crossover with wof

now faith said:

Bitterness naw just bored with redundancy,and a pious post like this
{Quote} the WOFite, it doesn't matter what God has in mind for that person, but what they have directed for themselves by speaking into existence anything and everything that comes to their minds, oftentimes to consume it upon their own lusts.

So if i seem bitter I may just be weary of my faith being bashed.

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I'm not speaking against the Lord. It is the methodologies and formulas that I speak to. "Who is he that sayeth it and it comes to pass when the Lord commands it not?" is a verse you will find in Lamentations.

Just because we speak something in an effort to see it come to us doesn't mean it's within the will of God or applicable to the season in which we find ourselves. We must be willing and able to discern the times and seasons the Lord has us in.

We are not into this walk to spend all of our time micromanaging the appropriation of blessings. Instead, we are told our greatest efforts should be placed in dying to ourselves, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, and conforming to Christ's image, that we may know Him.

There are lots of things God allows in our paths that He can use to aid in our sanctification or deliverance from the power of sin. Sure, it may be the devil that brings about a situation, and we will have a responsibility to tell him to flee.

But, if we are not aware that what is happening could also be the result of reaping what we've sown, or that God Himself sent us that situation with the intent of destroying what stands in the way of His building in us, then our discernment is pretty lopsided. Chasing the devil 24/7 because we can see no other influence, is not a balanced view of the workings and purposes of God.

Dave

now faith said:

Why do you beat this dead horse,this view is is distorted.
Do you own anything or just run around naked?
Do you give to missions? Who decides for you how much?
Who tells you how big of house to live in?
If you live in a house,a man living in a box may say about all the cool indoor plumbing you have.
Who decides your prosperity or mine? Why is your humble life style more Godly than mine.
It is outrageous to obsess over what others have,or to be caught in the pride of look how humble I am and your faith is for personal gain but not mine!
You can sin over 5 dollars so how and who sets the standard.
These debates are to the point of silly, constant judgements on people you don't even know what their role in the body of Christ is.
Andy Kaufman would be proud of this comedy act.

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What a jumbled mess this is. Sorry, but I can't find your point in it.

What does any of this have to do with your claim of " its hard to glorify God when you put conditions on his word, and are sicker, poorer ,beat down and in worse condition than the sinner you are witnessing to"?

hopeinGod said:

I'm not speaking against the Lord. It is the methodologies and formulas that I speak to. "Who is he that sayeth it and it comes to pass when the Lord commands it not?" is a verse you will find in Lamentations.

Just because we speak something in an effort to see it come to us doesn't mean it's within the will of God or applicable to the season in which we find ourselves. We must be willing and able to discern the times and seasons the Lord has us in.

We are not into this walk to spend all of our time micromanaging the appropriation of blessings. Instead, we are told our greatest efforts should be placed in dying to ourselves, mortifying the deeds of the flesh, and conforming to Christ's image, that we may know Him.

There are lots of things God allows in our paths that He can use to aid in our sanctification or deliverance from the power of sin. Sure, it may be the devil that brings about a situation, and we will have a responsibility to tell him to flee.

But, if we are not aware that what is happening could also be the result of reaping what we've sown, or that God Himself sent us that situation with the intent of destroying what stands in the way of His building in us, then our discernment is pretty lopsided. Chasing the devil 24/7 because we can see no other influence, is not a balanced view of the workings and purposes of God.

Dave

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I agree that there seems to be a movement,that chases the devil 24/7.
They think every aspect of their lives is caused by Satan,or a blessing for battling him.
What a miserable,life to live it so conditionality and never grasping free will.
The truth is they give the devil as much glory as they give God,not of their own will but from falsehoods they are taught.
God bless you brother,I hope my Zeal has not offended.

Faulty said:

What a jumbled mess this is. Sorry, but I can't find your point in it.

What does any of this have to do with your claim of " its hard to glorify God when you put conditions on his word, and are sicker, poorer ,beat down and in worse condition than the sinner you are witnessing to"?

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Maybe I did not understand your statement.
I did not know if it was a general statement of your opinions of Word Of Faith believers.
My comparisons were to question those who consider other Faiths gospels of greed,when the critic has their own means of provision,but seeks to limit others.
I try to make a point that your heart is all that matters,how you view provision can be a double standard.
You can think riches is Godly and you would be placing them in your life above God.
You can wallow in the sin of self righteousness,by letting all know how good your self sacrifices are through your thrifty ways.
My post was a attempt to convey this and was in response to this statement you made
QUOTE:
Of course, if your message is "look and see all this cool stuff God gave me, He can give you stuff too", then yea, it would help being more healthy and wealthy as it would appeal more to their sin nature, but in the end, they'll still end up in hell because there is no forgiveness in health and wealth.

