Cross saying jesus not messiah?

[DawudIslam]

Hi, I as muslim believe jesus ( peace be upon him) is the REAL Messiah.
And so do Christians, however, Christians seem to contradict this, as you believe he was crucified, Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail, now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

Muslim hold the view that he was not crucified, but it was Judas or someone else, or the whole thing was just an ''illusion'' so to speak
( one of the three). Confirming that Jesus was the Messiah, because he was never put on the cross as Allah( God) did not let him to be humiliated in that manner.

What do you think?

Since Christianity is based on the crucifiction of jesus, it would be denying him his right of being the Messiah, but jesus clearly said he was the Messiah but NEVER said he was God, or begotten son of God.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you

Your Brother,

Dawud Islam

 

[HypnoToad]

You say Jesus can't be the Messiah if He was crucified because crucifixion means He didn't "prevail".

What you forget (by choice or not, I don't know) is that Jesus DID prevail by resurrecting shortly thereafter, which nullifies your argument.

 

[ChristIsTHEKing]

Hello Dawud,

You are correct in stating the Christian faith holds that Jesus was crucified on the cross. You are also correct that in that time, crucifixation was a very demeaning way to be put to death. But I would refer you to Phillipians 2:5

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We believe that Christ humbled himself when he took the form of man, born in a dirty stall and continued that way of life all the way to death. The Son while being equal as God, submitted himself in this way under the Father. Christ is the living God, he died but rose again thus his victory was won. His kingdom was not of this world but over everything He was given. Without the cross, death and resurrection there is no hope in eternal life and our faith would be for not.

You stated that Jesus never said He was God, that is a classic response from muslim scholars, unfortunately for those asking it is incorrect.
I give you following:

John 14:20-21
20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 11
25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[b] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

(He never corrected her, which if incorrect would make Him a deceiver.)

John 10
Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father."

Jesus confirmed and never denied that He was the Son of God, which of course makes Him God.

Hope this helps. I encourage you to seek out scholars near you who are not muslim and ask them questions that you may have. I hope that you find the Truth.

God Bless

 

[prophecystudent]

Hi, I as muslim believe jesus ( peace be upon him) is the REAL Messiah.
And so do Christians, however, Christians seem to contradict this, as you believe he was crucified, Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail, now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

Jesus was crucified, and He is the Messiah. The Old testament has many prophecies regarding this.

You see, Christ does/did prevail. He was resurrected from the dead after His crucifixtion and that gave Him the victory and allows the payment for our sins.

If He had not been resurrected, then you would have a point, but in that case, there would be no "Christianity" as nobody would believe that all those prophecies in the Old Testament had actually come true. The fact that those prophecies did come true prove that Jesus is who He said He was/is.

By His crucifixtion and resurrection He won the battle against our eternal damnation by paying the blood price for our sins. As the bible says, He did it, once for all. It is a free gift, all we have to do is accept it.


Muslim hold the view that he was not crucified, but it was Judas or someone else, or the whole thing was just an ''illusion'' so to speak
( one of the three). Confirming that Jesus was the Messiah, because he was never put on the cross as Allah( God) did not let him to be humiliated in that manner.

God didn't "let" Jesus be crucified, God sent Him here precisely for that reason. Christ took part in the creation of all that was created. God knew that mankind would sin, and provided a solution for that sin. That solution is Christ.

There is no doubt that Christ was the one crucified, or that He rose again on the third day. He ministered to His disciples for some 40 days after the resurrection and was seen by hundreds of people. Historical records show that Jesus existed, that He was crucified and that many people reported seeing Him after the resurrection. His blood, and humiliation, are what paid the price for our salvation.
What do you think?

Since Christianity is based on the crucifiction of jesus, it would be denying him his right of being the Messiah, but jesus clearly said he was the Messiah but NEVER said he was God, or begotten son of God.

I am afraid you are mistaken. Jesus did, in fact, refer to His Father in heaven several times. Plus, He allowed people to call Him the Messiah as well. You must read more of the bible to get the full context of Christ's statements and to follow the logic.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you

Your Brother,

Dawud Islam

Welcome to the forum. I am pleased to be able to exchange thoughts and facts about Jesus with you.

