Cross saying jesus not messiah?

[DawudIslam]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, Arial, Helvetica]Muhammad(saw) was prophesied in the Old Testament:

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Isaiah 42 describes Muhammad​

1- Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Until "...delighted"
If we consider "mine elect" as a noun then Mine elect = God's elect = Mustafa (in Arabic) the name of our Prophet Muhammad Mustafa (SAV). Otherwise it is true for all prophets of God.
After "..delighted..."
All prophets after Jacob (pbuh) mentioned in the Bible came for Israelites not Gentiles. This includes Jesus (pbuh) (look Matthew 15:21-26, Matthew 10:5-6 and many more). And Jesus (pbuh) did not stay on earth long enough to do that. But Muhammad (pbuh) was a Gentile and he brought message and judgment to Gentiles first.

2- He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heart in the street.
Here the word "not cry" is used as "not complain about the duty that I gave him" because we see in verse 13 God says "... he shall cry". There is a difference between these two using of the word cry. Now if we read your Bible Matthew 26:39-42, we can not say that Jesus (pbuh) never complained.
But if you read the life of Muhammad (pbuh) , the history of Islam you cannot find even one complaining word of Muhammad (pbuh) about the mission (duty) that given by God Almighty.

3- A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
This is true almost all prophets.

4- He shall not fall nor be discouraged, till he had set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Until "earth:"
Jesus (pbuh) couldn't finish his mission which had continued only for ~3 years. He fall and discouraged (you will find many places in NT about this) and he couldn't set judgment in the earth, because his followers were a few and they had little faith (you will find many places in NT about this). And yet they "forsook him and fled" at the time that Roman soldiers came to arrest Jesus (pbuh). And Jesus (pbuh) himself says "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence " John 18:36
But Muhammad established a state and ruled with his law that given by God. Therefore he set judgment in the earth and he did not fall and he was not discouraged.
After "earth:"
Here God says "his law", and in verse 9 says "former things come to pass". This means that he (new prophet) will bring new law. But if we read the Bible again, we see that Jesus (pbuh) says Matthew 5:17 "Think not I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but fulfill". And if we read further we understand that Jesus (pbuh) did not come with new law.
But Muhammad (pbuh) came with new law.

5- Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which come out of it ; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein;

6- I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.
Muhammad (pbuh) is a descendent of Abraham (pbuh) and came to Gentiles.

7- To open blind eyes, to bring out prisoners from prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
"To open blind eyes". If we read verse 19 we will see more clearly that the word blind is used as idiom.
Meaning, he will show people the things that they did not know and will show people how to comprehend God and His message.
Prison is used as an idiom too. If a spirit doesn't know God and doesn't obey Him, then that spirit is in prison of Satan, and that person is prisoner of Satan. By accepting oneness of God and by obeying Him, the spirit of a person will be free and this makes that person free from prison of Satan. And in verse 8 God clearly states what He meant.

8- I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
(With explanation of verse 7) we understand that the person that God is talking about will come to a place that people worship idols as their gods. If we read verse 17, we may understand this better.
From verses 7 and 8, we understand that God is not talking about Jesus (pbuh) but Muhammad (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) came to Israelites and they were not worshipping idols. But Muhammad (pbuh) came during the Jahilliya (ignorance) period of Arabs and destroy the idols. If we read verse 17, it will be understood more clearly.

9- Behold, the former things come to pass, the new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
As we read in verse 4 and my explanation of it, the person, God is talking about, will come new law. And this person cannot be Jesus (pbuh) because of the reasons stated above. This person is nobody but prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

10- Sing unto the Lord a new song, and his praise, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles and inhabitants thereof.

If you want to hear this new song please listen to someone reciting the Qur'an. The new song that God talking about is Noble Qur'an. If you hear how people recite the Noble Qur'an, you will understand what God is talking about.