So forgiveness is subject to the act of sin,I do not consider prosperity a act of sin.
Do you consider prosperity a sin?
If so why,apart from what I have said in this post.
Do you think there could be a sin of oh how humble I am?
We are to give in secret,and will be rewarded openly.
So I do not judge a person by what they have,but I do look to see what fruit they have produced for Gods kingdom.
No disrespect intended Faulty, I enjoy your comments all through out the Forums
GOD BLESS.

now faith said:

Maybe I did not understand your statement.
I did not know if it was a general statement of your opinions of Word Of Faith believers.
My comparisons were to question those who consider other Faiths gospels of greed,when the critic has their own means of provision,but seeks to limit others.
I try to make a point that your heart is all that matters,how you view provision can be a double standard.
You can think riches is Godly and you would be placing them in your life above God.
You can wallow in the sin of self righteousness,by letting all know how good your self sacrifices are through your thrifty ways.
My post was a attempt to convey this and was in response to this statement you made
QUOTE:
Of course, if your message is "look and see all this cool stuff God gave me, He can give you stuff too", then yea, it would help being more healthy and wealthy as it would appeal more to their sin nature, but in the end, they'll still end up in hell because there is no forgiveness in health and wealth.

So forgiveness is subject to the act of sin,I do not consider prosperity a act of sin.
Do you consider prosperity a sin?
If so why,apart from what I have said in this post.
Do you think there could be a sin of oh how humble I am?
We are to give in secret,and will be rewarded openly.
So I do not judge a person by what they have,but I do look to see what fruit they have produced for Gods kingdom.
No disrespect intended Faulty, I enjoy your comments all through out the Forums
GOD BLESS.

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Exactly which part of this quote do you disagree with?

"Of course, if your message is "look and see all this cool stuff God gave me, He can give you stuff too", then yea, it would help being more healthy and wealthy as it would appeal more to their sin nature, but in the end, they'll still end up in hell because there is no forgiveness in health and wealth."

It caters to those who give into the lust of the eyes, to their vanity, and more directly to their greed.

If I were to provide the exact same type of temptation to a sex addict and say "look and see how handsome God made me, all the women want me now, He can make all the women want you too", would it be inappropriate in saying they will still end up in hell because there is no forgiveness in lust?

Of course not and yet it's the same statement, but concerning a different set of sins.

Besides, that wasn't my main point. The power of the gospel is in the words themselves, and not in the physical and material standing of the speaker. To say that one who is sickly and poor would be less fruitful than someone wealthy and in good health is just preposterous. It's not the man that gives the increase, but God who does so as He sees fit.

I never said prosperity was a sin, but it sure can be made that way, especially if it's thought of as making one more fit for being fruitful. That would assume a type of spiritual blessing on the accumulation of material possessions, and that's idolatry and probably even a bit of sorcery as well (especially when connected to 'positive confession' rituals), which are most certainly sins. Idolizing prosperity is very bad.

^^

Faulty said:

Exactly which part of this quote do you disagree with?

"Of course, if your message is "look and see all this cool stuff God gave me, He can give you stuff too", then yea, it would help being more healthy and wealthy as it would appeal more to their sin nature, but in the end, they'll still end up in hell because there is no forgiveness in health and wealth."

It caters to those who give into the lust of the eyes, to their vanity, and more directly to their greed.

If I were to provide the exact same type of temptation to a sex addict and say "look and see how handsome God made me, all the women want me now, He can make all the women want you too", would it be inappropriate in saying they will still end up in hell because there is no forgiveness in lust?

Of course not and yet it's the same statement, but concerning a different set of sins.

Besides, that wasn't my main point. The power of the gospel is in the words themselves, and not in the physical and material standing of the speaker. To say that one who is sickly and poor would be less fruitful than someone wealthy and in good health is just preposterous. It's not the man that gives the increase, but God who does so as He sees fit.

I never said prosperity was a sin, but it sure can be made that way, especially if it's thought of as making one more fit for being fruitful. That would assume a type of spiritual blessing on the accumulation of material possessions, and that's idolatry and probably even a bit of sorcery as well (especially when connected to 'positive confession' rituals), which are most certainly sins. Idolizing prosperity is very bad.

