Crossing the Line

[Aibrean]

First off, I don't think the church is meant to be a theatre in anyway. It's not a place for entertainment. There was a skit this Sunday about women who didn't get out in the world but lived in the church (literally). They started talking about the kitchen for food and the bathrooms and sleeping on the pews...but then I heard this which made my skin crawl...

"And then there were a couple times we almost got caught by Pastor Phil by washing our clothes in the baptismal font."

Since WHEN is baptism (and the tools to administrate) ever to be taken lightly as a joke? I was about ready to leave the service.

Should I send an email to the pastor? It's really bothering me...and the church (which is LCMS) is getting steadily more contemporary and liberal (we were at the TRADITIONAL service nonetheless!). We are attending a full confessional/liturgical LCMS church nearby next week.

To top it off they were talking about (in the skit) what a mess the building was in and that the windows were dirty and such...My husband was upset since he is the head custodian/maintenance manager.

I don't think this kind of skit was of any added value to the service and just disgusted us all.

 

[seajoy]

I totally agree with you. That was awful. What's up with skits in a worship anyway? (I'm WELS ).

I think that skit was way out of line......disrespectful and hurtful to your husband. I would for sure speak with the pastor. If he didn't know what the skit was going to have in it, he sure will check next time.

 

[porterross]

Welcome to my world. The local church here, and the core membership, simply don't get the importance of reverence and consistent adherence to traditional, liturgical practices. More and more, it had the atmosphere of a potluck in the sanctuary. I honestly found myself irritated and distracted during most of the service. I can't believe the few left there wonder why the church is dying.

 

[Zecryphon]

This is absolutely outrageous, blasphemous and disrespectful! I would recommend church discipline here. Talk to the pastor in person.

If he tells you "you're reading more into it" or "you're overreacting" or "you're taking it out of context." Take your husband and another witness to this debacle and speak to him again. If that doesn't work bring it before the church as a whole.

Doing laundry in the Baptismal Font is just utter disrespect for the Sacrament of Baptism and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Plus this whole skit seems to be mocking service to the church and sending the message that if you serve in any way, well you're just begging to be mocked in public.

What is happening to the LCMS? If this church is really going contemporary, what kind of people were they seeking to attract to the church with this vile and repugnant garbage? As furious as we all are, I think we need to pray for this church and it's leadership. They are being led down a dangerous path!

 

[faithrestored]

I have just found out that my new church(ELCA) is going to have skits that are centered around the lenten season and they are not at service time but at a seperate time in the middle of the week for people that want to attend them. You have every right to feel upset , its wrong to talk like that in any Christian faith. Its just plain rude at a time especially near lent which is a somber time or at any time. Its disrespectful and there are so many nice skits that could be done that would be uplifting to the church. You should tell the pastor and let them know and let the people who performed the skit that it upset you and that it wasnt appropriate content for church and remind them where they are when they are performing these things/ plays ..Good Luck and God Bless

 

[LutheranHawkeye]

...and there are actually people who say contemporary services are good for bringing people to the service and that they won't change anything. Substance and practice are so closely tied, it makes me ashamed of the growing contemporary movement in the LCMS. May God be with you and your husband Aibrean as you speak with your Pastor about these disgusting modernistic practices.

 

[Edial]

First off, I don't think the church is meant to be a theatre in anyway. It's not a place for entertainment. There was a skit this Sunday about women who didn't get out in the world but lived in the church (literally). They started talking about the kitchen for food and the bathrooms and sleeping on the pews...but then I heard this which made my skin crawl...

"And then there were a couple times we almost got caught by Pastor Phil by washing our clothes in the baptismal font."

Since WHEN is baptism (and the tools to administrate) ever to be taken lightly as a joke? I was about ready to leave the service.

Should I send an email to the pastor? It's really bothering me...and the church (which is LCMS) is getting steadily more contemporary and liberal (we were at the TRADITIONAL service nonetheless!). We are attending a full confessional/liturgical LCMS church nearby next week.

To top it off they were talking about (in the skit) what a mess the building was in and that the windows were dirty and such...[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]ed off my husband since he is the head custodian/maintenance manager.

I don't think this kind of skit was of any added value to the service and just disgusted us all.

I would be very curious to see what pastor's response to your e-mail would be.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[Jim47]

After telling the Pastor what he has done is an aborition of service to God I would leave and never come back. I've never heard of such a thing, purely shamefull.

