouted with even more fervour. After several very negative experiences with people who called themselves "Christians," I began becoming the atheist version of a "Bible-basher." Essentially, if anyone around me vaguely even mentioned the Christian god, I would immediately throw up my defenses and begin berating the person who brought it up with atheist logic and disbelief.

So, yes, drich0150 was technically sort of right in thinking that I had some sort of already-established preconception, but obviously I'm attempting to set those preconceptions aside as best I can to attempt to open my mind.

Although I may actually begin going to a service or two, like mentioned above, I'm beginning to think that my place might just be among the people who find some sort of religious fulfillment in the pursuit of knowledge. I have a friend who's a gnostic priest, and that is the fundamental belief that he has! It's incredibly fascinating, and last night, I showed one of my friends (I have no idea what faith she believes in, but she did go to a Christian school for eight years) this thread and she showed me the wiki page of the Unitarian Universalists. ( Unitarian Universalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) Just by skimming this page, I can say that that sounds like something I could get into! ;D

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

OwlSight, don't treat religion like a shopping trip to Wal-Mart. Jesus said their there is only one way. There is only one truth. Before you turn to gnosticism and such please, I beg you, read the Gospels. At least read Matthew and John. See if the words speak truth to you.

 

[solarwave]

What I don't get about this is that if He died only to be brought back, then what was the point in dying? What did He lose in dying?

What did He lose in dying? Well how would you feel about being crucified even if you were going to be brought back? Personally I would still hate to be crucified. If Jesus didn't die He couldn't be resurrected and so there would be no evidence He was special, Christianity likely wouldn't have become a major religion and we wouldn't have the same hope for God overcoming death in our own lives. Jesus' death demonstrates the love of God.

Another thing I wonder is why should I assume that He was resurrected? I say "assume" because, well.. I'm not sure what proof there is that He was actually resurrected..

Well as I said I wasn't trying to prove anything in my original post, just to give my understanding of Christianity which moves away from the conservative understanding and could be more helpful to you.

There are many books on the subject of the evidence for the resurrection. I could attempt to explain various evidences here, but a book could do it better than me.

For example, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead why did Paul say Jesus had risen from the dead? It would make sense for Paul to know the disciples who knew Jesus in life and so know whether they had seen the resurrected Jesus or not. There seems little reason to think all the disciples would lie about the resurrection when all it would do is cause them persecution.

I don't understand why Him coming back from the dead is a reason for me to believe..

Well it is physically impossible to be resurrected so it must be an act of God. The gospels say that Jesus predicted His death and resurrection as well as teaching goodness and the uniqueness of Himself in relation to God.

Apparently, loads of other people were killed via crucifixion, as well.. Why did Jesus get to come back? Why are we somehow absolved of our sins if we believe that happened?

Because Jesus was the unique expression of God in a human life, the predicted messiah.

By the way I don't believe that belief in a set of ideas gives us forgiveness. Salvation comes by turning our hearts towards God. This is best if one knows about the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, but I don't think all non-christians go to a place of eternal fire.

 

[ephraimanesti]

MY BROTHER,

May i make one last suggestion? Christianity stands or falls on the Resurrection of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ. If He did, in fact, rise from the dead--as i and all Christians believe He did--then He is proven, by this fact, to be Who and What He claims to be--the Son of God and the Savior of the World. On the other hand, if He did not rise on the third days as the Gospel proclaims, then He is either a fraud or mentally ill.

HONESTLY EVALUATE THIS! All those who have written about the Resurrection of Christ in the Scriptures were either eye witnesses of the Risen Lord--Matthew, John, Peter, and Paul--or recorded the words of eye witnesses--Mark and Luke.

Be aware that all those (with the exception of John who died in exile) who testified to what they saw--their Lord alive and well after His death and burial--gave their lives in support of their testimony when they could have denied their testimony and lived by performing the simple act of publicly burning incense to Caesar--which they all refused to do knowing, as they did, the Truth of Who and What Jesus the Christ is. Would you surrender your life for a story you yourself had made up? i know i certainly wouldn't. This fact, alone, gives credence to the Resurrection of our Lord as described in the Gospels and thus to the Spiritual Edifice which was built upon His Foundation.