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Well I agree that if a brother has a weakness for a lust of something,a message could cause him to sin. The brother would have done this on his own if the Preacher had no knowledge of the brothers weakness.
Its like some Preachers obsession over how women dress,they keep that in front of the flock all the time. They talk about how pants look on a woman,and short sleeves,make up. I don't think they realize they are bringing things of that nature to some weak men all the time.
But I agree you cannot Preach a gospel of material reward to substitute salvation.
All the core of the WOF message is,sickness and poverty are not conditional for salvation.
Our commission is to Preach the Gospel ,the Good news of Christ,and you have to have the means to do that.
When you put limits on how much is enough,how big is your mission?
How much can you give and how much can you receive.
Our critics turn something very basic into a smear of lust and greed.
Your wrong to judge any man of God,its a hurdle for me as well some are just creepy.
But I don't know their heart I don't know what God knows about it.
If Satan is to deceive us,is it easy to catch is he that stupid?
They said Christ was the devil,they said he was a law breaker,what blinded them who blinded them? Jesus told them they were of their father the devil.
It does not matter anyway it just takes you away from your service wasting time condeming others.
Do think any thing or any one could keep a soul from the love of God or the drawing of the Holy Spirit?
Thank you brother see you next time

now faith said:

Mike , I did not know what WOF was for a long time.
I just thought the preachers I liked were Spirit filled, it was when I joined the forum that I noticed a conflict.

I am still not quite sure what the debate is about, other than some money preachers claiming Word of Faith.
It would help me if someone would provide some bullet points on the differences.

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Hello! I struggled with this exact problem 5 years ago when I stumbled here. After reading harsh attacks from both sides I decided that I am WoF in that I grew up on Hagan Sr, Nee, etc, but don't hold to the extreme views that some WoF here held (3 years ago) so I left. Actually several folks left because above all else we desired to learn from each other and our own interpretation, grow in faith together, and LOVE one another. I knew nothing of the disputes until I came here, and was nauseated at what I found. I pray you find your place, beit here or elsewhere. Remember that which you were raised in, judge all things according to scripture and allow Holy Spirit to be your reveler of truth. Eat the meat, and spit out the bones.

In Him,
LW

LeadWorship said:

Hello! I struggled with this exact problem 5 years ago when I stumbled here. After reading harsh attacks from both sides I decided that I am WoF in that I grew up on Hagan Sr, Nee, etc, but don't hold to the extreme views that some WoF here held (3 years ago) so I left. Actually several folks left because above all else we desired to learn from each other and our own interpretation, grow in faith together, and LOVE one another. I knew nothing of the disputes until I came here, and was nauseated at what I found. I pray you find your place, beit here or elsewhere. Remember that which you were raised in, judge all things according to scripture and allow Holy Spirit to be your reveler of truth. Eat the meat, and spit out the bones.

In Him,
LW

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Hello glad your back.
Dad Hagin to me is the core of Word of Faith,his teaching was profound in the truth he uncovered surpassing religious traditions.
Their have been some claim WOF that are not,since its a movement anyone can claim this.
Hagin even rebuked a lot of them,some came around others just used the name to buy air conditioned dog houses.
To me it is hard to be against a belief that stands on the promises of God,but they do by throwing the baby out with the bath water.
No matter what denomination you can find some who are evil period. God bless feel free to pm me if you want to talk about the great group we have now, we would be glad to have you back

LeadWorship said:

Hello! I struggled with this exact problem 5 years ago when I stumbled here. After reading harsh attacks from both sides I decided that I am WoF in that I grew up on Hagan Sr, Nee, etc, but don't hold to the extreme views that some WoF here held (3 years ago) so I left. Actually several folks left because above all else we desired to learn from each other and our own interpretation, grow in faith together, and LOVE one another. I knew nothing of the disputes until I came here, and was nauseated at what I found. I pray you find your place, beit here or elsewhere. Remember that which you were raised in, judge all things according to scripture and allow Holy Spirit to be your reveler of truth. Eat the meat, and spit out the bones.

In Him,
LW

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I don't know you but you deserve this>>

Qnts2 said:

Very good summary.

Just my own bit:

When I became familiar with the Charismatic church, one difference between Pentacostals like Assembly of God, and the Charismatic church was the belief that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was evidenced by the speaking in tongues. Early Charismatic churches disagreed with this and believed that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was not always accompanied by speaking in tongues, but could be evidenced by other gifts such as prophesy. The Charismatic church was heavy into prophesy and the gift of prophesy came more to the forefront.

I agree with you that Kenyon started the WOF movement. One of the teachings of Kenyon was that God spoke things into existence using faith and the available power. Christians are also about to use faith and the existing power to speak thinks into existence. Kenyon proposed that this ability made people 'little gods'. While I agree that Hagin Sr did not go to the metaphysical as much as Kenyon, I would disagree that he entirely avoided it. A friend gave me a Kenyon tape and I was very surprised to find him saying to have faith in faith. I think that is esentially the common error of WOF, to have faith in faith.