Peace to you, and God Bless you.

Fred

 

[DawudIslam]

Hi, its nice to see these welcoming replies.

I as muslim believe in everything jesus did and said so much so that i swear would sacrifice myself for him if i was there with him. Because i love him just like i love Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad(saw) etc.

we as muslims believe that the Gospel preached by jesus would be the Complete and Absolute Word of God Word for Word, it is the prophets' word or anyone else's i.e. God addressing the people direct

example :
Verse 2:152
Then do ye remember Me; I will remember you. Be grateful to Me, and reject not Faith.

Verse 2:151
A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.

(Quran)

its shouldnt be as the gospels are today, being ''told'' as story by their writers e.g. :

(mark 8) 22They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought a blind man and begged Jesus to touch him. 23He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"

its shouldn't be like this if it was the Word of God , we as muslims have something similiar to this but it is not in the quran and is not the word of God but his prophet(saw) it is called ~Ahadiths, looks like this:

The Prophet Muhammad(saw) is reported to have said :
"That person is nearest to God, who pardons…him who would have injured him."

for a statement to be included in here it needs to follow certain rules of validation and event then we say not that it is the word of God because it is not. Christians( no offense) don't have this kind of separation, the Gospel according to's are the word of people who have never seen Jesus or spoken with him in islam if it is not the word of the prophet or God we don't need it.
regarding the claim of jesus being son of God, this is a term used by the hebrews signifying that a person is saintly or righteous in NO way should it be taken literal.

For instance:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalm 82:6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
Exodus 7:1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you [as] God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.[/FONT]
As you can see there are many instances where people are being called gods, however Jesus being more humbler as a true Messiah says he is the son of God according to the scripture, this means that he is even lower than that and that he fears of blasphemy, something the jews of old wanted to hang on him. Every instance of jesus being called divine is by someone else like Paul or John, he would never say such a thing and there is not a single verse in the bible where he says i am god.

The Quran says:

“This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.”
Chapter 3, Verse 59

“And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: ''Glory to Thee ! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit `Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.”

Chapter 5, Verses 116-117
man i' m tired......

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you

Your Brother,

Dawud Islam

 

[ebia]

Hi, I as muslim believe jesus ( peace be upon him) is the REAL Messiah.
And so do Christians, however, Christians seem to contradict this, as you believe he was crucified, Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail, now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

And that's the whole point. That's why Peter, John, etc couldn't understand what he was on about when he (repeatedly) told them he was going to die. Much of Jesus' ministry is about saying "you've misunderstood what it means to be the messiah", "you've misunderstood what it means to prevail", "you misunderstood how God will deal with what's wrong with the world", "you haven't understood how humilty and servanthood is a good thing". The cross would, indeed, have proved he wasn't the messiah if it wasn't for the resurrection.

Muslim hold the view that he was not crucified, but it was Judas or someone else, or the whole thing was just an ''illusion'' so to speak
( one of the three).

The trouble is that new testament and all the early christian communities make no sense without the resurrection. They are fundamentally based upon that. If Jesus didn't defeat death by going through death and out the other side he didn't achieve anything - he was just as much a failed messiah as any of the others.

Confirming that Jesus was the Messiah, because he was never put on the cross as Allah( God) did not let him to be humiliated in that manner.

And there you've made the same mistake that Jesus tried so hard to correct - that humility is a bad thing.

What do you think?

Since Christianity is based on the crucifiction of jesus, it would be denying him his right of being the Messiah,

On the contrary, it corrects, joins the dots, and completes the idea of what it means to be the Messiah.

but jesus clearly said he was the Messiah but NEVER said he was God, or begotten son of God.

Maybe, maybe not, but he quite deliberately did and said things that only YHWH could do and say.

Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon you

and on you.

 

[ebia]

Hi, its nice to see these welcoming replies.

I as muslim believe in everything jesus did and said so much so that i swear would sacrifice myself for him if i was there with him. Because i love him just like i love Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad(saw) etc.

we as muslims believe that the Gospel preached by jesus would be the Complete and Absolute Word of God Word for Word, it is the prophets' word or anyone else's i.e. God addressing the people direct

example :
Verse 2:152
Then do ye remember Me; I will remember you. Be grateful to Me, and reject not Faith.