No other spiritual path can claim this sort of unimpeachable testimony to it's Truth and Power as Christianity does. All other spiritual paths are merely poor imitations of the Truth laid out for us by our Heavily Father and presented to us by His Son, Jesus the Christ.

PRAY THAT GOD WILL SHOW YOU THE TRUTH OF THE ABOVE--AND HE WILL BE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ABLIGE! He has promised that "those who seek will find."

PEACE AND JOY TO YOU AND YOUR HOUSE!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Hospes]

OwlSight,
I don't get it. In your opening post you profess the thinnest of understanding of Christianity and a genuine interest in knowing more. Someone points you to the story of Jesus in the Bible and you just happen to end up first in the typical Old Testament texts that are used to ridicule Christianity. Later you mention that you "have been surrounded by the hateful sort of Christians that insisted that I was going to Hell..." Please forgive me if I am wrong, but you appear to not be really interested seriously engaging intellectually. Forgive me, again, if I am wrong, but it looks like you're baiting the folks here. If I am right, I have a question, a recommendation, and a prayer for you:
Questio: Does your behavior ever make you ashamed of yourself?
Recommendation: The Unitarians very well may be for you. There you get to make up whatever "faith" you want and worship any god of your own making. You answer to no one but said god and have everyone afirm that the god you made is the god you want.
Prayer: My honest prayer is that God would show you grace in showing you himself, the God not of your own making. That in him you'd find a person bigger than yourself and a treasure worth forsaking delusion for reality.
Owlsight, if I am wrong, honestly feel free to ignore this post.

 

[OwlSight]

Holy wow, uhhh.. I'm totally overwhelmed by all of these responses and I have no idea how to start replying, but here it goes..

OwlSight, don't treat religion like a shopping trip to Wal-Mart.

Is it bad that that made me laugh? ;

Jesus said their there is only one way.

The reason why I'm "shopping" instead of settling on the "one way" is so that I can find if that is indeed true.

Uhm.. Again, I'm completely overwhelmed by stuff. At this point, I feel like any response I make towards comments will make me seem more like a troll and whatnot. I'm really not trying to be a troll, but it seems as though when I ask these questions on various chatrooms and forums, I always, always, ALWAYS get banned when I continue to question and press and.. uh.. other similar verbs. Sooo.. ..uh.. I'm going to just.. be quiet, now.

There's a church within walking distance of my dorm that I might visit to ask my questions, but I don't remember what denomination it is. We'll see how that goes. e_o

Maybe it's just my flightiness that makes me hop around from one state of thinking to another, but.. ..wow I completely forgot where I was going with that.

Uhhhh.. Yeah.

 

[solarwave]

I'm really not trying to be a troll, but it seems as though when I ask these questions on various chatrooms and forums, I always, always, ALWAYS get banned when I continue to question and press and.. uh.. other similar verbs. Sooo.. ..uh.. I'm going to just.. be quiet, now.

I'm pretty sure that arguing very strong for something doesn't get you banned on here.

 

[OwlSight]

I'm pretty sure that arguing very strong for something doesn't get you banned on here.

I don't wanna make people angry, either, though.. ..Or give myself a bad reputation.

 

[Bear.Fr00t]

The reason why I'm "shopping" instead of settling on the "one way" is so that I can find if that is indeed true.

Fair enough. The gnostics will tell you the Christian Bible is corrupt and that many of the books we hold as inspired of God are not trustworthy. They will then show you their texts which are full of heresy. That's why I want you to read the Bible first before you are exposed to the junk the gnostics will spout. Good luck I hope you find the narrow gate.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13-14)

 

[supersoldier71]

OwlSight,

Welcome! That you're asking questions is a good thing! The next part I am going to suggest is a little harder though, because you must ask yourself: "Do I want to know God?"

If the honest, heartfelt answer is "yes", it gets easier: ask Him, and then wait.

Good night and God bless!

 

[OwlSight]

Fair enough. The gnostics will tell you the Christian Bible is corrupt and that many of the books we hold as inspired of God are not trustworthy. They will then show you their texts which are full of heresy. That's why I want you to read the Bible first before you are exposed to the junk the gnostics will spout.

..Wow.. Um.. ..That.. is not my friend at all.. ..

 

[OwlSight]

OwlSight,

Welcome! That you're asking questions is a good thing! The next part I am going to suggest is a little harder though, because you must ask yourself: "Do I want to know God?"