 

[Anoetos]

Yeah, unfortunately I have to echo Porterross, "welcome to my world"...

We haven't had anything exactly like that, but my pastor and his "worship team" (gag) really like skits and such.

It's a travesty, blasphemous in fact...and what is worst of all is that people don't even realize it.

You should definitely make everyone aware of this sho should be aware of it, citing clearly your reasons for believing it to be wrong but my guess is that it won't make much of an impact within the congregation. The people who organize these sorts of things are generally pretty pusillanimous, they don't get this kind of junk going until they're quite sure the majority of the congregation is "ready" for it.

 

[joyfulthanks]

Sometimes, satire can say a lot. From Lark News - a Christian satirical website:

http://www.larknews.com/april_2005/secondary.php?page=3

Woman upset by theater mix-up

LANCASTER, Pa. — Maria Holsapple thought she was attending performances at the local community theater, but after twelve weeks, she was angered to learn she had been attending Oak Grove Center, a 3,000-member church.

"I would never willingly go into an evangelical church," says Holsapple, a practicing Catholic.

She came after Oak Grove mailed her "tickets" to upcoming "drama presentations." She enjoyed the "mini-concert, the play and the motivational speech they threw in at the end," she says.

"It worked well as performance art," she says. "I was convinced it was a groundbreaking new theater company."

But when neighbors remarked that they had seen her at church, Holsapple called Oak Grove and discovered it was a house of worship.

"The pastor quoted Jesus, but he quoted Socrates, too, and Britney Spears," she says. "How was I to know?"

 

[Aibrean]

I agree Aneotos...the congregation was laughing and even clapped at the end while I just sat in the pew in shock. I'm going to first write the pastor to find out whether he knew the contents of the skit beforehand. Then I will address why he allowed such content and if he didn't know, that I was ashamed to be a member of the church and tell him what everyone has said above (baptism is sacred, etc.).

 

[wildboar]

I would definitely be going to the liturgical/confessional church. The way that people worship and teach shows a lot about what they really believe about God. I would definitely recommend talking to your pastor about the issues you are concerned about first though. I've notice in other church bodies that churches will often start doing something in an attempt at church growth and end up driving people out. For those who do not have a liturgical/confessional church nearby, there's always the "weaker brother gambit" advocated by Priestmanship: http://priestmanship.blogspot.com/2008/01/oratio-meditatio-et-winkel.html It's written specifically for pastor's attending winkel but I think others could make good use of it:

However, in lieu of listing specific methods for each of these situations and attempting to anticipate others, we should focus on an overall technique: the Weaker Brother Gambit. This gambit can be play in a great many Winkel situations and, like all Gaul, is divided into three parts.

1. Captatio Benevolentiae. The first step to changing the behavior of your Winkelmates will be gaining their good will. Let us take the all too common problem of bizarre liturgies at Winkel as our test case. Here and elsewhere the Mr. Synod Ploy can be used to good effect. For a couple of Winkel meetings just mention in passing how you love LSB and think it's great that the whole Synod can finally be united under one hymnal, even if they don't all buy the new hymnal, since LSB brings together what's good in TLH and LW. Say, almost in passing, "Isn't it great that no matter what our individual parishes might do that's different, now when we gather together everyone can feel welcome and comfortable in a worship service they know and appreciate." Using this the day you host Winkel will be especially effective - during your happy friendly Mr. Synod welcome before the service, of course. For SLUP heavy Winkels you will want to invest in a burgundy polo with “the cross that doesn't” where the alligator should be – in more mixed Winkels, cuff links or a lapel pin will do.

2. Playing the Gambit Itself. After laying a good Mr. Synod foundation, at a subsequent Winkel, where the pastor has used a hymnal service, you say, "Brothers, you've heard me talk about how much I love the Synod's new hymnal for the unity it gives us, and I want to thank Brother Firstname for taking us through Divine Service I today. And I wanted to bring up something for you guys to think about. When I come to Winkel sometimes and one of the brothers leads us through a service that is not from the hymnal, but rather an order of service that's something that particular congregation has arranged, well, brothers, I just feel a little bit lost - I have a hard time worshiping when I'm trying to read the new words off the page and it's all just a little distracting for me. I know I'm probably the weak brother here, but if you would all prayerfully consider using one of the services from LSB (which, of course, include p. 15 from TLH and p. 158 from LW) during Winkel, it would mean a lot to me."