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Doesn't it say somewhere that God has given everyone a measure of faith? Having faith in the faith God gives me makes sense to me. And doesn't it say somewhere that we don't need more faith we just need to use the faith we've been given? Wouldn't that be like saying have faith in the faith you were given and don't go looking for more?

I agree it's quality over quantity.

GodismySalvation said:

Doesn't it say somewhere that God has given everyone a measure of faith? Having faith in the faith God gives me makes sense to me. And doesn't it say somewhere that we don't need more faith we just need to use the faith we've been given? Wouldn't that be like saying have faith in the faith you were given and don't go looking for more?

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Doesn't it say somewhere?
And you are forming opinions on Word Of Faith.

This may help some.

Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

What passed for good in European markets, hamburger, was recently found to be mere horesmeat and sold to unsuspecting customers. The same is very true with well intentioned assemblies and builders of them. They mean well at first, but then something causes them to keep the bills paid, the fame rising, the troops appearing.

I can't speak for others, but after many years among WOF proponents, I finally realized I was being fed horse meat. It takes a group with similar intent as the FDA to inspect the sort of doctrines that are being spoon fed to the masses, which we really don't have within the body of Christ.

Concern for error doesn't demand a response until people become spiritually sick in a large scale.
All of our Christian lives are a walk in time, which we are asked to be made well aware of.

Going from a baby in the Lord, to a child, to a strong young man/woman, then to a father/mother takes many, many years. Not one part of it is overnight. But instead, there are thousands of people thinking growth in Christ can be had through only one intense doctrinal dunking, when, as we see in Scripture a believer is able to forsake the whole counsel of God.

Back in the day during the late '40s, growing up in Boston, horse was generally available in the local markets as a more afforable "beef substitute". I liked it's flavor, and wish it was available these days.

In the '50s, One of the burger joints in Avon, MA sold a mixture of beef and horse that was delicious (with mayo, and a slice of Bermuda onion). I rather wish that the U.S. would get over it's silly "Ban" of horse products.

Well yehaw all we need now is a straw man.

Some folks can't tell when their being fed steak cause all their used to is horse meat.

Metaphors aside,Word of faith is a movement more than a denomination.
We have no great council to kick out the bad apples,or any one else who attaches to the name.

So I hear nonsensical fruit cakes on TV that hint at being WOF,but there are many others who are Bible based gifted teachers.

God bless.

I

No.

Faith.

Kenyon is related to New Thought- a stream from which flows Christian Science and Unity. It is NOT Christian or biblical at its root/heart/ foundation but has used Christian words to describe something else. I believe it is a stream that came forth during a real move of the Holy Spirit to counterfeit, pervert, and in some cases, pre-empt the real deal.

Instead of starting with WOF ideas/theology...lets start with the Word of God in which the focus is not - what I get- but knowing God more, Him being glorified, HIS will being done... The Lord's prayer is so far away in tone and substance from many of the WOF prayers....

I do believe that healing is for today and in the present gifts and ministry of the Holy Spirit as being a VITAL part of our walk. But what is the purpose of these gifts and ministry? To edify...to build up ourselves and one another.

The WOF - healing focus really brings one into a SELF or PROBLEM centered focus...

When I was not being healed of things, I'd wonder if I was saved. When others were healed...or experienced answered prayer- I'd feel JEALOUS. (!!) Like a little kid- why them Lord and not me? ! Very self centered....

Researching the roots/history of New Thought/WOF was helpful to me and I recommened it along with Christianity in Crisis by Hank Hannegraff. I'm hoping he is not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" but so far it seems pretty solid.

Google "ex word of faith" "ex word of faith preacher' ....There are many spiritually, physically and emotionally hurt people in this movement- and worse, people who have lost faith in the real Jesus.

But to your question...what IS biblical?

Our words are important...because it affects other people. We can encourage them or destroy them with criticism. This is love...Versus a source of spiritual power.

It's about the heart. Simon the magician wanted the power of the Holy Spirit for the wrong reasons... Speaking affirmations and such... I believe that this is New Age....I really don't see this idea conveyed consistently through the NT. I personally believe it's a form of witchcraft. It's one thing to say something because you know and believe it...from the heart. It's quite another to simply confess dozens of statements....even good and biblical things IF YOU DON'T REALLY BELIEVE OR KNOW IT...in order to MAKE IT HAPPEN THROUGH YOUR SPEECH.

Reading this the other day was an a-ha moment coming out of WOF:

WOF would say that EVERYONE has a gift of faith and EVERYONE has a gift of miracles and healing...! cor 12 seems to say other wise...and WHY. There is a Body and we are not meant to glorify one member....or one gift....above another....so that Jesus has the glory and pre-eminence.

1 Cor 12

7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.


15 Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” 22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, 24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, 25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. 26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? ( NO- is implied) 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.