Crossing yourself

Rising_Suns · Jun 24, 2005

I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Hebrew Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

Blessings,

-Davide

mesue · Jun 24, 2005

Rising_Suns said:
I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

Blessings,

-Davide

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek.

Rising_Suns · Jun 24, 2005

mesue said:
The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Greek.

Yes, I know this. What is your point?

mesue · Jun 24, 2005

Rising_Suns said:
I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Hebrew Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

Blessings,

-Davide

my point I bolded. But, I have to admit it looks quite silly. Sorry.
The manuscripts Rome used are just as old as the manuscripts anyone else used. So, I am compelled to ask, what's your point?

Carrye · Jun 24, 2005

I wrote a (short) paper on this for my Trinity class. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.

mesue · Jun 24, 2005

Carrye said:
I wrote a (short) paper on this for my Trinity class. Feel free to PM me if you're interested.

I appreciate the offer, however I will trust in God's word. But I really do appreciate your thoughtfulness and have no doubt that it's a most impressive paper.

RED that's ME · Jun 24, 2005

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Rising_Suns · Jun 24, 2005

mesue said:
my point I bolded. But, I have to admit it looks quite silly. Sorry.
The manuscripts Rome used are just as old as the manuscripts anyone else used. So, I am compelled to ask, what's your point?

My point was that God commanded people in the Old Testament to "mark" foreheads with a sign (a sign that happens to look like a cross). I thought I made this clear; ancient Hebrew has the letter "Taw", which is shaped like a "t".

My original point in using this passage, however, was just to show how God calls on us to do outward things. He could have just as easily looked into the hearts of those He wanted to save at passover, but instead He said to mark the blood of a lamb on their doorposts; again, another outward sign.

It was just a small appeal that I thought was pertinent to this topic of "crossing" oneself.

Blessings,

-Davide

Rising_Suns · Jun 24, 2005

Woops, sorry about that. I will leave so as not to distrub this thread any more.

Blessings,

-Davide

arunma · Jun 25, 2005

Canadian75 said:
There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

I remember reading some relatively early church fathers who advocated making the sign of the cross. Unfortunately, I can't remember which authors it was.

Anyway, I don't really see anything wrong with making the sign of the cross. I don't do it. But I'm not offended by Christians who do so. Like Saint Paul said: what you do, do for the Lord.

bleechers · Jun 26, 2005

We do NOT cross ourselves to "announce" to God that we are praying or in some superstitious belief that crossing ourselves accomplishes something. It is a way of recollecting oneself and bringing oneself into the realization of Paschal mystery which is the center of our Christian faith.

From catholic.org

One of the main teachings of the early Church Fathers is that the sign of the cross is a declaration of defense against the devil. When you sign yourself, you are declaring to the devil, "Hands off. I belong to Christ; he is my protection." It's both an offensive and defensive tool.

...

Q: Why do Catholics use the sign of the cross with holy water upon entering and exiting a church?

Ghezzi: In order to participate in the great sacrifice of the Mass, you need to be baptized. Using holy water to sign yourself is saying "I am a baptized Christian and I am authorized to participate in this sacrifice."

When you make the sign of the cross when you leave, you say that the Mass never ends -- your whole life is participating in Christ's sacrifice.

....

Ghezzi: I think that it's not something to be taken casually. The sign of the cross has enormous power as a sacramental; it does not cause the spiritual thing it signifies but draws on the prayer of the Church to affect us in our lives. The sign of the cross is the supreme sacramental.

...

Q: When did the sign of the cross originate?

Ghezzi: The sign of the cross is a very ancient practice and prayer. We don't have any indication of it in Scripture...

Underlined parts by me.. IOW - Why Baptists have no business participating in "crossing" ourselves.

arunma · Jun 26, 2005

bleechers said:
Underlined parts by me.. IOW - Why Baptists have no business participating in "crossing" ourselves.

What about Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, and others who don't view the ordinances (or "sacraments") in the same way as Roman Catholics? Since the opinions you quoted in your last post aren't recognized by any of them, can people from these denominations cross themselves?

bleechers · Jun 27, 2005

arunma said:
What about Lutherans, Episcopalians, Methodists, and others who don't view the ordinances (or "sacraments") in the same way as Roman Catholics? Since the opinions you quoted in your last post aren't recognized by any of them, can people from these denominations cross themselves?

For the last reason...

Ghezzi: The sign of the cross is a very ancient practice and prayer. We don't have any indication of it in Scripture...