Note that throughout the actual playing of the gambit you are, of course, taking care to

3. Speak Pietistisch. The repetition of "brother" and "prayerfully" as well as "pray about" are vital.

The Winkelmates are now disarmed. If an unpriestman should attempt to respond to the gambit with the Adiaphora Trump, a simple redoubling of the Weaker Brother Gambit is an adequate response: “Oh, yes, Brother Firstname, I freely admit that you do in fact have the Christian freedom to do otherwise. I'm simply letting you know how I feel and asking a favor. Like I said, I think I'm the weaker brother here: it's a shortcoming on my part. But try as I might, I just can't seem to get in a worshipful mood apart from a liturgy I know.”

Thus the tables are turned. It is usually the case that the unfaithful, liturgy-creating pastor wins the day be being impervious to reason. “Adiaphora!” is their cry and it is unassailable in the final outcome. The faithful pastor can prove the fellow wrong every day of the week and twice ad Mautinas Dominicae but the behavior never changes. But now, through the Weaker Brother Gambit, the priestman has turned this to his favor. Reason has been banished in favor of Feeling. As far too many faithful pastors have found: one cannot argue against feelings. The Winkelmates must either capitulate or refuse to help out the Weaker Brother, which is not Nice. Thus, even in the few cases where a Winkelmate or two will do the Unnice thing, the priestman will have won overall Niceness3) points to be bartered upon at a later date.

 

[synger]

And yet, I've also seen "skits" done tastefully and respectfully. Our church sometimes has them during the Advent and Lenten Wednesday night services. They are done from the choir loft in the back (usually by choir members recruited), and are like mini "radio plays"... no props or anything, just voice acting. They are done before the service starts, and they take the place of the normal blurb in the bulletin before the service which introduces the idea of the Scripture lesson for the service. It's more of a preparation for the service than an interruption of it. The rest of the service is liturgical.

 

[Lupinus]

My church has them to. However, I have yet to see anything actually bad in the skits. While I don't care for the idea of skits during service, so long as none of its contents are disrespectful I don't mind to much. But that one would have me talking to my Pastor in a heart beat.

 

[Phoebe]

It sounds like the women had as much class as a group of retired teachers.
Our kids performed a Reformation skit, but it was used to show what the children had learned. Nothing offensive.

 

[Aibrean]

Well the only other LCMS within 20 minutes drive is fully confessional/liturgical (they do the divine mass). We will be attending next week. I'm going to send an email to my pastor tonight.

 

[seajoy]

Well the only other LCMS within 20 minutes drive is fully confessional/liturgical (they do the divine mass). We will be attending next week. I'm going to send an email to my pastor tonight.

We drive 35 minutes one way, to our church. Sometimes it's what you gotta do.

 

[DaRev]

The Sunday before Christmas our Sunday school kids did a "musical" Christmas program during the church service. I allowed it since I am new here. While it wasn't anything that could be considered offensive, it wasn't appropriate for a worship service. When the Sunday School superintendant mentioned their desire to something similar for Easter, I told them that it wasn't to be done during the worship service. We have an auditorium in our education building with an attached kitchen. We'll be doing the Easter program in conjunction with a potluck dinner on a Sunday afternoon, tentatively scheduled for the Sunday after Easter. They didn't give much of any resistance to this. It's important to maintain the integrity of the Mass, especially for visitors to the church. We had several visitors prior to Christmas, but none have returned. Not to difficult to understand why.

 

[Phoebe]

I agree about the Christmas program. My congregation began doing it during the worship service again. If I were only able to attend that one Sunday in December, I'd want a regular worship service.

 

[joyfulthanks]

I've just escaped from the world described in the satire I posted earlier. Having recently found my way into a confessional/liturgical haven, I'm very skittish about any movement in the oppposite direction.

Perhaps I'm too skittish about movement in that direction, but after you've been fed a steady diet of primarily cotton candy for a number of years with almost no meat, the very thought of even a single bite of cotton candy can make you violently ill.

The problem with "crossing the line" as you called it in the OP, is that many times, once congregations cross that line, they lose all sense of propriety in worship, and keep going further and further in that direction, until finally, they are almost unrecognizable as being Christian at all.