Verse 2:151
A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Apostle of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge.

(Quran)

its shouldnt be as the gospels are today, being ''told'' as story by their writers e.g. :

(mark 8) 22They came to Bethsaida, and some people brought a blind man and begged Jesus to touch him. 23He took the blind man by the hand and led him outside the village. When he had spit on the man's eyes and put his hands on him, Jesus asked, "Do you see anything?"

its shouldn't be like this if it was the Word of God , we as muslims have something similiar to this but it is not in the quran and is not the word of God but his prophet(saw) it is called ~Ahadiths, looks like this:

You are right in implying that Islam has a very different understanding of what it means to be "the word of God" to Christianity. That doesn't make the Islamic understanding the correct one.

The Prophet Muhammad(saw) is reported to have said :
"That person is nearest to God, who pardons…him who would have injured him."

for a statement to be included in here it needs to follow certain rules of validation and event then we say not that it is the word of God because it is not. Christians( no offense) don't have this kind of separation, the Gospel according to's are the word of people who have never seen Jesus or spoken with him in islam if it is not the word of the prophet or God we don't need it.

Christians recognise God working in much more subtle and powerful ways.

the Gospel according to's are the word of people who have never seen Jesus or spoken with him

If the traditional authorships are correct, this is simply not true. "Mark's" gospel is Peter's account of events. "John" is 'the beloved disciple', and Luke's is the collected accounts of those who were there, including Mary and the disciples. In any case they are the written products of the oral traditions of those who did know Jesus.

regarding the claim of jesus being son of God, this is a term used by the hebrews signifying that a person is saintly or righteous in NO way should it be taken literal.

Yes and no. You are correct in implying that it wouldn't be taken as literally true in 2nd temple Jewish thinking, but it becomes literally true in Jesus of Nazareth.

For instance:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Psalm 82:6[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Exodus 7:1[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I make you [as] God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet.[/FONT]
As you can see there are many instances where people are being called gods, however Jesus being more humbler as a true Messiah says he is the son of God according to the scripture, this means that he is even lower than that and that he fears of blasphemy, something the jews of old wanted to hang on him. Every instance of jesus being called divine is by someone else like Paul or John, he would never say such a thing and there is not a single verse in the bible where he says i am god.

Not in so many words, no. But it's a necessary conclusion to what he said and did. But, of course, if you don't trust anything written by 'Mark', 'Matthew', "Luke", Paul or John then you don't know anything much about Jesus of Nazareth at all. If you reduce the bible to the bits where people are directly quoting God you have very little left (the bible is God speaking, but not in that sort of way), but even the bits you would have make no sense unless Jesus was the crucified and resurrected messiah, fully man and fully God.

 

[ebia]

“And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: ''Glory to Thee ! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Should add, that it's in comments like this where the Quran looses all credibility when it comes to talking about Christianity, because Christianity has never held Mary to be part of the Godhead.

 

[DawudIslam]

And that's the whole point. That's why Peter, John, etc couldn't understand what he was on about when he (repeatedly) told them he was going to die. Much of Jesus' ministry is about saying "you've misunderstood what it means to be the messiah", "you've misunderstood what it means to prevail", "you misunderstood how God will deal with what's wrong with the world", "you haven't understood how humilty and servanthood is a good thing". The cross would, indeed, have proved he wasn't the messiah if it wasn't for the resurrection.


The trouble is that new testament and all the early christian communities make no sense without the resurrection. They are fundamentally based upon that. If Jesus didn't defeat death by going through death and out the other side he didn't achieve anything - he was just as much a failed messiah as any of the others.


And there you've made the same mistake that Jesus tried so hard to correct - that humility is a bad thing.


On the contrary, it corrects, joins the dots, and completes the idea of what it means to be the Messiah.


Maybe, maybe not, but he quite deliberately did and said things that only YHWH could do and say.


and on you.

