Cribstyl

[Joe67]

k4c,

This thread sounds like a detective's interrogation (inquisition) rather than a discussion whereby each party expresses their belief and understanding.

Others have attacked SdA beliefs in other threads, rather than witnessing to what they believe and understand on a given line of thought. Some who do this, do not understand that is what they are doing. They are following the example of others that they admire.

The 12 disciples communicated with each other after this fashion until they were converted through the disappointment and humiliation of Jesus' being treated as a criminal, though what our Lord said to Nathaniel about having no guile gives me to see Nathaniel as being cautious concerning his speech.

If all agreed on the same set of words, then there would not be any need for the unity of the Spirit. The unity of the Spirit is like unity with your spouse after 40 years of marriage. Respectful differences of knowledge, wisdom and understanding, which is different than forced agreements do to human necessity and desires. We all enter marriage through the pressure of a phase of human necessity (body, financial, political). But, thank the Lord, he slowly purifies us from our corrupt motives, which seemed very admirable to us in the beginning.

I hope the tenor of this thread changes into a discussion. The question of "our worshiping other gods" is a valuable question to pursue. This is our iniquity when we are desiring to please the Lord. Like king David, we put the ark of the Lord on an oxcart, thinking to do good. Sin rises up and slays us spiritually and we become angry. Then our peace in Jesus is gone and we do not know where our bridegroom has gone and we wander in the streets looking for him.

Hopefully we do not sit and eat and drink with the drunken and start beating our fellow servants. The Lord is going to restore Judah with Samaria and Sodom as daughters. See Ezekiel.

Your brother in the Lord Jesus Christ,
Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

This thread sounds like a detective's interrogation (inquisition) rather than a discussion whereby each party expresses their belief and understanding.

I agree.

Others have attacked SdA beliefs in other threads

I agree. Sadly, there have been plenty of attacks to go around, sometimes among those who claim to have a distaste for such dialogue. Often on both sides of the table. That's why it's refreshing when there are appeals to kinder dialogue.

Some who do this, do not understand that is what they are doing. They are following the example of others that they admire.

Or perhaps they are merely following their natural inclinations without realizing it. We tend to look at one another as "all bad" and "all good," when in fact there is much good in all of us . . . and some bad.

If all agreed on the same set of words, then there would not be any need for the unity of the Spirit. The unity of the Spirit is like unity with your spouse after 40 years of marriage. Respectful differences of knowledge, wisdom and understanding, which is different than forced agreements do to human necessity and desires.

True. Good point. I agree.

I hope the tenor of this thread changes into a discussion.

Me too.

BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Because the Spirit has convicted me that there is only one God...

Which you would know nothing about except through the Law...

 

[Revelation 14:6-12]

Our Lord Jesus was begotten from the tomb with a spiritual body of flesh and bones.

Ps 2:7
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. KJV

Luke 24:37-40
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
KJV

Eph 5:30
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. KJV

He was born of Mary with a natural body of flesh and blood, yet holy and without sin. He was called the son of the highest.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: KJV

Rom 1:4
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: KJV

1 Cor 15:44
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. KJV

Joe

Indeed, but I was wondering to where the orginal question was leading.

 

[Joe67]

The complete worship of God the Father, is in the man who he raised from the dead. God will judge the world through this man of the resurrection, who he ordained, wherein he gives all men assurance.

Paul was in his bonds because of his teaching on the resurrection of Jesus, not only as a historical fact, but as to its power and wisdom and purpose. Many of the Pharisaical believers in Jesus were in agreement as to the fact of the resurrection, but it is the significance of the resurrection wherein they were in disagreement with Paul.

The only way not to worship other gods of wood and stone, from either the Jewish or Greek understanding, while thinking to worship Jesus, is to understand, through the earnest of the Spirit of grace, the fullness of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ that is given unto and upon us in our eternal Father's grace, in his eternal purpose that he purpose in Jesus Christ before the world began.

Rom 3:21-24
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: KJV

Deut 29:4
4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. KJV

Rev 3:22
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. KJV

The ministration of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministration of the lively stones and the wood covered with gold, though the ministration of the lively stones and the wood covered with gold is glorious and is useful for a little while in our sojourn that is given unto us.

Complete redemption is in the man who God, the Father, raised from the dead and set at his right hand.

He told the old prophet, "Don't go back the way you came." "Don't look behind you," the angel told Lot. Sodom and its commerce of buying and selling was a beautiful and pleasant place.

Let us not eat the sacrifices to the dead and then rise up to fornicate, as they did at Baal-Peor.

Let us not look for the living among the dead. He is not now speaking to us from the mountain that burned with fire and blackness, but he is speaking to us, through his blood, from the new Jerusalem which is above.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Which you would know nothing about except through the Law...