 

[DawudIslam]

- Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

12- Let them give glory unto the Lord, and declare his praise in the islands.
Kedar is son of Ishmael (pbuh) (Genesis 25:13-16), and has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh). This verse (verse 11) is not talking about Jesus (pbuh) but Muhammad (pbuh). As you know Muhammad (pbuh) is descendent of Abraham (pbuh) through Ishmael (pbuh). And the cities that they inhabited are in Arabia namely Telma (Tema/Teman), Yathrib (Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah), Paran (Makkah) etc. And if you observe the ritual of Muslims (especially during Hajj), you will see that cities (Makkah and Al-Madinah) lift up their voices** and people shout and glorify Allah from top of mountains, especially Mt. Arafat**. The rock is the rock that God sent to Adam from heaven, and it is located at the side of Kaba. As you know Muslim people make 7 tours around Kaba and kiss this rock while glorifying the Lord.
**in fact, you can see this in every Muslim country, when people are called to prayer, muezzins read the Adhan (calling to prayer) that sounds like a song. And even far from city you can hear this Adhan, it will look like that city lifted up its voice. Meaning of Adhan is
Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest
Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest
I'm witness that there is no god but Allah
I'm witness that there is no god but Allah
I'm witness that Muhammad is His messenger
Come to prayer, come to prayer
Come to salvation, come to salvation
Allah is the greatest, Allah is the greatest
There is no god but Allah.


13- The Lord shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies.


14- I have long time holding my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing women; I will destroy and devour at once.
Until Islam, God had never ordered any prophets to fight against unbelievers to destroy them. Believer were fighting only to defense themselves. But Allah ordered Muhammad (pbuh) to fight against unbelievers, and slay them if they don't accept Allah. And if you study the life of Muhammad (pbuh) you will see that he was the commander of the army and he fought with his sword and he lost one of his teeth during the war. And God destroyed unbelievers at once (with only during of one prophet).


15- I will make waste mountains and hills, and dry up all their herbs; and I will make the rivers islands, and I will dry up the pools.
Here God is talking about deserts of Arabia. In desert place, mountains and hills of sand are not steady, they diminish with winds and another one appears. And you can not find rivers but small water islands as described by God.
Also this verse has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh)


16- And I will bring blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked thins straight. These things I will do unto them, and not forsake them.


As God says above, He did not send to pagan Arabs until Muhammad (pbuh) as stated in verse 22. Until Muhammad (pbuh), Arabs were worshipping idols, killing baby girls, drinking alcohol, gambling etc. Allah a way (Islam, unity of God) that they did not know, made Qur'an and Muhammad (pbuh) guided (as light before) them, and made crooked things (mentioned above) straight.
This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).


17- They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that they say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.


This is exactly what pagan Arabs did, when they heard the message that given to Muhammad (pbuh) by God. They offered money, authority and many things to our prophet and he did not accept any of them. They ashamed, because they thought that all other Arabs will mock them, and will not visit the Kaba (at that time they were using Kaba as place of the idols that all other Arab tribes were using) and this would be their economic end. And they turned graven images and they asked help from those images.
This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).


18- Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see.


19- Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant?


20- Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not.
In this verses God talks to Christians and Jews.
In verse 18: Hear you (Christians and Jews) deaf, and look you (Christians and Jews) blind, you may see that above things are happening every day in Islamic world.
In verse 19: God says, "Who is blind or deaf? My messenger (Muhammad (pbuh) and his followers) or you?
In verse 20: You do see these things but you don't pay attention, you don't comprehend. You do hear the Qur'an and you know that Muslims sing new song and Muslim cities lift up their voices and they shout from top of mountains, they glorify Me, but you don't pay attention, you don't comprehend.
Indeed, Christians and Jews think that Muslims do not see the right path (blind). Even you wrote that "What Muslims do not understand...".
These verses also have nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh).