Hi,
first off humility and humiliation are not the same things check the definition:

Humility :[SIZE=-1]a disposition to be humble; a lack of false pride.

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Humiliation: state of disgrace or loss of self-respect.

You see every Prophet of God has high humility, however, a Prophet of God will not suffer humiliation, because a Prophet is a ''representative'' of God's way on earth, a perfect example for mankind.


please correct me if i am wrong, YHWY means ''[/SIZE]I AM THAT I AM''

[SIZE=-1]right?

[/SIZE]I mean ,what did jesus actually say that only i am that iam could have said.


[SIZE=-1]this was said to moses as to say to mind his business meaning
'' i am what ever i am just do as i say.'' kinda way .


May peace & blessings of Allah be upon you

Your Brother

Dawud_Islam.









[/SIZE]

 

[DawudIslam]

You are right in implying that Islam has a very different understanding of what it means to be "the word of God" to Christianity. That doesn't make the Islamic understanding the correct one.


Christians recognise God working in much more subtle and powerful ways.


If the traditional authorships are correct, this is simply not true. "Mark's" gospel is Peter's account of events. "John" is 'the beloved disciple', and Luke's is the collected accounts of those who were there, including Mary and the disciples. In any case they are the written products of the oral traditions of those who did know Jesus.


Yes and no. You are correct in implying that it wouldn't be taken as literally true in 2nd temple Jewish thinking, but it becomes literally true in Jesus of Nazareth.


Not in so many words, no. But it's a necessary conclusion to what he said and did. But, of course, if you don't trust anything written by 'Mark', 'Matthew', "Luke", Paul or John then you don't know anything much about Jesus of Nazareth at all. If you reduce the bible to the bits where people are directly quoting God you have very little left (the bible is God speaking, but not in that sort of way), but even the bits you would have make no sense unless Jesus was the crucified and resurrected messiah, fully man and fully God.

Hi,

Just how does the term son of god become literally true in Jesus son of Mary? elaborate plz.

you right in saying i don't trust mark matthew, luke or someone like Paul who hasn't even seen Jesus.

We see that Jesus used to preach the Gospel but what was the Gospel exactly? But the gospels being read today are only ''According to''s

I believe in the Gospel of Jesus, that which he preached.
I don't believe in the Gospel According to Paul etc.

The True Gospel would have been the Literal word of God.
This is better because it is much more easier to confirm whether it is God talking or not you see if it contains even one verse of contradicting nature, it can be concluded as NOT being the word of God.

And by this God makes it easier for mankind to find his word, all you have to do is go through all of the religions and see whether they are perfect, if they are not it is not and cannot be the True Word.

EASy lol

may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon you

your Brother

DawudIslam

 

[DawudIslam]

Should add, that it's in comments like this where the Quran looses all credibility when it comes to talking about Christianity, because Christianity has never held Mary to be part of the Godhead.

Well, there are some sects that see Mary(peace be upon her) as divine, and even the catholics can be classed in this 'Hail Mary'' come to mind. She is considered by some people as the literal mother of god.

 

[heron]

You are right of course that humiliation and humility are two different things. Jesus had a choice to defend himself in court, and chose to stay quiet. He knew that He would endure humiliation, and endured humiliation while He still had the choice to come out on top. He chose to be humble when He could have shaken down the courthouse.

Jesus had already proven that He could calm a blinding storm to protect people, multiply fish and loaves to feed people, and bring sight back to a blind man. With those abilities, He could have taken a different route.

the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation

Definitely. That is what made the act of giving so powerful.

I appreciate your concern about the writers of the gospels -- I think you're talking about the epistles, which do not speak much about the life of Jesus. They are the letters of Paul and other apostles to the churches, staying in contact and helping keep teachings from drifting off into myth.

Paul was trained in Jewish law, so he already knew all the ancient teachings by heart. He would be able to check new ideas against what God already established in scriptures.

"That person is nearest to God, who pardons…him who would have injured him."

When this direct pardon never happens, because the offender stayed stubborn (which happens far too often, especially in extreme abuses), a harmed person can still find release and healing -- God overcomes the power of the curses placed on victims' lives.