The bigger question is why do these others do it? I don't know of any Methodists that do this, but the others didn't move very far from Rome when they left.

Since Baptists are not Protestants, we shouldn't take leftovers and force them on Christians.

ZiSunka · Jun 27, 2005

Rising_Suns said:
I am speaking of the ancient Hebrew alphabet, not today's modern Hebrew alphabet. There is a bg difference; today's Taw no longer looks cross-shaped.

This is the ancient Hebrew Taw (Tau in Greek) script;

Blessings,

-Davide

I'm looking at the ancient hebrew alphabet and the tav still doesn't look cross shaped. Whoever told you that the mark was a cross was fibbing to you.

bleechers · Jun 27, 2005

lambslove said:
I'm looking at the ancient hebrew alphabet and the tav still doesn't look cross shaped. Whoever told you that the mark was a cross was fibbing to you.

Good point.

But the ancient for "Tammuz" does have a "T" in Phoenecian.

ZiSunka · Jun 27, 2005

Ah! Phoencian! What part of the Bible is written in Phoencian?

arunma · Jun 27, 2005

bleechers said:
The bigger question is why do these others do it? I don't know of any Methodists that do this, but the others didn't move very far from Rome when they left.

Since Baptists are not Protestants, we shouldn't take leftovers and force them on Christians.

But let's be honest, here. A good number of the things we do aren't found in Scripture either. The charismatic practice of raising one's hands in the air during worship isn't found in Scripture (unless one uses an odd interpretation of Saint Paul's statement "lift up holy hands"). Infant dedication isn't found in Scripture. My church celebrates Advent, Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter. None of those things are found in Scripture, with the exception of Easter. And according to Scripture, even Easter should be celebrated on the Hebrew day of 14 Nisan; it was church tradition that fixed Easter on a specific day according to the solar calendar. For that matter, prayer in any language other than Hebrew or Greek isn't found in Scripture. Greek was the church's official language until Saint Victor the Bishop of Rome (or Pope, for all the Catholics out there) began writing in his native language of Latin.

Baptists might not be Protestants, but the Protestant reformation has had an impact on us. Most of the influential figures in Baptist thought (at least at my church), such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, were Protestants. And chances are, they probably crossed themselves. I do not despise church tradition, which is why I'm not against this practice.

I think we need to remember that sola scriptura doesn't mean that Scripture is the only thing we ever read. It means that Scripture is the only writing that is infallible. Certainly we can base our worship around tradition. The very idea of holding one church service a week, with worship songs and a sermon, come from the tradition of the Jews. Just because something isn't found specifically in Scripture doesn't make it bad. If that were so, we ought to burn every copy of The Purpose Driven Life, which many evangelicals are so fond of. So I'm not sure I can see what anyone would find so objectionable about crossing oneself.

Rising_Suns · Jun 27, 2005

lambslove said:
I'm looking at the ancient hebrew alphabet and the tav still doesn't look cross shaped. Whoever told you that the mark was a cross was fibbing to you.

See the last character.....