21- The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
In Qur'an many places Allah calls Prophet as "My friend" (friend is not exactly translation for Habeeb/Habib, because Habeeb is closer then friend but I couldn't find another word for this). And He magnified the law and people still follow his law. Jesus did not bring new law, and non of the Christians follows the law that he was following.
This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh)


22- But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.
In this verse God talks about corrupted society of pagan Arabs. And, indeed, He had not send any prophets to Arabs until Muhammad (pbuh). That's why "none saith, Restore". But up to Jesus (pbuh), many prophets had been send to Israelites.
This verse also has nothing to do with Jesus (pbuh)


23- Who among you will give ear to this? who will hearken and hear for the time to come?
Who will become Muslim?


May the Peace and blessings of Allah be upon you

Your brother( me, lol)



DawudIslam



Bye.

 

[ebia]

The Idea is that Allah will address even the smallest short lasted sects, for Allah, Sees and Hears all.

But he hasn't. He has addressed one small, atypical, Christian sect, ignored the rest, and didn't even get that one right.

So it is not a Misunderstanding or contradiction rather a Clarification

LOL.

 

[WarEagle]

Hi, I as muslim believe jesus ( peace be upon him) is the REAL Messiah.
And so do Christians, however, Christians seem to contradict this, as you believe he was crucified, Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail

He did prevail. Three days later, after going to fulfill the Messianic prophecy of preaching to the faithful Jews who had died, He prevailed over death and Hell by being raised from the dead.

now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

Actually, if only you would read the Bible, you would see that they wanted to kill Him because they believed He blasphemed when He claimed to be God.

Muslim hold the view that he was not crucified, but it was Judas or someone else

Except that the Bible tells us that Judas was already dead by that time.

or the whole thing was just an ''illusion'' so to speak

How, exactly, does one nail an "illusion" to a tree?

Since Christianity is based on the crucifiction of jesus, it would be denying him his right of being the Messiah, but jesus clearly said he was the Messiah but NEVER said he was God, or begotten son of God.

Don't know what Bible you're reading, but Jesus claimed to be God and begotton of God many times. That's why the Jews wanted Him dead.

 

[Lukaris]

We Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant) understand that only through Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God the Father who has restored our access to the Father by the Holy Spirit that proceeds from the Father. "For through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit (the Holy Spirit) unto the Father." (Ephesians 2:18). Our scriptures are uncorrupted and the revelation complete we cannot entertain any other concepts that developed afterward (see Revelation 22:19). There are serious divisions among Christians but this truth is basic & understood. Peace be to all.

 

[plmarquette]

Hi, I as muslim believe jesus ( peace be upon him) is the REAL Messiah.
And so do Christians, however, Christians seem to contradict this, as you believe he was crucified, Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail, now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

Muslim hold the view that he was not crucified, but it was Judas or someone else, or the whole thing was just an ''illusion'' so to speak
( one of the three). Confirming that Jesus was the Messiah, because he was never put on the cross as Allah( God) did not let him to be humiliated in that manner.

What do you think?

Since Christianity is based on the crucifiction of jesus, it would be denying him his right of being the Messiah, but jesus clearly said he was the Messiah but NEVER said he was God, or begotten son of God.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you

Your Brother,

Dawud Islam

as you believe in fulfilment of prophecy and the 12 Imam....

the old covenant speaks of the Messiah to come...
betrayal for 30 pieces of silver -zechariah
looking upon he whom you have pierced-zechariah
bruised for our iniquity
by his stripes we are healed isaiah
abandoned by people
wounded in his hands -zechariah
led as a sheep to the slaughter -psalms

we believe that the cross was fortold and Jesus was lifted up as Moses lifted up the serpent on the pole, the ultimate personal sacrifice for all men , as we are asked mutually to die to self, to do alms, pilgrimage, to strengthen our witness and our faith ...
shabat shalom

 

[ChristIsTHEKing]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Well, as NO PROPHET ever physically saw God and Muhammad(saw) never claimed seeing Him on Earth, ever,, i wouldn't say Muhammad (saw) was wrong, the fact that Muhammad(Saw) preformed miracles such as only prophets would do e.g. : providing water from his hands for the thursty, splitting the moon, curing the blind, and more over the Quran being the biggest miracle granted to him and his people.