Jesus also encourages believers to take on his ability and heavenly authority to release and heal... putting the purpose of compassion above the rigidity of natural outcomes.

 

[Nadiine]

Now a messiah by the definition of the word cannot be crucified as it includes one who must prevail, now this was the reason the jews of old wanted to crucify him because they knew that a messiah cannot be crucified ( i.e. humilated because the crucifixion at that time was also a way of humiliation).

Quite the Contrary, THE CROSS MADE CHRIST VICTORIOUS over the enemies of God and their powers.

Collosians 2:
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us (penalty of law: death penalty for unpaid sin), which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

The problem is how the natural man views power and victory. Natural man uses violence and suppression to control and overtake.
God uses the weak things that the strong (and supposedly WISE) do not understand. In this way, God also brings in the poor, the weak and simple.
HUMILITY is key.

1 Corinthians 1:27
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,

 

[ChristIsTHEKing]

Hi,

Just how does the term son of god become literally true in Jesus son of Mary? elaborate plz.

you right in saying i don't trust mark matthew, luke or someone like Paul who hasn't even seen Jesus.

We see that Jesus used to preach the Gospel but what was the Gospel exactly? But the gospels being read today are only ''According to''s

I believe in the Gospel of Jesus, that which he preached.
I don't believe in the Gospel According to Paul etc.

The True Gospel would have been the Literal word of God.
This is better because it is much more easier to confirm whether it is God talking or not you see if it contains even one verse of contradicting nature, it can be concluded as NOT being the word of God.

And by this God makes it easier for mankind to find his word, all you have to do is go through all of the religions and see whether they are perfect, if they are not it is not and cannot be the True Word.

EASy lol

may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon you

your Brother

DawudIslam

I am curious how you differentiate mohammed from paul.
Both only claim to have been spoken to or seen visions from God, neither physically saw God. What makes mohammed's claims any more valid than paul's?

No where does the Bible contradict itself, it does in different books compliment to what has already been written. To pull out portions of the Bible and say this is valid and this isn't provides only confusion and would render the Bible useless and one's faith useless.

You mentioned that muslims believe it was not Jesus on the cross, simply because a prophet would not suffer humiliation? So being born in a dirty stable, with smelly animals is not humiliating to even the what you believe as a prophet of God? Either one must believe all of the Bible or they must believe none of it.

I would remind you the Lord said this:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Peace

 

[ebia]

Hi,

Just how does the term son of god become literally true in Jesus son of Mary? elaborate plz.

Jesus is the culmination of what Israel is about, and as Israel was metaphorically the Son of God, so Jesus is quite literally the Son of God. What was metaphorically true of Israel becomes literally true in its culmination in Jesus of Nazareth.

you right in saying i don't trust mark matthew, luke or someone like Paul who hasn't even seen Jesus.

Well, Paul had seen Jesus on the Road to Damascus. If you reject what Paul and the gospel authors wrote about Jesus you have virtually nothing left.

We see that Jesus used to preach the Gospel but what was the Gospel exactly? But the gospels being read today are only ''According to''s

You are reading rather too much into that (extra-biblical) phrase.

I believe in the Gospel of Jesus, that which he preached.

Without the accounts of Paul, John, Luke, etc you know absolutely nothing about what he preached. If you trust them to accurately record his speach then you have no reason to not similarly trust them to record his actions (which are as much a part of his ministry and teaching as his speach).

I don't believe in the Gospel According to Paul etc.

Then you

The True Gospel would have been the Literal word of God.

In your opinion. The gospel is a message - an announcement, that can and is expressed in a variety of different ways but most fully in the actions of Jesus.

This is better because it is much more easier to confirm whether it is God talking or not you see if it contains even one verse of contradicting nature, it can be concluded as NOT being the word of God.

Then the Quran is stuffed. The bible, on the other hand, is not the literal word of God in that way. It's inspired by God so that the (literal) Word of God (Jesus of Nazareth) can speak through it.

And by this God makes it easier for mankind to find his word, all you have to do is go through all of the religions and see whether they are perfect, if they are not it is not and cannot be the True Word.