Seems foreign to me to limit God in this manner.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1; Not consciously. However, because I continue to sin in one point, I am guilty in all points. So I am currently guilty of worshipping other Gods . . . . as all of us are!

So you admit that there are times when you may unknowingly or by vertue of a weak moment violated some godly standard that has been set and that it's the Spirit of God who makes you awear of it. Isn't the grace and love of God a beautiful thing in that God does not condemn you for it? But what do you do once the Spirit makes you awear of your sin? Do you willfully continue in that sin so that grace may abound?

Because the Spirit has convicted me that there is only one God -- the same God who said I Am that I am -- and He is the only God I should worship.

BFA

The Bible clearly says there is more than one god in the world. Even Satan is called the god of this world. So are you being deceived by this spirit you follow? Should the true Spirit lead us into truth?

The Bible clearly says God is one, not that there is only one god.

Now, you say you have identified the one true God but whoever said you need to worship Him only?

There is only one place where it is written for us to worship God only and its found in Exodus 20:3, also known as, the first commandment. Every other mention of worshiping God only has it's root in the first commandment. Even Jesus Himself understood this.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only...'

The Spirit of God convicts of sin. Every sin commited has it's root and authority in God's Law. If the Law is done away with then you should have no desire or even a conviction for worshiping the one God only. But you do have a conviction and you do repent when the Spirit of the one true God points out sin in your life, even if their is no fear of punishment for that sin. Behold the power of love.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

So you admit that there are times when you may unknowingly or by vertue of a weak moment violated some godly standard that has been set and that it's the Spirit of God who makes you awear of it.

It would be silly for me to deny it. This is the human condition. And yes, it is the Spirit who makes me aware of it.

Isn't the grace and love of God a beautiful thing in that God does not condemn you for it?

Absolutely, it is.

But what do you do once the Spirit makes you awear of your sin? Do you willfully continue in that sin so that grace may abound?

Sadly, we all do. There is none perfect, not even one. Any man who sins in one point is guilty of all.

The Bible clearly says there is more than one god in the world. Even Satan is called the god of this world. So are you being deceived by this spirit you follow? Should the true Spirit lead us into truth?

Yes, the Holy Spirit leads us into truth and I have no reason to doubt it. Further, any man who claims he has not been guilty in serving other gods is probably deceiving himself.

Now, you say you have identified the one true God but whoever said you need to worship Him only?

Why do I feel like I'm giving a deposition? This question has been asked and answered. The answer is the Holy Spirit.

There is only one place where it is written for us to worship God only and its found in Exodus 20:3, also known as, the first commandment.

Yes. I agree that there are principles found in all old covenant laws that continue to have value for us today. I believe I've confirmed that several times over the last few years that I've been posting here. Perhaps you've missed some of my prior posts on this subject.

Every other mention of worshiping God only has it's root in the first commandment.

This assumes that only the law -- and not the Spirit -- convicts us with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment. I haven't found a basis for this conclusion.

The Spirit of God convicts of sin. Every sin commited has it's root and authority in God's Law. If the Law is done away with then you should have no desire or even a conviction for worshiping the one God only.

The Spirit is God. The law is not. With the Spirit, I have all the motivation I need. The law is a poor motivator.

Behold the power of love.

Boy, I sure would love to see that in action here in these threads.

Do you suppose we'll ever be able to return to 2-way dialogue, or will our ongoing dialogue continue to be a 1-way interrogation? At some point, that will become tiresome.

So, in the spirit of resuming 2-way dialogue, would you be willing to answer your own questions? Do you now serve other gods? Have you ever served other gods?

BFA

 

[k4c]

It would be silly for me to deny it. This is the human condition. And yes, it is the Spirit who makes me aware of it.

Absolutely, it is.

Sadly, we all do. There is none perfect, not even one. Any man who sins in one point is guilty of all.

Yes, the Holy Spirit leads us into truth and I have no reason to doubt it. Further, any man who claims he has not been guilty in serving other gods is probably deceiving himself.

Why do I feel like I'm giving a deposition? This question has been asked and answered. The answer is the Holy Spirit.

Yes. I agree that there are principles found in all old covenant laws that continue to have value for us today. I believe I've confirmed that several times over the last few years that I've been posting here. Perhaps you've missed some of my prior posts on this subject.

This assumes that only the law -- and not the Spirit -- convicts us with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment. I haven't found a basis for this conclusion.

The Spirit is God. The law is not. With the Spirit, I have all the motivation I need. The law is a poor motivator.

Boy, I sure would love to see that in action here in these threads.

Do you suppose we'll ever be able to return to 2-way dialogue, or will our ongoing dialogue continue to be a 1-way interrogation? At some point, that will become tiresome.

