Creflo $ Setting A Bad Example

[BenAdam]

So then to avoid answering directly, you would manuver yourself into a position to give some standard text?

To be honest, I thought more highly of you.

Honestly, I don't have the time right now to find some sources. I felt this was more of a casual conversation. Would be a good topic to discuss in another thread.

 

[Waddell]

Honestly, I don't have the time right now to find some sources. I felt this was more of a casual conversation. Would be a good topic to discuss in another thread.

I understand. Please forgive me for pressing.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Agreed, you know something funny I just thought about well it's not funny but...... The church and state is "suppose to be sepereate" but the government was based off of christian princples and beliefs from what I have learn". Remember when you read the next part remember it's "seperate" but when it comes to going to court you have to swear on the bible, but why if it's "seperate". The government choses what rules to enforce and not.Which beliefs to accept and which ones not to. It's alot of corruption going on in the worl these days hard to tell soemtimes who is and who isn't but all we can do is pray and hope for better.

Yeah. That is so true. The government really has shades of hypocrisy. It's like you said they pick and choose what they want to enforce.

 

[BenAdam]

I understand. Please forgive me for pressing.

Nothing to forgive, it's all good.

 

[eizeneers]

Just a few points.....

We need to make a distinction between what is done with personal funds vs. ministry funds. Many of these well-known ministers derive a significant amount of income from honorariums, conferences, book & tape sales, etc. that may not be ministry funds. The amounts that one can make from a best-selling book might allow the minister to live in a manner that others consider extravagant, but there is no sin in that, nor is it an abuse of the tax-exempt status of the ministry. Likewise with a gift - if the congregation collects money to give to the pastor (not to the ministry) for a car, it is a gift from the individuals directly to him. We may not think that with how he spends it is wise, but there is no sin in it. As Paul says, "all things are lawful for me but not all things are expedient."

Secondly, much of the scrutiny is coming on ministries because there are so many reports of abuses out there. The IRS currently does not have much power to examine ministries, because churches do not file a Form 990 like PBS or PETA do, to disclose their activities publicly. The IRS cannot initiate an audit if there is no report to audit, that is why they are trying other means to examine these ministries. Judgment does begin in the house of the Lord, and if we do not do a good job of examining ourselves, soberly, it is probably just a matter of time before the legal system of this country does find a way to hold ministries to a higher standard of accountability.

 

[TexasBluebonnet]

Just a few points.....

We need to make a distinction between what is done with personal funds vs. ministry funds. Many of these well-known ministers derive a significant amount of income from honorariums, conferences, book & tape sales, etc. that may not be ministry funds. The amounts that one can make from a best-selling book might allow the minister to live in a manner that others consider extravagant, but there is no sin in that, nor is it an abuse of the tax-exempt status of the ministry. Likewise with a gift - if the congregation collects money to give to the pastor (not to the ministry) for a car, it is a gift from the individuals directly to him. We may not think that with how he spends it is wise, but there is no sin in it. As Paul says, "all things are lawful for me but not all things are expedient."

Secondly, much of the scrutiny is coming on ministries because there are so many reports of abuses out there. The IRS currently does not have much power to examine ministries, because churches do not file a Form 990 like PBS or PETA do, to disclose their activities publicly. The IRS cannot initiate an audit if there is no report to audit, that is why they are trying other means to examine these ministries. Judgment does begin in the house of the Lord, and if we do not do a good job of examining ourselves, soberly, it is probably just a matter of time before the legal system of this country does find a way to hold ministries to a higher standard of accountability.

You bring up some very good points. Especially about the money made for personal funds and gifts. I hadn't considered that myself.

 

[Waddell]

I think history bears it out. Kings are the only authority we ever see scripturally installed. However I do believe a Christian should honorably subject himself to the gov't that has rule over them.

I absolutely agree with you. However, this country takes it's charter from the opening phrase of "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

And "we the people" have determined that we are a country of Laws, not of "Oprah Winfery" like emotional responses. That's what has made, and kept, this country great. If we lose that, we lose everything.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Just a few points.....

We need to make a distinction between what is done with personal funds vs. ministry funds. Many of these well-known ministers derive a significant amount of income from honorariums, conferences, book & tape sales, etc. that may not be ministry funds. The amounts that one can make from a best-selling book might allow the minister to live in a manner that others consider extravagant, but there is no sin in that, nor is it an abuse of the tax-exempt status of the ministry. Likewise with a gift - if the congregation collects money to give to the pastor (not to the ministry) for a car, it is a gift from the individuals directly to him. We may not think that with how he spends it is wise, but there is no sin in it. As Paul says, "all things are lawful for me but not all things are expedient."

Secondly, much of the scrutiny is coming on ministries because there are so many reports of abuses out there. The IRS currently does not have much power to examine ministries, because churches do not file a Form 990 like PBS or PETA do, to disclose their activities publicly. The IRS cannot initiate an audit if there is no report to audit, that is why they are trying other means to examine these ministries. Judgment does begin in the house of the Lord, and if we do not do a good job of examining ourselves, soberly, it is probably just a matter of time before the legal system of this country does find a way to hold ministries to a higher standard of accountability.

All churches though still fill out taxes in some way. My father-in-law's parent church got audited years ago. You can check it all out at www.wikipedia.org and put in there Indianapolis Baptist Temple.