Circular reasoning - you have no basis for knowing that God would limit himself to working in this kind of way. But of course Islam is stuffed on that basis - the Quran claims this kind of thing about itself, fails, and then has to fudge the books. The bible makes no such claim about itself.

EASy lol

may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon you

your Brother

DawudIslam[/quote]

 

[ebia]

Hi,
first off humility and humiliation are not the same things check the definition:

Humility :[SIZE=-1]a disposition to be humble; a lack of false pride.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Humiliation: state of disgrace or loss of self-respect.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]You see every Prophet of God has high humility, however, a Prophet of God will not suffer humiliation, because a Prophet is a ''representative'' of God's way on earth, a perfect example for mankind.

[/SIZE]
You contradict yourself. Putting oneself about humiliation is essentially lacking in humility.


[SIZE=-1]

[SIZE=-1]please correct me if i am wrong, YHWY means ''[/SIZE]I AM THAT I AM''

[SIZE=-1]right?[/SIZE]

Probably.[/SIZE]

I mean ,what did jesus actually say that only i am that iam could have said.

Um. "Your sins are forgiven." "I am the way...". A whole heap of allusions to YHWH returning to Zion that are talking about himself...

 

[ebia]

Well, there are some sects that see Mary(peace be upon her) as divine,

Only ever very short lived, very small, minority sects. It's never been remotely mainstream thinking.

and even the catholics can be classed in this 'Hail Mary'' come to mind. She is considered by some people as the literal mother of god.

Catholics do not see Mary as divine though. The idea that they do is a misundersanding and therein lies the problem - what the Quran has to say about Christianity is based on a misunderstanding. Whoever wrote it didn't understand the idea of Trinity, thought Christians worshipped Mary as divine, and missed out the Holy Spirit.

 

[DawudIslam]

I am curious how you differentiate mohammed from paul.
Both only claim to have been spoken to or seen visions from God, neither physically saw God. What makes mohammed's claims any more valid than paul's?



No where does the Bible contradict itself, it does in different books compliment to what has already been written. To pull out portions of the Bible and say this is valid and this isn't provides only confusion and would render the Bible useless and one's faith useless.

You mentioned that muslims believe it was not Jesus on the cross, simply because a prophet would not suffer humiliation? So being born in a dirty stable, with smelly animals is not humiliating to even the what you believe as a prophet of God? Either one must believe all of the Bible or they must believe none of it.

I would remind you the Lord said this:

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

Peace

Hi, thanks for the reply.

Well, as NO PROPHET ever physically saw God and Muhammad(saw) never claimed seeing Him on Earth, ever,, i wouldn't say Muhammad (saw) was wrong, the fact that Muhammad(Saw) preformed miracles such as only prophets would do e.g. : providing water from his hands for the thursty, splitting the moon, curing the blind, and more over the Quran being the biggest miracle granted to him and his people.

why the Quran ?

It is so advanced in language that it is only and can only be from God, an example is the FACT that ALL jewish scholars MUST know Quranic arabic before they can be scholars, the reason being that the quranic arabic holds the key to the revival of the old testament e.g.

When Moses said: Hear O Isreal! The Lord Thy God is One( this word would be EHAD or such, in hebrew) The Quran says :

Say: He is God, the One and Only;

Arabic transcript: [SIZE=-1]Qul huwa Allahu ahad

The Quran showed the jews the TRUE meaning of Ehad
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It says that God is without equal, without origin, without end, and unlike anything else that exists. The fourth line, "Nothing is like Him", is a fundamental statement of tanzhi; God as the incomparable.
it reminded them of the forgotten meaning milenia prior to Muhammad (saw).

Because of this jewish scholars refer to the Quran to interpret the Torah, who would have remembered these thousands of years old lost words except The True God Who revealed it beforehand?


As Muhammad (SAW), as a FACT was a direct descendant of Abraham(as) through Ismeal(as). AND the fact that Paul WAS NOT, makes it easier for us to decide which one is lying about jesus, and let us not forget, Paul NEVER saw Jesus. physically, Muhammad(saw), saw Gabriel(as) in physical form, just like the prophets before e.g. Abraham, jacob, Moses, NONE of them EVER claimed to have seen, God, NO MAN CAN in earth.