So, in the spirit of resuming 2-way dialogue, would you be willing to answer your own questions? Do you now serve other gods? Have you ever served other gods?

BFA

What saith the Scriptures.

The Spirit convicts of sin, the Law defines sin ie: worship God only, no need for the Law on stone because God will write it in your heart through His Spirit living and abiding in you. The Spirit will take that which belongs to God and give it to you. The Spirit will not make up His own rules nor will He contridict what God has already said. This is why you desire to worship God only, whether you fall at times or not. Remember, a righteousness man may fall seven times but he will get back up. Keep studying, you're almost there.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The Spirit convicts of sin, the Law defines sin ie

The Spirit is God. God is the author of the law. God is also the fulfillment of the law. God is not limited by law.

The Spirit will not make up His own rules nor will He contridict what God has already said.

The Spirit is God and God does not contradict Himself. God is the original author. He alone is sovereign.

The ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones because the ministry of the Spirit brings life and the ministry of letters engraved on stones brings death.

no need for the Law on stone because God will write it in your heart through His Spirit living and abiding in you.

Essentially we are in agreement on this point. However, Hebrews 8 confirms that the things He writes are not carbon copies of the old covenant. Nonetheless, there are principles throughout the old covenant that continue to be valuable.

Keep studying, you're almost there.

Great advice. I've never stopped.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1 The Spirit is God. God is the author of the law. God is also the fulfillment of the law. God is not limited by law.

God is limited by righteousness and truth for God cannot lie...truth never changes because God never changes.

Psalm 119:142 Your righteousness is everlasting and your law is true.

The Spirit is God and God does not contradict Himself. God is the original author. He alone is sovereign.

God will not contradict Himself...Amen. This is a principle you and Crib need to understand.

Essentially we are in agreement on this point. However, Hebrews 8 confirms that the things He writes are not carbon copies of the old covenant. Nonetheless, there are principles throughout the old covenant that continue to be valuable.

Great advice. I've never stopped.

BFA

Everyone of the Ten Commandments have been confirmed in the New Covenant.

The New Covenant confirms God only is to be worshiped.

Matthew 4:10 Then Jesus said to him, "Away with you, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve."

Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before Me.''

The New Covenant confirms idolatry as a sin.

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make yourselves any idols neither shall you worship them.

The New Covenant confirms God's Name is holy.

Luke 1:49 because the Powerful One has done great things for me. His name is holy.

Exodus 20:7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

The New Covenant confirms the Sabbath. Jesus confirms He is Lord of THE Sabbath. The word (THE) is referring to a specific amount of holy time identified in the fourth commandment as the Sabbath day.

Mark 2:28 "Therefore the Son of Man is also Lord of the Sabbath."

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Matthew 12:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.''

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

The New Covenant confirms honoring our mother and father and in doing so we have a promise. This promise was established in the fifth commandment.

Ephesians 6:1-2 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. "Honor your father and mother,'' which is the first commandment with promise: "that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth."

Exodus 20:12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.''

The New Covenant confirms murder as a sin.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The New Covenant confirms adultery as a sin.

Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery".

The New Covenant confirms stealing as a sin.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, a thief, an evildoer, or as a busybody in other people's matters.

Exodus 20:15 "You shall not steal".

The New Covenant confirms lying as a sin.

Ephesians 4:25 Therefore, putting away lying, each one speak truth with his neighbor, for we are members of one another.

Exodus 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

The New Covenant confirms coveting as a sin.

Luke 12:15 And He said to them, "Take heed and beware of covetousness.

Exodus 20:17 "You shall not covet".

Stop kicking against the truth because in doing so you are kicking against God and may lead many astray.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Hi K4C . . .

Any chance you might be willing to answer your own questions? Do you now serve other gods? Have you ever served other gods?

God is limited by righteousness and truth for God cannot lie.

Not sure I know how to relate to your limited God.

God will not contradict Himself...Amen. This is a principle you and Crib need to understand.

I understand God as well as a human can. I'm sure all of us struggle with a lack of understanding.

Everyone of the Ten Commandments have been confirmed in the New Covenant.

Have all of the old covenant commands been confirmed in the new covenant? If not, then we have a quandry, for we cannot conclude that any jots and tittles have passed unless all have passed.

Stop kicking against the truth.

I'm sure there are many things I don't understand. It is also true that our individual understanding of truth differs. That shouldn't concern us too much. There are none who understand.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Byfaithalone1 Hi K4C . . .

Any chance you might be willing to answer your own questions? Do you now serve other gods? Have you ever served other gods?

No I don't... and if by chance I do and God points it out to me I will make the corrections.

Not sure I know how to relate to your limited God.

I don't limit God to His Law but He has revealed these things to His people in order that we can open the door for Him to work in our lives thus removing limitations we put on Him through sin.