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_chart.html

Al

A Ox head Strong, Power, Leader Aleph [size=+2]א [/size]silent Bet

B, Bh Tent floorplan Family, House, In Beyt [size=+2]ב [/size]B, V Gam

G Foot Gather, Walk Gimal [size=+2]ג [/size]G Dal

D Door Move, Hang, Enterance Dalet [size=+2]ד [/size]D Hey

H, E Man with arms raised Look, Reveal, Breath Hey [size=+2]ה [/size]H Waw

W, O, U Tent peg Add, Secure, Hook Vav [size=+2]ו [/size]V, O, U Zan

Z Mattock Food, Cut, Nourish Zayin [size=+2]ז [/size]Z Chets

Hh Tent wall Outside, Divide, Half Chet [size=+2]ח [/size]Hh Thet

Th Basket Surround, Contain, Mud Tet [size=+2]ט [/size]T Yad

Y, I Arm and closed hand Work, Throw, Worship Yud [size=+2]י [/size]Y Kaph

K, Kh Open palm Bend, Open, Allow, Tame Kaph [size=+2]כ [/size]K, Kh Lam

L Shepherd Staff Teach, Yoke, To, Bind Lamed [size=+2]ל [/size]L Mem

M Water Chaos, Mighty, Blood Mem [size=+2]מ [/size]M Nun

N Seed Continue, Heir, Son Nun [size=+2]נ [/size]N Sin

S Thorn Grab, Hate, Protect Samech [size=+2]ס [/size]S Ghan

Gh Eye Watch, Know, Shade Ayin [size=+2]ע [/size]silent Pey

P, Ph Mouth Blow, Scatter, Edge Pey [size=+2]פ [/size]P, Ph Tsad

Ts Man on his side Wait, Chase, Snare, Hunt Tsade [size=+2]צ [/size]Ts Quph

Q Sun on the horizon Condense, Circle, Time Quph [size=+2]ק [/size]Q Rosh

R Head of a man First, Top, Beginning Resh [size=+2]ר [/size]R Shin

Sh Two front teeth Sharp, Press, Eat, Two Shin [size=+2]ש [/size]Sh, S Taw

T Crossed sticks Mark, Sign, Signal,

Canadian75 · Jun 28, 2005

arunma said:
But let's be honest, here. A good number of the things we do aren't found in Scripture either. The charismatic practice of raising one's hands in the air during worship isn't found in Scripture (unless one uses an odd interpretation of Saint Paul's statement "lift up holy hands"). Infant dedication isn't found in Scripture. My church celebrates Advent, Christmas, Holy Week, and Easter. None of those things are found in Scripture, with the exception of Easter. And according to Scripture, even Easter should be celebrated on the Hebrew day of 14 Nisan; it was church tradition that fixed Easter on a specific day according to the solar calendar. For that matter, prayer in any language other than Hebrew or Greek isn't found in Scripture. Greek was the church's official language until Saint Victor the Bishop of Rome (or Pope, for all the Catholics out there) began writing in his native language of Latin.

Baptists might not be Protestants, but the Protestant reformation has had an impact on us. Most of the influential figures in Baptist thought (at least at my church), such as Martin Luther and John Calvin, were Protestants. And chances are, they probably crossed themselves. I do not despise church tradition, which is why I'm not against this practice.

I think we need to remember that sola scriptura doesn't mean that Scripture is the only thing we ever read. It means that Scripture is the only writing that is infallible. Certainly we can base our worship around tradition. The very idea of holding one church service a week, with worship songs and a sermon, come from the tradition of the Jews. Just because something isn't found specifically in Scripture doesn't make it bad. If that were so, we ought to burn every copy of The Purpose Driven Life, which many evangelicals are so fond of. So I'm not sure I can see what anyone would find so objectionable about crossing oneself.

Well put. I couldn't agree more.

I still say if you want to cross yourself, go ahead. If not, then don't...but there is no need or reason to insist it is somehow a wrong or sinister practice.

Peace.

Ginny · Jun 28, 2005

arunma said:
But let's be honest, here. A good number of the things we do aren't found in Scripture either. The charismatic practice of raising one's hands in the air during worship isn't found in Scripture

Raising one's hands is the majority of the time (and should be) God led.I have done that during prayer feeling as if I am reaching out to God. I would do that on my own if never had been seen or "taught". That is God led...crossing one's self is a tradition that is "taught".

arunma said:
Infant dedication isn't found in Scripture.

Amen...nor will practicing it get this child any closer to Christ. Baptism is specifically appointed for those that consciously accept Christ. To do it anyway is a whole 'nother thread.

arunma said:
I do not despise church tradition, which is why I'm not against this practice.

Which is why I feel everything we do should be God led...just b/c it is tradition does not make it right. The same reason I would not practice "crossing myself" for the sake of not wanting to be perceived as Catholic. I feel we can all agree that for the most part, this is a Catholic tradition. Because of this reason, I would be deadset against it. For the sake of the rest of the world and what each individual's beliefs are, unless you want to be mistaken for another faith and the beliefs that go with that faith, then I would make sure we are to be led by God in the man made traditions that some "see nothing wrong with". If done openly, they could be a stumbling block, depending on your individual perception of the Catholic church and its' teachings coupled with your own ministry to the rest of the world that watches you.

arunma said:
So I'm not sure I can see what anyone would find so objectionable about crossing oneself.

Crossing yourself

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.

Weisenheimer

Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.

*~*God *IS* Love*~*

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

Flaming Calvinist

Christ Our Passover!

Flaming Calvinist

Christ Our Passover!

It means 'yellow dog'

Christ Our Passover!

It means 'yellow dog'

Flaming Calvinist

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

Peace-loving Warrior of God

I like to whisper, too!

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