crucifix vs empty cross

[MoNiCa4316]

Someone on another forum said that the reason Catholics have the crucifix, is because we believe that Christ's atoning work is not finished, but is still going on; whereas Protestants believe that Christ's "sacrificial work is completed and there is no more sacrifice for sin".
and "The difference is that Protestants believe that Christ's work was finished on the cross, and Catholics believe it continues."

I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

Would you agree?

 

[Rhamiel]

we have the crucifix as a reminder of what He went through for us, yeah we can say that "wow being nailed to a cross hurts" but the image of a plain cross does not really communicate that, maybe if you lived in the roman empire 1800 years ago and you have seen a few people hung on a cross the bare cross would be enough of a reminder but for modern folk it helps to have a crucifix
The Catholic Church preaches that Jesus died for our sins, we do not "re-sacrifice" Him and we do not think His death was not good enough, the person who you are talking to is ignorant

 

[MoNiCa4316]

that is what I thought too.. oki I'm glad I wondered if I had misunderstood everything lol

 

[WarriorAngel]

He is done atoning for us.
Now we must remember what He did ~ always.

God Bless.

 

[WarriorAngel]

BTW - i have both the crucifix and the cross in my home.

Which reminds me of a question i have....

 

[MoNiCa4316]

He is done atoning for us.
Now we must remember what He did ~ always.

God Bless.

I agree

BTW - i have both the crucifix and the cross in my home.

Which reminds me of a question i have....

what is your question?

 

[WarriorAngel]

My question is - do exorcists use the crucifix or the cross?
And are they interchangeable?

Or does the crucifix weild more power?

Thot provoking.

Now to see the answer.
[btw getting over tummy flu - so i am not strong enough to search the answer]

 

[kisstheson]

I love the crucifix. Why people have a problem with it is beyond me. Don't they want to remember what Jesus did for them?

 

[Gwendolyn]

LMAO

That is a really funny bit of misinformation.

Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Christ is on the cross because A) he FLESHLY became man and wrought His saving work through the flesh, and anyone who says that He was not fully human subscribs to an old heresy; and B) without the Crucifixion, there could be no Resurrection... no Paschal Sacrifice = no Salvation! Remembering Christ on the Cross means remembering what He did for us and for our Salvation!

People probably have some deeper reflections but that's what comes to me off the top of my head.

I've had people say to me, "But Jesus isn't dead, He's alive! He's raised! He's not on the Cross!"

Couldn't have been raised without being Crucified.

But really John Calvin made a movement toward a second iconoclasm. He was one of the first to remove all religious paraphernalia from his churches because he believed it was idolatry, so there are empty crosses because he did not like iconography and such.

 

[Radagast]

we have the crucifix as a reminder of what He went through for us, yeah we can say that "wow being nailed to a cross hurts" but the image of a plain cross does not really communicate that, maybe if you lived in the roman empire 1800 years ago and you have seen a few people hung on a cross the bare cross would be enough of a reminder but for modern folk it helps to have a crucifix

Originally, the Church used the empty cross as a reminder of Christ's work, rather than the crucifix. Partly because early Christians needed no reminder of how terrible crucifixion was -- it used to happen regularly. From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Although in the fifth century the cross began to appear on public monuments, it was not for a century afterwards that the figure on the cross was shown; and not until the close of the fifth, or even the middle of the sixth century, did it appear without disguise. But from the sixth century onward we find many images -- not allegorical, but historical and realistic of the crucified Saviour... It is certain, then, that the custom of displaying the Redeemer on the Cross began with the close of the sixth century, especially on encolpia, yet such examples of the crucifix are rare... The last objections and obstacles to the realistic reproduction of the Crucifixion disappeared in the beginning of the eighth century."

As Gwendolyn points out, many Protestants feel that displaying a crucifix goes against their conscience and that images of Jesus are forbidden by Exodus 20:4, and this is the main reason for using an empty cross.

 

[AMDG]

A good argument can be made for both the empty cross and the crucifix. (I think some nuns have an empty cross in their cells to remind them that they need to put themselves on the cross daily.)

Anyway, I like what Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen once noted about the crucifix.

Christ's blood is the ink and His skin the parchment on which was written the awful litany of sin. The crown of thorns reminds us of all our evil thoughts and desires--the sins of pride, lust, envy, hatred, anger, prejudice, betrayal; the open wounds from the scourging of the numerous sins of the fliesh--impurity, drunkenness, drug abuse, gluttony, sloth; the nails in the hands and feet of the times when those bodily members have led us to sins of theft, murder, violence, reckless driving, vandalism; and the stab wound that pierced His heart of the many times that we have turned our hearts away from Him.