I understand God as well as a human can. I'm sure all of us struggle with a lack of understanding.

What God has given His people to know, we can know and He wants us to know what kind of things can separate us from Him and eventually destroy us in the end.

Have all of the old covenant commands been confirmed in the new covenant? If not, then we have a quandry, for we cannot conclude that any jots and tittles have passed unless all have passed.

What God has revealed to us is ours and you can plainly see everyone one of the Ten Commandments has been confirmed in the NC. What we can see plainly is what we're accountable to.

I'm sure there are many things I don't understand. It is also true that our individual understanding of truth differs. That shouldn't concern us too much.

It does when you try to do away with that which God has plainly revealed.

There are none who understand.

After the pouring out of God's Spirit to lead us into all truth do you now limit God by your statement?

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Eph 5:17 Therefore, do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

1 John 5:20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

What God has revealed to us is ours and you can plainly see everyone one of the Ten Commandments has been confirmed in the NC. What we can see plainly is what we're accountable to.

I'm not sure how this relates to my question. Can you help me find the connection?

It does when you try to do away with that which God has plainly revealed.

I am not an advocate of "doing away."

After the pouring out of God's Spirit to lead us into all truth do you now limit God by your statement?

No. It is the Bible (not I) who confirms the limitations of man (not the limitations of God). I find Romans 3 to be persuasive on this point.

BFA

 

[k4c]

No. It is the Bible (not I) who confirms the limitations of man (not the limitations of God). I find Romans 3 to be persuasive on this point.

BFA

Do you really think it applies to all people from when it was written to all eternity or do you think there are some who will understand and who do understand?

 

[Revelation 14:6-12]

...The ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones because the ministry of the Spirit brings life and the ministry of letters engraved on stones brings death. ...

But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 2 Corinthians 3:7

Which Glory was done away? The Glory of Moses face. Not the Ten Commandments.

And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Corinthians 3:13

Please re-read 2 Corinthians 3 a little closer with me.

Would you mind if I recommend a small study book on the subject of God's grace and law?

Does-God's-Grace-Blot-Out-the-Law?

...and another on why the Old Covenant failed:

Why-the-Old-Covenant-Failed

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Do you really think it applies to all people from when it was written to all eternity or do you think there are some who will understand and who do understand?

Passage seems pretty clear to me. All sin. There are none who understand.

BFA

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Please re-read 2 Corinthians 3 a little closer with me.

Sounds like a good idea. Here are my thoughts on the chapter.

1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again?

Whenever we assert that there are some who understand and some who do not willfully sin, we commend ourselves again (see Verses 4-5 below).

Or do we need, as some, letters of commendation to you or from you? 2 You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Notice that it is not the law that is being written here. It is the "you" referenced above.

4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Notice that this is a passage that speaks to the nature of the new covenant. Under the new covenant, the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. What is "the letter?" In the next few verses, it's defined for us.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

Here the letter is defined. It is, in fact, letters engraved on stones. Which letters? Verses 7 and 13 clarify that it is the letters that caused Moses to put a veil over his face. These are the letters that were handed down at Sinai. These same letters are the ministry of death. They came with glory, but that glory was fading.

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

Notice that the ministry of the Spirit is even more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones.

For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

Continuing in the symmetry of the passage, the ministry of letters engraved on stones is referred to as "the ministry of condemnation." The ministry of the Spirit is referred to as "the ministry of righteousness.

For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

More confirmation that the ministry of the Spirit is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones.

For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Continuing with the symmetry, that which fades is the ministry of letters engraved on stones. That which remains is the ministry of the Spirit.

Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

"That which was fading away" has already been defined previously in the passage. It is the glory from the ministry of letters engraved on stones.

But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ.

The source of the veil is here identified as the reading of the old covenant. Exodus 19-20 confirms that the old covenant included the ten commandments. The context of this chapter further confirms that the old covenant included the ministry of letters engraved on stones.

But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

The veil comes from reading the old covenant. The symbolic veil worn by Moses came as a result of the ten commandments. Whenever a person turns to the Lord, this veil is taken away.

Thanks for suggesting a deeper exploration. When the entire chapter is read in its full context, it tells a compelling story.

BFA

 

[k4c]

Passage seems pretty clear to me. All sin. There are none who understand.

BFA

No doubt all have sinned and no doubt there are none who understand. But do you need to continue sinning and once you realize your ignorance in a certain matter can you seek for understanding? Is God a liar when He says if you ask for wisdom He will give it? People choose to sin and people choose to stay in darkness. I'm sure there are sins you use to do but you no longer do and I'm sure there are things you didn't understand but now you do.

I think we need to end our discussions because I don't have much time.

 

[Joe67]

Passage seems pretty clear to me. All sin. There are none who understand.

BFA

Amen and amen.

Joe