Also, any news on this whole thing?

 

[franky67]

Another good reason to support "flat tax"

 

[BenAdam]

Another good reason to support "flat tax"

Amen Franky!

 

[NotAlreadyObtained]

I'm a little disappointed in Creflo's response, not because of a doctrinal disagreement or because I agree with the probe, but because he is missing an opportunity to conduct himself in a manner above reproach. We're told that the government exists not to harm the righteous, but to punish the wicked. In fact, God himself has established the authority that the government wields. There are cases when governments and authorities wrongly persecute the church, but at those times, we're comforted to know that those persecuted for the sake of Christ will be rewarded. As it says, in the day that we are brought before the authorities, there will be only good works to present as evidence and the accuser will be ashamed. We are to represent Christ before the world, and from the many media articles I've read, most are interpreting Creflo's stance as more an admission of guilt that an appeal for due process. I am in no position to judge his guilt or innocence in this matter, but it is always my desire that the church shine brightly in the midst of a crooked and depraved generation.

 

[MoonlightWaves]

There's something not right about Creflo. I don't trust him at all. There are video clips on youtube that says alot about him

 

[Christina M]

There's something not right about Creflo. I don't trust him at all. There are video clips on youtube that says alot about him

So you know him personally? You know enough about him to post that "something is not right" about him?


Please. Have more integrity than that.

 

[Christina M]

The only "example" Creflo is showing is to honor the IRS.... he is asking that only those in proper channels ask for the records. He is not hiding a thing. The IRS is the only agency he must report to. Grassley should have gone thru proper channels.

 

[MoonlightWaves]

You should have more intergrity Christina M. What did I do to you? I was not attacking you, I don't even know you.

Why did I even bother to join this board.

 

[MoonlightWaves]

Go to youtube and type in "Creflo Dollar denies the divinity of Christ" since love him so much.

 

[dkbwarrior]

Go to youtube and type in "Creflo Dollar denies the divinity of Christ" since love him so much.

Look, I don't want to jump on you, or offend....

But I have been listening to Creflo Dollar for many years. He believes that Jesus was fully God, and fully man, just like the rest of evangelical Christianity.

I don't care how many clips you can find that may be strung together or misrepresented to say something different. I know better.

You cant just take for granted everything you see or hear.

Peace...

 

[~RENEE~]

Go to youtube and type in "Creflo Dollar denies the divinity of Christ" since love him so much.

REAAAAALLLY?

[FONT=Geneva,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] Statement of Beliefs

[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At World Changers Church International we believe:

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]…Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He was crucified, died and was buried. On the third day, He rose from the dead and later ascended into heaven, where He remains at the right hand of God Almighty.

…after death, eternal life begins either in heaven or hell. Where you spend eternity is based on your decision to make Jesus Christ your Lord and Savior.

…that when the Rapture occurs, the dead in Christ will rise first, and then those who are alive and remain (those have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior) will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

…the Bible was written and inspired by God.

…faith is acting on the Word of God.

…in water baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

…in the authority of Jesus' name.

…in the indwelling of, and baptism of, the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

…in divine healing—the restoration of health to those who believe and act on the truths written in God's Word. We further believe that Jesus is our Healer and that by His stripes we are already healed.

…tithes and offerings should be freely given to your local church. The local church is the place of membership where God has called you to receive His Word on a consistent basis and to grow spiritually.

…in giving alms to the poor, sick, homeless and others in despair.[/FONT]

this is from his website.[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]

 

[immersedingrace]

And he didn't spend donor's money on lawyers when he stated he was a Roman Citizen.

And if those donors watch his programs and follow his ministry (as they should if they support him) they will know this is going on and stop sending him money. If they continue to send money to the ministry then they have no right to cry foul when it's spent on legal fees. Any support that goes to a ministry is to meet ministry expenses. Having a lawyer on retainer and on certain matters is a ministry expense. If they don't like that then they shouldn't be sending him money!!! They have no right to complain how the ministry spends money as long as it's legal, moral, and ethical. He's doing the legal, moral, and ethical thing by holding the government to their own stated rules. The IRS should be handling this. The government already has their hands too far in ministry affairs as it is.

 

[immersedingrace]

That relation doesn't hold across different things. For instance food costs across the US (and cars for that matter) do not swing nearly as widely as real estate prices. If you told me a minister was given $100 by some poor Mexicans living in rural Mexico, I would have a huge issue with a minister accepting that, however if it were in San Diego it would be much different.

so he would have been better off offending the people in Mexico just because YOU would have an issue with it? Who's to say that his accepting that money wouldn't turn out to be a bigger blessing to the community by him giving it back to the community....and I don't get why people get upset with ministers or people in christian fields having money or nice things. Those things can be used for the kingdom...yes, even a rolls royce or a bentley or a private island in the bahama's! ALL of those things can be used for the glory of God. It's God's place to determine whether or not someone accepts an extravagant gift. yes, I think it's extravagant and I wouldn't personally want to buy my pastor a rolls royce, BUT if the church collected for a car and my husband and I chose to participate, I have no right to be upset if we raise enough to buy a couple cars and they spend it on one. That was out of my hands the second the money left my hands.