All it takes is one failed prophecy to go from prophet to one of us.

why the Quran ?

It is so advanced in language that it is only and can only be from God, an example is the FACT that ALL jewish scholars MUST know Quranic arabic before they can be scholars, the reason being that the quranic arabic holds the key to the revival of the old testament e.g.

I've heard something similar, that unless you've read the quran in arabaic then you really haven't read the quran. Isn't allah known as the god to all people? So unless someone has the inclination, the ability and the time to learn arabaic and read the quran then they have no way of really knowing the word of allah?
Secondly, from what I know, the language itself had to be modified just to incorporate the grammar errors found in the quran. Is this part of the advancement you speak of?
I would also add that no one is allowed to critique the quran. Several muslim scholars wrote books on this and they now can't be found. We allow the Bible to be critiqued and it should be.

As Muhammad (SAW), as a FACT was a direct descendant of Abraham(as) through Ismeal(as). AND the fact that Paul WAS NOT, makes it easier for us to decide which one is lying about jesus, and let us not forget, Paul NEVER saw Jesus. physically, Muhammad(saw), saw Gabriel(as) in physical form, just like the prophets before e.g. Abraham, jacob, Moses, NONE of them EVER claimed to have seen, God, NO MAN CAN in earth.

Why would you believe paul who is not a descendant of Abraham, has not seen Jesus (as) physically, spoken with him or prayed or walked with him? he wasn't even one of his disciples, the fact is that the books of the new testament were ALL written by people who have never seen Jesus Christ(AS).

I never said that God must show Himself to anyone fully, nor would He because of His Glory. So you're saying that God can't use anyone He chooses to do His will? All of the disciples were ordinary men. God is sovereign and unchangeable.
So you're saying that the disciples never saw Jesus? Like I said, either all of the Bible or none of it.

There can only be one Truth, and I hope you find it.

 

[Lukaris]

The OP & his following posts rationalize prophecy from the Holy Bible pointing to a final (& false) prophet who is a man. Supposedly the Holy Scriptures are corrupted but yet can be rationalized to deny the very faith they represent. There is a forceful Trinitarian prophecy in Isaiah 48:16: "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent Me." (New King James V.) This is the word of God, the Son of the Holy Trinity speaking. Unfortunately some other Biblical translations I have seen fail to clarify this properly as it is in the King James & New KJ versions. When one sees St. Paul's scripture in Epesians 2:18: "For through Him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit (the Holy Spirit) to the Father."

 

[MtSugarloaf]

Hi, I as muslim believe jesus ( peace be upon him) is the REAL Messiah.
And so do Christians, however, Christians seem to contradict this, as you believe he was crucified, Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail, now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

Muslim hold the view that he was not crucified, but it was Judas or someone else, or the whole thing was just an ''illusion'' so to speak
( one of the three). Confirming that Jesus was the Messiah, because he was never put on the cross as Allah( God) did not let him to be humiliated in that manner.

What do you think?

Since Christianity is based on the crucifiction of jesus, it would be denying him his right of being the Messiah, but jesus clearly said he was the Messiah but NEVER said he was God, or begotten son of God.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you

Your Brother,

Dawud Islam

I can see how you can come to the opinion that Jesus never claimed that He was God, because it is not written in the Koran and you believe the Bible to be filled with holes. It is also for this reason (though reversed) that Christians reject the notion of Muhammad being a prophet or being mention in Scripture (we believe the Koran to be inaccurate and not of divine revelation and that the prophecies in the Old Testament look forward to the Greatest Prophet, the Son of God, Jesus).

So it is illogical for us to argue over such things because we'll go no where.

However, I would like to talk about the concept of Jesus being the Messiah. I am glad that we both agree on this point; but what does the term 'Messiah' mean to you? What do you believe the 'Messiah' was to accomplish?