If the honest, heartfelt answer is "yes", it gets easier: ask Him, and then wait.

Good night and God bless!

The answer is "no." :[ I'm still exploring things, but right now, I'm staying secular. We'll see what happens in the future.

Thank you for welcoming me!

 

[razeontherock]

I've had a certain anti-Christian sentiment seeded in my heart since birth

if anyone around me vaguely even mentioned the Christian god, I would immediately throw up my defenses

I'm attempting to set those preconceptions aside as best I can to attempt to open my mind.

religious fulfillment in the pursuit of knowledge.

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him." (ESV)

That's saying He won't beat you up for not knowing. I'll also point out there are some gay posters on CF who really know the Lord. You should befriend them and see what they have to say ...

 

[ephraimanesti]

The answer is "no." :[ I'm still exploring things, but right now, I'm staying secular. We'll see what happens in the future.

Thank you for welcoming me!

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Unfortunately, with that attitude, absolutely nothing is likely to happen in the future--ever.

God has little patience with gamesters. (Unfortunately, i had to learn that the hard way, but learn it i did--all praise to Abba's patience and grace!)

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[ephraimanesti]

I don't wanna make people angry, either, though.. ..Or give myself a bad reputation.

MY BROTHER,

Your primary worry should not be what we think about you--it should be what God thinks about you, for He alone knows your heart and He alone is qualified to judge it.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Walter Kovacs]

@ the OP:

Do you have perhaps a list of questions that need answering, or objections, or whatnot? So far, your thread seems very general, and there's not a lot I'm able to do in terms of nailing down some good answers/resources for you. If you could list say, 3 or 4 main things you'd like to have answered I could do a better job of helping you out.

 

[OwlSight]

@ the OP:

Do you have perhaps a list of questions that need answering, or objections, or whatnot? So far, your thread seems very general, and there's not a lot I'm able to do in terms of nailing down some good answers/resources for you. If you could list say, 3 or 4 main things you'd like to have answered I could do a better job of helping you out.

I was going to simply not reply anymore to this and send you a PM, but this will be my 15th post, so I'll be able to PM you after this! Yaaayyyy~~

 

[joey_downunder]

Hi Owlsight, some of us also had big doubts and wanted real evidence before we believed in any religion. If you want to know about actual factual evidence supporting christianity: Tekton Education and Apologetics Ministries. James Patrick Holding. Tektonitron apologetics Encyclopedia. answering Bible difficulties and Bible contradictions is a great website and answers a lot of theories that people have constructed to justify their rejection of Christianity.

Re gnostics versus mainstream christians: Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

As you can from following the links all New Testament books were from first century, only a few gnostic texts are dated towards the end of first century, vast majority written in second and third centuries.

Who is more likely to know what happened and so therefore write the truth: the apostles who actually walked with Jesus for 3 years and/or people directly taught by them, or from people taught by a few heretics who never ever walked with Jesus/and or weren't even alive in Jesus lifetime?

 

[purnhart]

What I don't get about this is that if He died only to be brought back, then what was the point in dying? What did He lose in dying? Another thing I wonder is why should I assume that He was resurrected? I say "assume" because, well.. I'm not sure what proof there is that He was actually resurrected.. I don't understand why Him coming back from the dead is a reason for me to believe..

Apparently, loads of other people were killed via crucifixion, as well.. Why did Jesus get to come back? Why are we somehow absolved of our sins if we believe that happened?

The point of his dying has to do with original sin. When Adam and Eve sinned and God kicked them out of Eden, every descendant of Adam and Eve (you and me) inherited their sin nature. God's standard is perfection. You have to live a life with zero sin in order to get into heaven. Since no one is perfect, Jesus had to come, live a life without sin, and die in our place. He rose again on the third day to show he triumphed over death itself for us. John 3:16 says For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You say you are an agnostic. You might be interested in reading some books by a former agnostic by the name of Josh McDowell. I read him when I was in high school and he really makes sense. He was challenged to go and prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead. He tried, but he came back and proved that Jesus DID rise from the dead. And he became a Christian. I like his book, More than a Carpenter. Another good book is Basic Christianity by John Stott. Another former agnostic turned Christian was CS Lewis who wrote the Chronicles of Narnia. He wrote Mere Christianity, another book you might try.

Hope these help.