Why would you believe paul who is not a descendant of Abraham, has not seen Jesus (as) physically, spoken with him or prayed or walked with him? he wasn't even one of his disciples, the fact is that the books of the new testament were ALL written by people who have never seen Jesus Christ(AS).


Secondly;
Concerning the stable, it is not humiliation, but to show that he was a man common to the miseries that we are, such as being given birth and making his mother impure for 40 days. To show that God cannot be born or be given birth by a woman, for He is not man.

Its was to show humbleness. that any man can do the work of God because Jesus(as) was born as you were born but without a father just like Adam(as) was created without a father or MOTHER. For Jesus to be a PERFECT, example to all of us that God is with those who stand up for the weak and poor.




Peace & Blessing of Allah be upon you

Your Brother

DawudIslam

 

[DawudIslam]

Only ever very short lived, very small, minority sects. It's never been remotely mainstream thinking.


Catholics do not see Mary as divine though. The idea that they do is a misundersanding and therein lies the problem - what the Quran has to say about Christianity is based on a misunderstanding. Whoever wrote it didn't understand the idea of Trinity, thought Christians worshipped Mary as divine, and missed out the Holy Spirit.

The Idea is that Allah will address even the smallest short lasted sects, for Allah, Sees and Hears all.

The Day of Judgment will be a day where every small and great thing will be held in account , Allah is The Best to Judge all.

So it is not a Misunderstanding or contradiction rather a Clarification

 

[DawudIslam]

Jesus is the culmination of what Israel is about, and as Israel was metaphorically the Son of God, so Jesus is quite literally the Son of God. What was metaphorically true of Israel becomes literally true in its culmination in Jesus of Nazareth.


Well, Paul had seen Jesus on the Road to Damascus. If you reject what Paul and the gospel authors wrote about Jesus you have virtually nothing left.


You are reading rather too much into that (extra-biblical) phrase.


Without the accounts of Paul, John, Luke, etc you know absolutely nothing about what he preached. If you trust them to accurately record his speach then you have no reason to not similarly trust them to record his actions (which are as much a part of his ministry and teaching as his speach).



Then you


In your opinion. The gospel is a message - an announcement, that can and is expressed in a variety of different ways but most fully in the actions of Jesus.


Then the Quran is stuffed. The bible, on the other hand, is not the literal word of God in that way. It's inspired by God so that the (literal) Word of God (Jesus of Nazareth) can speak through it.


Circular reasoning - you have no basis for knowing that God would limit himself to working in this kind of way. But of course Islam is stuffed on that basis - the Quran claims this kind of thing about itself, fails, and then has to fudge the books. The bible makes no such claim about itself.

EASy lol

may the peace and blessing of Allah be upon you

your Brother

DawudIslam

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Hi, peace be upon you

First off Paul saw Jesus in a ''vision'' , on the road to Damascus, why was he traveling , he was a bounty hunter who was persecuting the early Christians, who believed Jesus to be a Prophet and Messiah NOT SON OF GOD OR GOD, Paul saw him in a dream( according to him) and said things to paul which he had never uttered in front of his disciples?

When Paul went to these Christians( who were actually Muslims as they believed the same) they said he was blasphemous, and were angry at him, because they were taught by the disciples of Jesus WHO MET ATE AND PRAYED with Jesus(as) . Paul said jesus was the son of God or God was in him , this is blasphemy in the religion of Father Abraham(as).

The same for mathew mark and such THERE IS NO PROOF that they were EVEN who they say they are than how can you take it to be the inspired word of God.



I totally agree with the part where the actions of Jesus were The Gospel, you see in Islam we are tuaght the Muhammad(saw) was the walking Quran. You see Muhammad(saw) and Jesus/Isa (as) have much more in common than you could think of.

Please brothers and sisters keep in mind, Muhammad (saw) is not a man preaching something new, but he was a descendant of Abraham preaching the pure faith of God being ONE. He was a guide and mercy to mankind. While Jesus (may Allah Love him) was sent to the Children of Israel.:
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But he answered and said, I was sent only unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matthew 15:24


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