And as one book suggested, maybe the crucifix is more appropriate today, since we live in a world that has lost its sense of sin, and the body of Our crucified Lord is as stark a reminder as one could imagine of the horror of sin.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yep - in these times, we do need to remember what He did, and not take it so callously as tho its all owed to us now.
That we should ever forget the actual price He paid so we can continue to ignore Him and do our own thing [sin without a conscience]

Some say Catholic guilt like its a BAD thing.

 

[Sianelle]

I don't want to sound all mysterious or anything, but the truth of the matter is that the Cross is never empty; - or at least it isn't to a Catholic.

If the Protestants want to have an empty cross then I feel sorry for them and their empty colourless religion.

 

[Radagast]

If the Protestants want to have an empty cross then I feel sorry for them and their empty colourless religion.

The early Church used an empty cross for at least 500 years. Was it "colourless"?

 

[Sianelle]

The early Church used an empty cross for at least 500 years. Was it "colourless"?

You haven't been paying attention have you? I said that to a devout Catholic the Cross is never empty; - meaning that the Cross can physically be without a corpus but despite that it still is not empty.

 

[Radagast]

You haven't been paying attention have you? I said that to a devout Catholic the Cross is never empty; - meaning that the Cross can physically be without a corpus but despite that it still is not empty.

I guess I didn't fully understand that. Can you explain?

 

[Sianelle]

I guess I didn't fully understand that. Can you explain?

I shall do my best Radagast. As a contemplative I spend much time in meditation upon the Cross. The Passion of Christ+ was never just a piece of theatre, over and done with and then history rolled on. The Passion paid a price and that payment remains eternal in time. Yes there was the Ressurection and the Empty Tomb, but for as long as there are souls who do not know Christ+, or those who deny or turn aside from the Sacrifice then the Cross of the Passion (the Crucifix) will never be empty. For as long as I in my human condition continue to wound or disappoint my Lord+ with careless sins then the Cross of the Passion must remain to give witness to the fact of my ransom. I do not deny the Ressurection in any shape or form, - it is my Hope in this mortal world, but without the Passion and the payment of the blood price we are all doomed.
From another point of view an 'empty' Cross could also said to be never empty because we as Christian people are all hung upon it too.

 

[Radagast]

Thank you for that explanation of what seemed an odd thing to say at first.

I think that many Protestants fail to reflect on the cross as they should. This was not always so:

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of glory died,
My richest gain I count but loss,
And pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast,
Save in the death of Christ my God!
All the vain things that charm me most,
I sacrifice them to His blood.

See from His head, His hands, His feet,
Sorrow and love flow mingled down!
Did e’er such love and sorrow meet,
Or thorns compose so rich a crown?

His dying crimson, like a robe,
Spreads o’er His body on the tree;
Then I am dead to all the globe,
And all the globe is dead to me.

Were the whole realm of nature mine,
That were a present far too small;
Love so amazing, so divine,
Demands my soul, my life, my all. -- Isaac Watts, 1707

... but without the Passion and the payment of the blood price we are all doomed.

I think every Christian would (or should) agree with that.

From another point of view an 'empty' Cross could also said to be never empty because we as Christian people are all hung upon it too.

True, although the cross could also be seen as empty because we are carrying it (Matthew 16:24: Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me).

 

[Maggie893]

As Catholics we have all forms of worship and meditation open to us. An empty cross or a crucifix or both. Having been Protestant though and now Catholic, I personally, am more moved, more focused, more humbled, before a crucifix.

I'm with Paul. 1 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Cor2

I think there is a reason he emphasizes Christ crucified. He could have just said....." I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ". But it is the crucifixion that Paul adds and I believe that when we focus on Jesus crucified, we move more closely to where God wants us to be.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

My question is - do exorcists use the crucifix or the cross?
And are they interchangeable?

Or does the crucifix weild more power?

Thot provoking.

Now to see the answer.
[btw getting over tummy flu - so i am not strong enough to search the answer]

aw I hope you're better now?
hmm I really don't know the answer either!! I've always heard that exorcists use the crucifix. (anyone know?)

As Catholics we have all forms of worship and meditation open to us. An empty cross or a crucifix or both. Having been Protestant though and now Catholic, I personally, am more moved, more focused, more humbled, before a crucifix.

I'm with Paul. 1 And I, brethren, when I came unto you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 1Cor2

I think there is a reason he emphasizes Christ crucified. He could have just said....." I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ". But it is the crucifixion that Paul adds and I believe that when we focus on Jesus crucified, we move more closely to where God wants us to be.

I completely agree.